tell me what you like about gothic?

Can't we all get along?

I've seen plenty of goths hanging around the local mall, dressed to raise an eyebrow or two. Talk to them for a minute and you'll find out they have religiious beliefs just like ours, most are probably christian.

Like I said in the other topic, sweeping generalizations are almost always patently false. Crazymanwoot, you're in grave danger of painting yourself as a crazy bible-thumper who has nothing better to do than to disparage others. Then again, I know plenty of "fundementalist christians" that also swear like sailors, do drugs, and sometimes have suicidal thoughts; just like any other member of our society.

Might I direct your attention to John 8:2-11 in which Jesus says "he who is without sin, cast the first stone"
 
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NeilMcD said:
Can't we all get along?

I've seen plenty of goths hanging around the local mall, dressed to raise an eyebrow or two. Talk to them for a minute and you'll find out they have religiious beliefs just like ours, most are probably christian.

Like I said in the other topic, sweeping generalizations are almost always patently false. Crazymanwoot, you're in grave danger of painting yourself as a crazy bible-thumper who has nothing better to do than to disparage others. Then again, I know plenty of "fundementalist christians" that also swear like sailors, do drugs, and sometimes have suicidal thoughts; just like any other member of our society.

Might I direct your attention to John 8:2-11 in which Jesus says "he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

Oh yeah, I do social with gothic people. I was just expressing my opinion and so you can understand what I am thinking of gothic people. I respect them with their life as gothic. I have to show them the bible verses and explain about Jesus that is the point of what I am doing.

You are right with this sweeping generalizations are almost always patently false. Did I force someone to believe Christian. I always give the info and left them with decision to choose believe it or not.

I am very social person at same time I always have to show them about bible and Jesus’ way. Being crazy over bible is nothing wrong. For example, Jesus Christ is our father and his words are at Bible. Jesus knows the perfect life and it is in the bible so we should follow it. Therefore being crazy with bible is nothing wrong. The word of disparage and I do not do like that. Well, I may sometime blunt on people at wrong time and wrong place. That is my one of weakness.

Points out with your statements, "fundementalist christians" and I believe it is wrong. Anyway remember that we are in SIN world and we may do sin sometime with expected or unexpected. We cannot survive without Jesus Christ.

John 8:2-11 NIV, very good verses.
7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

What do you apply that verses with me? I was giving the bible verses about light and dark. I gave my opinion that Gothic people is not normal when they wear black clothes for everyday of their life.
 
"fundementalist christians" and ok to do drugs, sucidcal thoughts, and sins.
Q: What does it mean for a Christian to "backslide"?
from www.billygraham.org and http://www.billygraham.org/SpiritualHelp_Article_Index.asp?MajorTopicID=7&MinorTopicID=65

A: The Old Testament uses the term "backsliding" to speak of those who have been near to God but have allowed sin to take them away from Him. The prophet Jeremiah said, "Our backsliding is great; we have sinned against you" (Jeremiah 14:7). Backsliding in Scripture is always seen as a very serious matter: "'Your wickedness will punish you; your backsliding will rebuke you. Consider then and realize how evil and bitter it is for you when you forsake the Lord your God and have no awe of me,' declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty" (Jeremiah 2:19).

Backsliding can be caused by many things. However, whatever the sin might be that leads us away from God, it must be dealt with honestly and brought before Him in repentance. God loves us and wants us to be close to Him. Even when we sin against Him, He promises to forgive. "I will heal their waywardness and love them freely, for my anger has turned away from them" (Hosea 14:4). We must always fight against backsliding, but if we do backslide, we know that when we renounce our sin and return to God, there is forgiveness and reconciliation. The Bible says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).
 
OK. I think either I'm totally blind or someone's not listening to himself.

You're saying that you're not passing judgement on goths, but then you say
I have to show them the bible verses and explain about Jesus that is the point of what I am doing.

Why would you need to do that if you didn't judge their behavior beforehand?

Fundamentalism is defined as:
Worldview or movement centered on restoring religious tradition or sacred text as guiding force in society, usually in opposition to ideas or practices considered modern. Term originates with American Protestant conservatives in early twentieth century; since used for type of evangelicalism. Commonly applied to efforts of Islamist groups or regimes favoring conservative morality and strict application of Islamic law.

It basically means a narrow world view based upon a singular belief structure and nothing can intrude upon that. Your postings in this topic are evidence of that.

