Stupid question

Theseus and NFGTragedy, de facto, I have a few questions to ask in reference to the relationship and friendship of deaf and hearing to attain more counsel. Or delving into your posts and discuss but in truth, I backed off because I'm afraid that someone else would think I'm using you folks for whatever they might have considered of me. (actually, I won't.)

In any case, thanks for everything.

Everyone, see you all on Monday. Have a nice weekend. :)
 
It is not a dead site... but rather the link included the ( )'s for some reason. The real link is here --> ASLPro.com Home Sorry for the confusion.
Unbelievably but I got hooked in by the ASL website you gave me the link. I was supposed to go to bed an hour ago. I cannot believe how astonishingly useful and addicting ASLPro can be.

While on the subject, I was perplexed about words-to-ASL translation in "Conversational Phrases".

Example A: No Problem or Means Nothing To Me. [under ASL Idioms]

It requires only one ASL gesture, "nothing" like to summarize those words. I found a word sign, "nothing" under the dictionary.

Example B: I have run out of medicine. [under Health]

Perceptibly, it requires only two ASL gestures to summarize those words. But a woman signed "medicine" first instead of the last as to the sentence above intended. No word signs; "I", "have", "run", "out" and "of" in it at all. I was unable to find a similar sign (word) for second gesture.

I wonder if I missed something like rule? Or in ASL, grammar is comparatively different from the standard english?

For real, I fell in love with ASL. It's so beautiful.
 
Yes, ASL has a different syntax, and even a different conceptual basis (I think) from most spoken languages. There's also PSE - pidgin signed english - that uses English word order and ASL signs, but ASL itself is a different language.
 
ASL has nothing to do with english at all. It is it's own language and has it's own rules. Like for instance: I am going to the store because my shoe broke yesterday. In ASL it would be Yesterday, my shoe it broke, now I go-to store. See the difference? Now there is a sign that with your left hand you make a fist in front of you with thumb facing to the right(if you're right handed) take you right hand near your mouth fist with index finger straight up(like you're telling someone to hush) then you turn it into a fist with thumb and fingers face down on top of left fist. This means true biz. True biz cannot be translated as an english word. It depends on context. For example: That heart test, it true biz important, why? my family generation heart disease." In english that would mean. Heart disease runs in my family so this heart test is very important.
 
ASL has nothing to do with english at all. It is it's own language and has it's own rules. Like for instance: I am going to the store because my shoe broke yesterday. In ASL it would be Yesterday, my shoe it broke, now I go-to store. See the difference? Now there is a sign that with your left hand you make a fist in front of you with thumb facing to the right(if you're right handed) take you right hand near your mouth fist with index finger straight up(like you're telling someone to hush) then you turn it into a fist with thumb and fingers face down on top of left fist. This means true biz. True biz cannot be translated as an english word. It depends on context. For example: That heart test, it true biz important, why? my family generation heart disease." In english that would mean. Heart disease runs in my family so this heart test is very important.


The examples you gave looked more basically like pigeon-english, and poor grammar English to someone seeing this for the first time, we have the same issues with BSL, more a re-arrangement of basic grammar to suit the sign used. To many it is a signed version of the basic host country language, that misses out conjoining words to present an 'overall' image of what is being said. Because words are 're-arranged' in a different order, doesn't neccessarily indicate a different grammar or language. A visual interpretation of a host country's language, but not really a stand-alone one, or enough variety of grammar to see it this way. So long as you are understood does it matter ?
 
The examples you gave looked more basically like pigeon-english, and poor grammar English to someone seeing this for the first time, we have the same issues with BSL, more a re-arrangement of basic grammar to suit the sign used. To many it is a signed version of the basic host country language, that misses out conjoining words to present an 'overall' image of what is being said. Because words are 're-arranged' in a different order, doesn't neccessarily indicate a different grammar or language. A visual interpretation of a host country's language, but not really a stand-alone one, or enough variety of grammar to see it this way. So long as you are understood does it matter ?

I don't agree that is pidgeon at all. It is not in english word order by any means. However, since I am still learning, please inform me how you would write the above sentences. Thank you very much. Robbie :)
 
I don't agree that is pidgeon at all. It is not in english word order by any means. However, since I am still learning, please inform me how you would write the above sentences. Thank you very much. Robbie :)

It would be : Yesterday, shoe broke, now store go.
 
Re: the original question: I cna relate second hand what my son has always told me. Having been profoundly deaf from birth, being deaf is as natural to him as being hearing is to me. How do you describe something when it requires you to compare and contrast to something you have never experienced. It can't be done.

Also, sensorineural loss is hearing loss attributed to nerve damage.
 
Yes, ASL has a different syntax, and even a different conceptual basis (I think) from most spoken languages. There's also PSE - pidgin signed english - that uses English word order and ASL signs, but ASL itself is a different language.

