Start with spoken language or ASL?

[shel90]

I never said ASL was broken English, I just view it that way.

I have seen children with strong foundation in ASL and end up being horrible in English. It is not a matter of which language is better for the children, its the matter of the children' ability to grasp materials. It also falls on the parents as well.

I grew up using SEE as my method of communication and with that, it helped me understand English better. I was lucky to have parents who were very strong in my language development which led me being able to read and write earlier than most of children my age.

If it is so true, then how did deaf children from deaf families scored on par with their hearing counterparts for literacy skills according to research. U have to find out the educational backgrounds of those with horrible English..were they language delayed and learned ASL lanter? Were they in educational settings where teachers were unable to teach them properly? There r many factors..can't blame ASL for it.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

If it is so true, then how did deaf children from deaf families scored on par with their hearing counterparts for literacy skills according to research. U have to find out the educational backgrounds of those with horrible English..were they language delayed and learned ASL lanter? Were they in educational settings where teachers were unable to teach them properly? There r many factors..can't blame ASL for it.

Here's a quote.

imdeafsowhat: "It depends on each individuals."

but what deaf n smart is trying to say is, (I think)

His prespective on it only tells himself that it is not great to have ASL as the first language, but benefital to have Englsih as first and ASL as second. It's that simple, no research.

 

[doofenslim]

If it is so true, then how did deaf children from deaf families scored on par with their hearing counterparts for literacy skills according to research. U have to find out the educational backgrounds of those with horrible English..were they language delayed and learned ASL lanter? Were they in educational settings where teachers were unable to teach them properly? There r many factors..can't blame ASL for it.

What have I said that is "so true?" I think you just totally missed my point.

I have seen deaf children from deaf families have horrible literacy skills.

 

[Byrdie714]

Total communication, Bi-bi approach with ASL and English.

The question is... should make ASL primary language or English as primary language.

I prefer ASL as primary language and English as secondary language because you can put deaf children through English Second language classes (Aka ESL class). Those forgein students from another countries are more successful when they enter ESL classes mainstream with English spoken schools. Why not deaf?

My wife is one of those ESL deaf students and she turn out fine with ASL as her primary language.

Before I get confused are you referring to ESL as English Sign Language or English as a Second Language for foreigners?

I know ASL, PSE, SEE, BSL, JSL, and some others. Why?

My back is furry. What else?

Time to wax it!

I did not say that...

If add Spanish, French, German... that will be considered 3rd language.

ASL, English, Spanish... that what I have learned so far. Spanish very easy to learn because of its grammar structure similar to ASL.

Any given fact, English is one of the hardest language to learn. Its melting pot of many languages into English. So many structures changed into English compared to latin to other languages.

And French.

 

[Cheri]

I know some people are pro-ASL and most people have no problem with deaf people speaking. However, I am curious as to what people would do first when they have a baby born deaf. Would they try to teach him/her spoken language first, and if it is too difficult, then try to teach ASL to gain vocabulary? Or would you rather spare the child the difficulty of learning spoken language and go straight to teaching ASL? Assuming parents are both hearing, and willing to do whatever it takes to communicate with their child.

I would go for signing as soon the baby is 6 months, they could use a sign for bottle when they're hungry, or a sign for milk--A baby can immediately communicate his/her wants/needs without needed to cry. Spoken communication can come later, Learning sign language at the begin does not delay speech, so there's no needed to worry.

 

[shel90]

What have I said that is "so true?" I think you just totally missed my point.

I have seen deaf children from deaf families have horrible literacy skills.

That's sad...it is obvious they most likely didn't get a good education getting taught properly of using their first language to azquire English as a 2nd language.

Maybe that's in your area cuz I see the opposite here.

It is very important that the kids read on a continual basis and write daily. Maybe in the old days, many Deaf ed programs didn't ephasize the Reading First approach.