I'll respect that you have a neo-conservative and religious view and in some ways, I share that view as a catholic american.

However, I also believe strongly, as evidenced by the horrors of the past where the name of Jesus, the prince of peace, was the excuse given to marginalize and kill entire populations of "non-believers"; that christians need to get off their moral high-horse because we don't have a monopoly on morals or ethical behiavior.

CrazymanWoot, pleaes don't think I'm attacking you personally. I'm frustrated when I try to have theological conversation with evangelicals because it often becomes one-sided (theirs). I'm sure goths feel the same way when people talk "at" them instead of "to" them.

-Neil
 
I like the way I dress up like goth so is my daughter. I used to dye my hair into black. Black lipstick.. tongue pierced

My cousin does the same thing. I wuv her. My friends do that too.
 

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I have friends who are gothic and wear goth clothing and Sometimes it is kinda ugly in style but sometimes it looks cool. It really depends.


My good friend Erin who works with me, she is more a freaky person the way she dresses but, I still hang out with her and we are really good friends too:)
 
Malfoyish said:
Uhhh...I think that we need to focus on a person as an individual and cast aside the labels...like "black," "white," or "goth."

Not judging anyone here - hey, to each their own, you know? But I dunno about the whole gothic ensemble. I mean, I love black. I wear it almost every day. It's a rare occasion that you'll find me in pastels. I hate pretty girly shit colors. I honestly do. I do have a few things that are obviously girly, but I just don't see the point in coloring my hair jet-black, painting my fingernails midnight or uh...cutting my wrists to "get in touch with myself." I did my own form of self-injury at one point in my life, but I had different reasons for it. Piercings, too. I look at someone who has a pierced navel and cringe. I can't imagine piercing nipples, peenies, or tongues. Uh, no thank you, ma'am.

Those who show me respect are the ones I return the favor to. Goths are people too, and that's all I see 'em as. I'm just not much for the wardrobe. ;)
e
:werd: :gpost:

I could have written this, myself.

Truth be told though, I kind of live on the darker side of life and have a very cynical view of things most of the time. But, does that make me a Goth? I don't think so. To me, people are people regardless of what label we place on them. As I understand it, people who are into the Goth lifestyle, just want to express themselves and be heard as individuals. And, isn't that what we *ALL* want? In my humble opinion, we should toss out the labels, and treat each other as the people that we are. If we did, our lives would be better off for it.
 
Reba said:
I don't know what is so wonderful about wearing black. As a terp, 90% of my wardrobe is black. I'm sick of it.

:werd: I have maybe ONE peice of clothing that is black. Most of my clothing is comprised of bright colors, and that's the way I like it! :)
 
Oceanbreeze said:
:werd: I have maybe ONE peice of clothing that is black. Most of my clothing is comprised of bright colors, and that's the way I like it! :)
My closet is dark: black, charcoal gray, dark purple, navy blue, dark green, etc. No patterns, stripes, plaids, florals allowed for terp work. Nothing shiny or bright. I only have a few "non-work" clothes that are bright and colorful. I can't afford separate terp and non-terp wardrobes, so that's the way it is. At our annual terp conference, the order is "no 'funeral' clothes allowed--wear your wildest, brightest clothes". Te, he, that is the one day terps can go crazy with their clothes!

BTW, to stay on topic, when I was a teen in the 1960's, we dressed in all black, wore dark eye make-up, white lipstick, and long straight (ironed) dark hair, parted in the middle or long bangs. It was not called Goth then, but beatnik. I guess we were ahead of the times, ha, ha.
 
Most people who dress in Gothic style are not Gothic at heart. It is like a fad and they like how it looks. It does not reflect their true feelings. We cannot judge them based on how they are dressed until we have spent at least a day with them, discussing life philosophies, etc. Same goes with Grunge, which is much more popular in Northwest. Most people avoid Grunge but it is really a fad and most are good kids at heart.

Stop judging until you've been with them at least a day to see where their values are!
 
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Meg said:
Most people who dress in Gothic style are not Gothic at heart. It is like a fad and they like how it looks. It does not reflect their true feelings. We cannot judge them based on how they are dressed until we have spent at least a day with them, discussing life philosophies, etc. Same goes with Grunge, which is much more popular in Northwest. Most people avoid Grunge but it is really a fad and most are good kids at heart.