Absolutely. ASL is a visual language, and what is perceived visually is not always immediately translatable to the auditory/aural languages. The two involve different cognitive processing. PSE is not the native language of the Deaf. It is a system of manually coded English developed by the hearing. Visually, it is often very confusing to those whose native language is ASL. It makes a spoken language visual, but it is not a conceptually visual language.
 
Unbelievably but I got hooked in by the ASL website you gave me the link. I was supposed to go to bed an hour ago. I cannot believe how astonishingly useful and addicting ASLPro can be.

While on the subject, I was perplexed about words-to-ASL translation in "Conversational Phrases".

Example A: No Problem or Means Nothing To Me. [under ASL Idioms]

It requires only one ASL gesture, "nothing" like to summarize those words. I found a word sign, "nothing" under the dictionary.

Example B: I have run out of medicine. [under Health]

Perceptibly, it requires only two ASL gestures to summarize those words. But a woman signed "medicine" first instead of the last as to the sentence above intended. No word signs; "I", "have", "run", "out" and "of" in it at all. I was unable to find a similar sign (word) for second gesture.

I wonder if I missed something like rule? Or in ASL, grammar is comparatively different from the standard english?

For real, I fell in love with ASL. It's so beautiful.

ASL is a very conceptual language. Similar meaning (conceptual) signs have the same sign, and the real objective consists of "painting" a picture with your hands. English grammar articles (the, an, a) are unnecessary as well as prepositions (in, on, under, above, behind, with, between, etc). The signing itself will visualize an action taking place or the position of something, so prepositions aren't needed. Different tenses of verb (past and present) aren't always used.

It is a language separate from English, as it has its own morphology (rules for the creation of words), phonetics (rules for handshapes), and grammar that are very unlike those found in spoken languages. It is based on the old French Sign Language because of a French Deaf man named Laurent Clerc who was one of the first deaf teachers in the U.S. in the 19th century. About ASL

The two other most used forms of sign language in the United States are Pidgin Sign English (PSE) which is a hybrid form of ASL using English grammar rules, and Signing Exact English (SEE II) which is only a 'coded language' attaching a sign or two to each word in the English language.

There are also many other sign languages in the U.S. and around the world - Sign Languages Around The World
 
Google Search for ASL Phonetics lists several college course descriptions offering classes on the study of ASL phonetics. Linguists think of phonetics abstractly when referring to ASL, because signs can be broken into smaller units, just like words can be broken down into smaller sounds. It's used abstractly, not strictly per the definition in the dictionary, perhaps for lack of a better word. I'm just quoting what linguistics have said (I read that somewhere else about two years ago also)--and think they're just exerting their hearing bias on how sign language has phonetic properties, but whether it's true or not, it can be used to claim that ASL is an entirely different language of its own.

.
.

Phonology and Signed languages

Many people are surprised to hear linguists talk about the "phonetics" and "phonology" of signed languages. Since these languages use a visual and not a spoken modality, there is the intuitively obvious fact that sign languages don't use sound to convey information and so we might be led to conclude that phonology and phonetics are irrelevant to signed languages. But, if we think about phonology and phonetics a bit more abstractly, this is not so obviously true anymore. We might think of phonology instead as an abstract component within our overall grammar that is responsible for organizing the system of production, i.e. of articulation, regardless of whether articulation is carried out with the hands or through speaking. In this sense, we can show clearly that signed languages have a phonology that is in many respects the same as spoken languages. A case in point is a consideration of how we can break signs down into smaller units, very much like we can break phonemes down into smaller articulatory features or properties.

Let's look at this idea a bit more in detail. As I mentioned in class, the linguist William Stokoe, who was a professor at Gallaudet University in Washington, was really the first person to systematically argue that signed languages had all the properties of spoken languages. One very important area of his research involved breaking signs down into smaller components, thus showing that signs were built up out of smaller parts, just like phonemes are made up out of smaller phonetic features, and just like morphemes in spoken languages are made up out of phonemes. This, of course, bears on the issue of human language grammars working by building elements by combining smaller discrete elements--a point which Pinker discusses at length throughout The Language Instinct.

In particular, Stokoe working to develop a phonetic transcription system for signs, originally identified THREE parameters or formational elements that signs are comprised of. If it helps, you can compare these to features like the voicing, place, and manner features that we have shown sounds to be comprised of. Here's a list of Stokoe's original three parameters:
# 1) the shape of the hand used in the sign (is it a fist, are the fingers extended, and so forth). This is simply called handshape today.
# 2) the place of articulation of the sign in space or on the signer's (speaker's) body (for example, on the chest, held in front of the chest, on the temple, etc...)
# 3) the particular movement that is associated with the sign (e.g. repeated circular motion, slow elliptical movement, back and forth movement, etc...)
Other researchers have identified other features that can be used to break down signs into additional components. These include taking into consideration the region of the hand that makes contact with the signer's body (if there is contact), the orientation of the hand with respect to the signer's body, and the orientation of the two hands with respect to one another. The big point? These parameters or formational elements allow us to see that signs, like phonemes in spoken language, aren't just unanalyzable wholes. Rather, they are built up out of features. In this sense, we begin to see that sign functions very much like spoken language in its phonology.