ASL has nothing to do with it. No language should be blamed for the weaknessness in the other languages. Does someone have bad English because of the French language? No...it is all about acquiring the languages and becoming bilingual or trilingual and etc...the same applies for deaf children.

 

[rockdrummer]

I think that is going to depend on the amount of hearing loss and weither the deaf child is born to deaf native signing parents or to non signing hearing parents. One thing for sure is the parents need to make a decision early on.

 

[Deaf Mortgage]

Before I get confused are you referring to ESL as English Sign Language or English as a Second Language for foreigners?

English as Second language.


Time to wax it!



And French.

English as Second Language.

 

[Liza]

What have I said that is "so true?" I think you just totally missed my point.

I have seen deaf children from deaf families have horrible literacy skills.

I have seen hearing people having horrible literacy skills. *shrug*

 

[shel90]

I think that is going to depend on the amount of hearing loss and weither the deaf child is born to deaf native signing parents or to non signing hearing parents. One thing for sure is the parents need to make a decision early on.

What's wrong with taking the babies to a program where teachers and staff use ASL and the parents are fully involved? Or home visits? That is what my program offers and so far it has been successful regardless of the dB loss the children has.

 

[doofenslim]

That's sad...it is obvious they most likely didn't get a good education getting taught properly of using their first language to azquire English as a 2nd language.

Maybe that's in your area cuz I see the opposite here.

It is very important that the kids read on a continual basis and write daily. Maybe in the old days, many Deaf ed programs didn't ephasize the Reading First approach.

ASL has nothing to do with it. No language should be blamed for the weaknessness in the other languages. Does someone have bad English because of the French language? No...it is all about acquiring the languages and becoming bilingual or trilingual and etc...the same applies for deaf children.

My area has a pretty high level of deaf education outside of institutions. I went to a high school that was ranked among the top in the country.

Kids has to constantly be exposed to some kind of language to fully understand it. Let it be English, ASL, Spanish, French, what have you.

I never said ASL would lead to weak English. Don't be putting words in my month. It is from my perspective that SEE users have a stronger grasp on the English language because SEE is a communication method for English. ASL users could have strong grasp of English but its not always the case.

I have seen hearing people having horrible literacy skills. *shrug*

That is true, deaf or not, some people have horrible literacy skills. Its all about how they grew up, their educational background.

 

[rockdrummer]

What's wrong with taking the babies to a program where teachers and staff use ASL and the parents are fully involved? Or home visits? That is what my program offers and so far it has been successful regardless of the dB loss the children has.

There is nothing wrong with that and if those programs are widely available as a choice to parents I'm sure some parents will opt to go that route. I hear a lot of positive things about them here and in my personal research.

 

[Hermes]

I do not have a direct answer for that but I believe it is important to give infant the language he best can learn as soon as possible. What is the best language he can learn at that age gap will depend his situation. If parents are deaf too the baby has a great chance of having ASL as his native language, but what if parents are not deaf and infant has no access to an environment he can learn ASL naturally? I dont see a point choosing a language as his primal if the environment he can learn it at his best could/would not be provided.

I think this is important because no matter what is his native language will be , he will use it as a reference to learn his second language. If his primary language is weak, he will struggle learning the second language too. The thing is , you can learn a language in its natural environment without using another language as a reference, but you can not study it by yourself if you do not have a strong reference point.

I, for example , can live with deaf people who are fluent in ASL and learn it from them at a degree without using English, but if I want to study ASL myself I need to use English as my reference. If I didnt have any access to people who can provide me this natural ASL signed environment , I couldnt really learn it without using another language as a reference first.

So what is the best order? I am not qualified for answering this question but I can see choosing a language and then not being able to create the correct environment for learning that language has no points.

-

 

[shel90]

I do not have a direct answer for that but I believe it is important to give infant the language he best can learn as soon as possible. What is the best language he can learn at that age gap will depend his situation. If parents are deaf too the baby has a great chance of having ASL as his native language, but what if parents are not deaf and infant has no access to an environment he can learn ASL naturally? I dont see a point choosing a language as his primal if the environment he can learn it at his best could/would not be provided.