Stop judging until you've been with them at least a day to see where their values are!

i so totally AGREE with u Meg!!! :thumb:
 
Exactly, we cannot judge by looking into their hearts
 
"Goth" of 1965 (notice, no smile):
 

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Reba, is this photo of you when you were a little girl ?
If not, then who's that ? She reminded me
of my old neighbor good friend...

Pretty face even without smile :)
 
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Y said:
Reba, is this photo of you when you were a little girl ?
That was me when I was 14. I wanted to be like "Goths" back then but I was too young to use real make-up, ha, ha.
 
thunderlionman said:
i have a few gothic friends.. funny but i am not .. some say i use quite a few black shirts like gothic way . mmm.. strange !! :devil: i am curious .. what you know of about them?? explore their world mmm


I don't know, I think they only believe in God but that is all.
 
i am gothic myself too....i just wear it cuz it look goody on me it dont mean i am demon worshipper or something like that most people think i am *scoffs* why cant people just look inside ur personality and not judge on apperence i think that is dumb to do that no offense....i know a little bit abt gothic heh
 
That the way people are, I tried to dress nice and something simple so that people won't judge my appearance.
 
How do we make sense of the Lillelid murders?
By Jesse Fox Mayshark

APRIL 20, 1998:

Natasha Wallen Cornett has her thumbs hooked through holes in the sleeves of her white thermal shirt, which she wears beneath the navy blue jumpsuit that marks her as a resident of the Greene County Jail. It may be to keep her hands warm. It may be just an affectation, a small act of rebellion, the only kind left to her anymore. It may be so the sleeves don't roll back to expose the scars on her arms. I don't think to ask.

It's hard, in fact, to know what to ask her. She's flanked by Crystal Sturgill and Karen Howell, in identical uniforms, all of them pallid under the fluorescent hallway lights. Sturgill's somewhat frizzy hair and Howell's puffy eyes suggest they haven't been up long this morning, an observation Howell confirms. "They got us out of bed," she says, her small voice registering not so much resentment as resignation.

So here they are. Three convicted murderers. Three demonic killers, vampires, would-be anti-Christs, if you believe everything said about them in court and in news reports over the past 12 months.

What they mostly seem like up close is three teenage girls. Cornett and Sturgill are 19, Howell is 18, but they could all be several years younger. They're guarded at first, but they soon relax. This is their seventh or eighth interview since they were sentenced to life in prison four days ago—on Friday the 13th—and they seem glad to talk.

The crime is familiar by now. East Tennessee media covered it obsessively, and the state Associated Press named it the number one story of 1997. On April 6 of last year, Cornett, Howell, and Sturgill left their homes in Eastern Kentucky with three friends—Joe Risner and Dean Mullins (Howell and Cornett's boyfriends) and 14-year-old Jason Bryant. That evening, at an I-81 rest stop north of Greeneville, they kidnapped a family of Knox County Jehovah's Witnesses who were on their way home from a religious conference, drove them to a dead-end gravel road, shot all four of them—mother, father, grade-school daughter, toddler son—and took their van, leaving the adults dead and the little girl to die the next day in a hospital. Only the 2-year-old boy survived, his right eye destroyed. Two days later, the six were arrested in Arizona after trying to cross into Mexico.

In the flood of news stories that followed, the case took on near-mythic dimensions of good and evil. The victims—Vidar and Delfina Lillelid and their children, Peter and Tabitha—became an embodiment of innocence and hope, immigrants from different continents who had started a life together dedicated to their family and their faith. Their attackers assumed an aura of darkness that went beyond the horror of their crime. The first lurid physical descriptions of them, their "wild haircuts" and face piercings, were quickly joined by tales of occultism, witchcraft, and satanic rites. Most of the stories revolved around Cornett—how she was married wearing a black dress and red cape, how she cut herself and drank blood, how she signed her name backwards, "Ah-Satan".

The obvious questions about the case have been answered. Although the six have offered different versions of who did the actual shooting, all of them pleaded guilty in February to first-degree felony murder. Last month, Judge James E. Beckner sentenced each of them to three consecutive terms of life without parole, plus 25 years.