In fact, we can see that these parameters can function just like phonetic features in marking meaning between otherwise identical signs. That is, we can find minimal pairs of signs. I gave you three examples in class, taken from Language Files:

* 1) the difference between "apple" and "candy" is signaled by using two different handshapes at the same location and with the same movement
* 2) the difference between "apple" and "onion" is signaled by making the same handshape and movement, but by locating the sign at the mouth for "apple" and at the eye for "onion"
* 3) the difference between "think" and "wonder" is signaled by using the same place of articulation (the temple) and the same handshape (a pointed index finger), but the movement is different. Wonder involves a circle movement, while "think" does not involve moving the hand in a circle.

*end of excerpt*

Extracted from what a linguistics professor said
 
Sheesh

Theseus
I'm just quoting what linguistics have said (I read that somewhere else about two years ago also)--and think they're just exerting their hearing bias on how sign language has phonetic properties, but whether it's true or not, it can be used to claim that ASL is an entirely different language of its own.

Theseus,

The spoken languages should be claiming that it is a visual languages,
based on the different mouth shapes the phonemes make. :cool:
 
Theseus,

The spoken languages should be claiming that it is a visual languages,
based on the different mouth shapes the phonemes make. :cool:

Linguists, run for cover. Hurry and hide your head in the sand. loml is coming!! ;)
 
I don't agree that is pidgeon at all. It is not in english word order by any means. However, since I am still learning, please inform me how you would write the above sentences. Thank you very much. Robbie :)

Like most people I would write it exactly, as hearing people do ! Who writes in ASL ?
 
Like most people I would write it exactly, as hearing people do ! Who writes in ASL ?

I don't "write" in ASL. But since I can't do a sign video, I have no choice but to put it in writing and then the person reading it would sign what I wrote. I do wish it could be written because alot of books written in our english grammar and syntax some deaf don't understand. Like for people that don't know any sign and have to write a message to a deaf person that has limited english skills but enough to read, could write in asl word order and it would be more clear. I do it when I IM my friend all the time and it works. But she is really good at the english language. But sometimes I have to clarify, so I switch the wording to asl format and it is more easily understood. Most of the time though I type in english format. Only for clarification purposes. Robbielyn
 
Simply writing English words in ASL word order does not make the syntax more understnadable. Signs are visual conceptual representations, not representations of English words. The word is simply an approximate equivilent to the pragmatics of the signs. That is why ASL is not, has never been, and willnever be a written language!
 
ASL has nothing to do with english at all. It is it's own language and has it's own rules. Like for instance: I am going to the store because my shoe broke yesterday. In ASL it would be Yesterday, my shoe it broke, now I go-to store. See the difference? Now there is a sign that with your left hand you make a fist in front of you with thumb facing to the right(if you're right handed) take you right hand near your mouth fist with index finger straight up(like you're telling someone to hush) then you turn it into a fist with thumb and fingers face down on top of left fist. This means true biz. True biz cannot be translated as an english word. It depends on context. For example: That heart test, it true biz important, why? my family generation heart disease." In english that would mean. Heart disease runs in my family so this heart test is very important.


Obviously, you don't sign in correct ASL syntax, either.
 
Simply writing English words in ASL word order does not make the syntax more understnadable. Signs are visual conceptual representations, not representations of English words. The word is simply an approximate equivilent to the pragmatics of the signs. That is why ASL is not, has never been, and willnever be a written language!


I suppose this raises the point of its value in real access terms to deaf people ? Since the deaf need/want access to the wider world it suggests ASL (Or the Brit BSL), is the wrong type of sign deaf should be using. Signed English (In the UK), seems a more practicable and realistic sign deaf should acquire as it mirrors better the written/spoken word thus enabling deaf people to access books and learning materials as well as understanding better how the world works.

There IS no written ASL/BSL and if there WAS, there is NO references material deaf can use. Learning English also offers deaf people a gateway to higher learning and education too, which BSL/ASL (As 'concept' sign), is not going to do because it lacks all the details. A general idea won't do. Obviously deaf need to sign, but do they need ASL ? or BSL ? except as communual communication. Being sign Bi-lingual is easier for deaf via sign, indeed a norm, but the priority on a poor accessible tool in BSL here, hinders deaf advance. NO reference materials exist in education via BSL here so, why use it ?
 
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