I think this is important because no matter what is his native language will be , he will use it as a reference to learn his second language. If his primary language is weak, he will struggle learning the second language too. The thing is , you can learn a language in its natural environment without using another language as a reference, but you can not study it by yourself if you do not have a strong reference point.

I, for example , can live with deaf people who are fluent in ASL and learn it from them at a degree without using English, but if I want to study ASL myself I need to use English as my reference. If I didnt have any access to people who can provide me this natural ASL signed environment , I couldnt really learn it without using another language as a reference first.

So what is the best order? I am not qualified for answering this question but I can see choosing a language and then not being able to create the correct environment for learning that language has no points.

-

Spoken languages are not fully accessible to deaf children like it is to hearing kids because we cant hear it like hearing kids do. Even deaf children with CIs require years of intensive speech therapy to get access to spoken language so use their strongest sense..the eyes and visual language is processed thru the eyes into the brain while spoken language is processed auditorially thru the ears. If our ears dont work, it restricts access to spoken language therefore putting many deaf children at risks for language delays. Some are able to overcome the restrictions but rarely on par with their hearing counterparts.

 

[Daredevel7]

Spoken languages are not fully accessible to deaf children like it is to hearing kids because we cant hear it like hearing kids do. Even deaf children with CIs require years of intensive speech therapy to get access to spoken language so use their strongest sense..the eyes and visual language is processed thru the eyes into the brain while spoken language is processed auditorially thru the ears. If our ears dont work, it restricts access to spoken language therefore putting many deaf children at risks for language delays. Some are able to overcome the restrictions but rarely on par with their hearing counterparts.

I find this interesting. Aren't you assuming that most deaf children cannot overcome the restriction of learning spoken english without the aid of SEE/ASL? That's why I gave the option of attempting to test out their capabilities of learning lipreading/spoken language before learning sign language. It seems limiting or at least causes spoken language delays to me if people automatically assume their child cannot learn to speak without using sign language. I was born profoundly deaf and learned to speak without the aid of ASL/SEE (I learned to lipread), and was mainstreamed by kindergarten.

 

[shel90]

I find this interesting. Aren't you assuming that most deaf children cannot overcome the restriction of learning spoken english without the aid of SEE/ASL? That's why I gave the option of attempting to test out their capabilities of learning lipreading/spoken language before learning sign language. It seems limiting or at least causes spoken language delays to me if people automatically assume their child cannot learn to speak without using sign language. I was born profoundly deaf and learned to speak without the aid of ASL/SEE (I learned to lipread), and was mainstreamed by kindergarten.

I was mainstreamed too orally too and I didnt have full access to everything like my hearing peers did. If u find that ok, your perogative but to me that is not ok.

Nope, ASL does not interfere with the development of spoken language nor the development of literacy skills.

I have seen so many children with severe language delays because they didnt have full access to language during their early years and were referred to ASL as a last resort and because of the language delays, their ASL is weak along with their literacy skills.

I used to believe the exact same thing as u did 15 years ago. Until I saw it myself first-hand as a teacher, my views changed.

Can you hear and understand everything being spoken around you all the time like hearing people do?

 

[Daredevel7]

I totally understand why deaf people learn ASL because one of the reasons is that they get more out of social situations. There is a much less of a chance of those "let downs" such as missing out what people say, etc. I have no problem with that. I do miss out a LOT of things, however here is the problem. If I were to learn ASL and take full advantage of it, that would mean I would have to completely immerse myself into the Deaf culture right? So does this mean I would have to go to a school for the deaf? So I'm forced to choose between a school for the deaf that has only general studies or a school that has specialized majors to do exactly what I want to do in life. Then what about after graduating school? Obviously you can't keep yourself immersed in Deaf culture for life unless you have a job surrounded by deaf people. You can have deaf friends, etc but chances are, your job will not have deaf coworkers. I have accepted that I will miss out some things, but I feel its worth it going to a school that I want and my hearing friends are very understanding and makes sure I don't miss out things.