Before they left home, they stopped at McDonald's for lunch. Karen paid, with some of the $500 she had taken from her father's house. They were talking about going somewhere far away—New Orleans, maybe, because Natasha had been there before—and they knew Joe's Chevy Citation was too small and too old to get all six of them there. They already had the guns—one from Karen's father's cabinet and one from a friend. "Joe said we could stick somebody up for their car in a mall parking lot," Natasha said in court. "I said, what do you mean a mall? Like a K-Mart? He said, no, a big mall like they have in Lexington." They decided to look for a mall in Tennessee, since it was on the way to New Orleans.

Greeneville, March 10-13

Bryant, the youngest and least articulate of the group, says he never knew what was going on during the trip and was stunned by the carjacking and the killings. He names Risner and Mullins as the shooters but can't offer many details of the crime (he says he went into shock). Cornett, Howell, and Risner all say the opposite—that Bryant was the sole shooter, emptying two handguns into the family while the others watched in varying degrees of horror. They have divergences, though; Natasha and Karen say Natasha tried to stop Jason, or at least tried to save the children; Risner says nothing about that; Risner admits he ran over the bodies as the six were fleeing in the Lillelids' van, but insists it was an accident; Karen and Natasha (and, in the jail interview, Crystal) say it was intentional and Risner was laughing as he did it.

Scene Two

Vidar Lillelid approached the group outside the bathroom at the rest stop, carrying his young son in his arms. The blond, smiling father asked the teens if they believed in God. Natasha said no; He had never answered her prayers when she was little. While they spoke, Delfina and Tabitha Lillelid came up. Tabitha reached out her hand and offered Karen and Natasha a Hershey's kiss.

Shoney's—There's an air of defiance about Tiffany Caudill as she walks into the restaurant, just off the highway between Pikeville and Betsy Layne. She's wearing jeans, workboots, and a black White Zombie T-shirt with "Say You Love Satan" emblazoned on the back.

Greeneville, March 10-13:

"They certainly didn't indicate to me at any level that they were remorseful about what they had done," he says, sitting in his fifth-floor office in the NationsBank building adjacent to the Greene County Courthouse. "They were remorseful that they were convicted of first-degree murder and that they are going to die in the penitentiary. But that's about the only level of remorse I have seen from these people."

Bell didn't set out looking for witches. But he says the evidence quickly accumulated to such an extent that it was impossible to ignore: from the upside-down cross spray-painted in Natasha's bedroom to the one she carved into Jason Bryant's left arm two nights before the killings, from her books on witchcraft to the testimony of friends about Natasha and Karen's blood rituals, everywhere Bell's investigators looked, they found occultism.

He doesn't pretend to understand the teens' exact beliefs, which he characterizes as a mish-mash of ideas cribbed from a wealth of sources. But he's sure they were the reason for the killings. And in his 16 years as D.A., he's never had a case convince him so thoroughly that there is evil—"spiritual evil"—in the world.

At the foot of the bank are openings to two parallel tunnels, wide cement box culverts as long as a football field and eight or nine feet high. When it's not raining, they stay fairly dry. They're covered, end to end, floor to ceiling, with spray-painted slogans and symbols.

When Natasha Cornett was 13 or 14 years old, she came down here with a can of black spray paint and in letters two feet high scrawled the name of a popular Pat Benatar song: "Hell is for Children." It's signed, "by Natasha Ah-Satan."

Scene Three

In the Lillelids' van, Joe Risner sat in the front seat holding the 9 mm gun. Jason Bryant, Natasha Cornett, and Karen Howell were in the middle, next to Peter Lillelid in his car seat. Jason was holding the .25 caliber. Delfina and Tabitha were in back. Tabitha was crying. Delfina started singing to her. Natasha says Jason told Delfina, "You'd better shut her up!" The Lillelids tried to assure their kidnappers they could let them go without fear of repercussions. "[Delfina] said she wouldn't be able to identify any of our faces because all teenagers dress alike these days," Karen says.

"Tara" dresses a lot like Natasha Cornett and her friends. Today, she's wearing a black Nine Inch Nails T-shirt, with an upright pentagram dangling from her thin necklace. She doesn't want her real name used. Although she is "out of the broom closet" to her friends and co-workers, the 20-year-old college student is wary of letting too many people in Pike County know she's a Wiccan, a witch.


Tara's been a Wiccan for three years. She knows most people around here won't see much difference between her religion and satanism. But she says she adheres to pre-Christian pagan beliefs that don't even acknowledge Satan, much less worship him.