 

[shel90]

I totally understand why deaf people learn ASL because one of the reasons is that they get more out of social situations. There is a much less of a chance of those "let downs" such as missing out what people say, etc. I have no problem with that. I do miss out a LOT of things, however here is the problem. If I were to learn ASL and take full advantage of it, that would mean I would have to completely immerse myself into the Deaf culture right? So does this mean I would have to go to a school for the deaf? So I'm forced to choose between a school for the deaf that has only general studies or a school that has specialized majors to do exactly what I want to do in life. Then what about after graduating school? Obviously you can't keep yourself immersed in Deaf culture for life unless you have a job surrounded by deaf people. You can have deaf friends, etc but chances are, your job will not have deaf coworkers. I have accepted that I will miss out some things, but I feel its worth it going to a school that I want and my hearing friends are very understanding and makes sure I don't miss out things.

Getting instruction using ASL doesnt mean one has to go to a Deaf school. There are BiBi programs starting up in the public schools.

Deaf schools have improved and are adopting the public school curriculm and the students are getting taught the same subjects as their hearing counterparts.

It is completely impossible for deaf children to be completely isolated from the hearing world.

 

[Hermes]

I was mainstreamed too orally too and I didnt have full access to everything like my hearing peers did. If u find that ok, your perogative but to me that is not ok.

Nope, ASL does not interfere with the development of spoken language nor the development of literacy skills.

I have seen so many children with severe language delays because they didnt have full access to language during their early years and were referred to ASL as a last resort and because of the language delays, their ASL is weak along with their literacy skills.

But this is actually not about ASL or English but how early they are exposed to one language or another. Leave them alone until six and then try teaching them either one of the languages and they will struggle big time. So if being mainstreamed is being ignored for years and then being sent to a regular school, its obvious why that kid will have language problems.

Timing and efficiency of the method has a great effect on this. No matter which language you choose , kids who start learning early will have better language skills than late learners. Efficiency is important too , just because you can hear and speak doesnt mean you can create the right environment for a deaf infant if you want to give him English as his first language. Nor somebody can claim kid will be a native ASL signer if the infant wont have healthy access to other ASL signing people.

While things change in practice from one situation to another, let me ask you all a theoric question. If the infant is profoundly deaf but has access to best of all teachers both experienced in teaching ASL and teaching deaf kids English, and these teachers are available to him 24/7, so there is no lack of neither quality nor time/attention limitations of the education , what would be the easiest language to learn for this infant?

-

 

[Daredevel7]

Getting instruction using ASL doesnt mean one has to go to a Deaf school. There are BiBi programs starting up in the public schools.

Deaf schools have improved and are adopting the public school curriculm and the students are getting taught the same subjects as their hearing counterparts.

It is completely impossible for deaf children to be completely isolated from the hearing world.

I said that in order to take full advantage of using ASL, which means BOTH getting instruction and having a social circle that uses ASL, best chance is in a Deaf school. In a public school, unless you're friends with only deaf people, you will miss out things if you talk to hearing people.

That's great that Deaf schools have improved, and I applaud that. However, the reality is, the best instructors in college are not going to teach in a Deaf school. If I wanted the best education hands down I'd have to go to a hearing school, sad to say. Not to say that Deaf schools don't have a good education, but if I wanted to go to a top ranked school.... True, I can get an interpreter, but what's the point if I know spoken English?

Anyhoo, back to the topic. Are you saying that if you had a child, you would not hesitate to teach it ASL first? I doubt learning ASL first does not hinder learning spoken English AT ALL. I mean if I learned Spanish first, I'd definitely be delayed in learning English, especially if everyone spoke Spanish to me.