Tara estimates there are 200 or so Wiccans in the immediate vicinity, most of them solitary practitioners. Natasha Cornett, she says, wasn't one of them. She was something different, darker.

The god Natasha says she believes in is a yin-yang deity similar to the Wiccan goddess. But Tara thinks Cornett lost sight of the good in pursuit of the evil.

"In the immortal words of Kurt Cobain," Tara says, giving an ironic half-smile at the name of the dead singer, "the darkness catches you. You can run from it, but it catches you. If you completely embrace the dark side without the light, then the dark will claim you."

After Steve Cornett left her, Natasha and a friend took a road trip to try to find him in Lexington. Failing that, they ended up in New Orleans, where they lived for a month, hanging out with "gutter punks" and sleeping in abandoned houses. They did drugs, including heroin. They went to a tarot reader; the cards said Natasha was going to "do something big" with her life.

The word "Gothic" is mostly a fashion statement these days. It means dark clothing, black lipstick, chains on jeans, and the doom-ridden music of bands like Marilyn Manson and Tool. Tara offers a definition: "The whole idea behind Goth, in my opinion, is embracing your darker side and recognizing it."

She's not far off from the more subtle analysis offered in a recent book, Nightmare on Main Street, by University of Virginia literature professor Mark Edmundson. Tracing Gothic thought to its roots in 18th and 19th century literature (Edgar Allan Poe was kind of a high priest of Gothic), Edmundson suggests its core ideas—that we are haunted by pasts we can't escape, that there is no hope for redemption—have come to define our culture. He sees the effects of Gothic thought in everything from Freudian psychobabble to slasher films. (Vampires, who are both haunter and haunted, are very Gothic.) Edmundson isn't an alarmist, exactly; he notes violent crime, for example, is actually down, even as obsession with it is up. But he wonders about the cultural impact of so much determined, or pre-determined, darkness: "In a culture of Gothic...there is no love to mitigate the drive to domination, not even a conception of love that can adequately counter the Gothic myth that all is haunted and that death inevitably wins out."

Scene Four

After the shootings, Natasha says, Jason jumped into passenger seat of the Lillelids' van. He and Risner were laughing. Karen says Jason fiddled with the stereo. "He said, 'I've gotta hear some Marilyn Manson.'" The stereo wouldn't work.

Jason's the one who walked up to Tabitha Lillelid while the 6-year-old was screaming over her mother's fallen body, put a gun to the girl's blond head, and fired. Crystal Sturgill calls him "a monster."

I start to ask what it's like to wake up every morning and realize he's in jail, but Bryant anticipates the question and misunderstands it. "Every morning when I wake up, I grab my right eye," he says, clamping his hand to his face to demonstrate. He said the same thing in court, to illustrate his trauma at seeing Vidar Lillelid shot in the head. The motion looked oddly mechanical on the stand; it seems even moreso close-up.
 
Greene County sheriff's deputies found the victims lying in darkness except for the beam of headlights from their attackers' abandoned car. Run over by their own van, muddy tire tracks crossed the couple's legs. Vidar had six bullet wounds. His wife had eight. The children -- Tabitha shot through the head; Peter, shot in the back and through one eye -- were lying across their parents' torsos.

Two days later, the young Kentuckians, then 14 to 20 years old, were arrested at the U.S.-Mexico border. They were found in the Lillelids' van, along with Peter's child safety seat, Tabitha's doll and Delfina's purse. Also found were "The Book of Black Magic" and the "Complete Book of Magic and Witchcraft."

Meanwhile, 2-year-old Peter Lillelid fought for his life in a Knoxville hospital as hundreds -- some who'd known the victims, others who knew only of their fate -- visited a funeral home across town to pay their respects. Overwhelmed relatives from Sweden, Norway, Miami and New York stood for hours at one end of a large hall while at the other end, Tabitha's blond hair shone from the middle of three open caskets where their loved ones lay. The job of preparing the Lillelids for burial had been an emotionally difficult one for the staff of Weaver Funeral Home. "When we put that little girl in the casket, we cried like babies," attendant Tommy Petty said. . . Days later, Peter calls his Aunt Randi "momma" as he boards a plane bound for Stockholm with her and her family. Peter, who had been fitted with an artificial eye, has been promised state-of-the-art therapy in Sweden to help him regain his ability to walk, which was lost when a bullet passed by his spine on its way through his back.
 
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