Should ASL be reserve to culturally Deaf people only?

[BecLak]

I think because it's like a broken record with the constant repeating over and over. I don't know. I was not involved in that. I also know that it wasn't the bulk of us "jumping down his throat" for it.

Exactly that. KB,

Grendel, FJ, Rick - I wasn't "jumping down his throat". You are too quick to the gun.

If HHIssues had indicated that he had taken it the wrong way I would have made amends but I don't think he did. You are always jumping in and putting words in other people's mouths before they can make a response for themselves. I have mentioned this before.....let others speak for themselves. If they have the first say in a matter, by all means you can support them.

HHIssues, if I was out of line, I'm sorry.

 

[deafdyke]

Oh and faire joure, you are taking our comments as a personal attack on your parenting style. We are not attacking you. We simply think that a lot of your worries that Miss Kat may not develop fluent oral abilty/skills/language has gotten you REALLY concerned, so you lash out at us. It's OK! You know your issues and concerns are NOT NEW! OUR PARENTS went through that TOO!!!! That's basicly a HUGE downside of oral only....b/c a lot of kids going through the formal oral deaf system have significent spoken language issues. That in turn causes really significent anxiety issues for the parent. "will my child "catch up?" Miss Kat may never have totally fluent oral language but then again, many orally trained kids do not have fluent "native like" oral language (they still have delays simlair to what a lot of hoh kids still have)

You for instance dwell ad nauseum on those students in your school who do not do well with cis but never or very, very, very rarely ever mention those students in your school who are successful implant users.

If you are whining, as usual, about being called anti-ci, which I without doubt believe you are, it has nothing to do with your support of ASL. Your history of posts speaks loud and clear (pardon the expression) as to your true feelings towards cochlear implants.

rick....HUH? Simply mentioning that a lot of the kids she sees have significent issues using their CIs is NOT being anti CI. She's at a Deaf School, which tends to be "last resort placement" , so of course she would see a lot of kids who weren't good implant users. Accusing her of being anti CI, would be like accusing a Deaf School teacher from the 30's/ 40's/50's about being anti HA but they saw a lot of kids who weren't good HA users.

 

[AlleyCat]

i don't know who may have said that ha's and ci's were not worth the time or to say they were not important. We have all said that a full tool-box approach is good and should be "offered". That full tool-box could include: Ha's, ci's, speech, asl, pse, and whatever other avenues would benefit that child or person. A lot of us were never offered that when we really could have benefited from it and that is why we are saying it is important. We only want to avoid any heartache or stigma from any others that we ourselves have had to deal with.

+2 !!

 

[rick48]

rick....HUH? Simply mentioning that a lot of the kids she sees have significent issues using their CIs is NOT being anti CI. She's at a Deaf School, which tends to be "last resort placement" , so of course she would see a lot of kids who weren't good implant users. Accusing her of being anti CI, would be like accusing a Deaf School teacher from the 30's/ 40's/50's about being anti HA but they saw a lot of kids who weren't good HA users.

So no one who works at a Deaf school can be anti-ci, well if you say so. Who am I to argue with a person who believes tossing a hackey sack around a classroom is an appropriate substitute for CART services and a reason to deny CART services.

I guess we are all imagining things because according to you, her and a few others there are no people on this forum who oppose cochlear implants for children.

Who is writing those posts then? Pro-implant people?

BTW have you provided those sources yet?

 

[Bebonang]

I have never seen a post that says "Yes, ASL is amazingly important, you should do everything in your power to make sure your child has access to ASL, and so is spoken language. It's a lot of work to keep those hearing aids on in the early years, but it is so important. Make sure you get a great aural rehab specialist. It really makes a difference. Are you doing AV or just spoken language therapy?" That never, ever happens. Yes, people here value ASL, but I have never seen them value or emphasis spoken language as equal.

ASL!!!!!

 

[shel90]

Then, if I am so anti-CI then I shouldn't be friends with CI users, according to Rick.

I have mentioned about kids who have oral skills and can code switch. In fact I remember I said those exact words in another thread a while back...

"It is so amazing to see them code switch between spoken English and ASL."

I think many of you tend to attack me because you seem to ave forgotten the fact that I have brought up those who are successful oral users.

I am passionate about those who end up suffering all because ASL wasn't a part of their toolbox.

I could say that many of your attitudes show a serious lack of empathy for those who have suffered as long as there are some deaf kids who have met your standards but I won't do that.

Like I said, if there are people saying anti-CI comments about the CIs themselves, address them directly. Don't call us who are passionate about advocating for ASL as anti-CI automatically because that is full of crap.

 

[BecLak]

I am passionate about those who end up suffering all because ASL wasn't a part of their toolbox.

I could say that many of your attitudes show a serious lack of empathy for those who have suffered as long as there are some deaf kids who have met your standards but I won't do that.

Shel. You said it!

 

[Buffalo]

No we should not stop advocating ASL. If they want oral only, they will go away.
The ones who stay will learn and be happy.

You really can't give up your values just to be popular.

Yes! We should stick to our guns especially when it comes to truth.

 

[faire_jour]

Then, if I am so anti-CI then I shouldn't be friends with CI users, according to Rick.

I have mentioned about kids who have oral skills and can code switch. In fact I remember I said those exact words in another thread a while back...

"It is so amazing to see them code switch between spoken English and ASL."

I think many of you tend to attack me because you seem to ave forgotten the fact that I have brought up those who are successful oral users.

I am passionate about those who end up suffering all because ASL wasn't a part of their toolbox.

I could say that many of your attitudes show a serious lack of empathy for those who have suffered as long as there are some deaf kids who have met your standards but I won't do that.

Like I said, if there are people saying anti-CI comments about the CIs themselves, address them directly. Don't call us who are passionate about advocating for ASL as anti-CI automatically because that is full of crap.

Again, why aren't you advocating for spoken language as well as ASL as part of this "tool box"? Why aren't you making suggestions about therapy and auditory training as well as ASL?

 

[Buffalo]

Many posters have indeed said children should not get cis and that they are against implants for children and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Additionally, we are not fooled by those posters who write the words "I am not against cochlear implants for children" but whose many posts regarding cochlear implants and treatment of those either with implants or who have children with implants reveals their true feelings towards implants.

You for instance dwell ad nauseum on those students in your school who do not do well with cis but never or very, very, very rarely ever mention those students in your school who are successful implant users.

If you are whining, as usual, about being called anti-ci, which I without doubt believe you are, it has nothing to do with your support of ASL. Your history of posts speaks loud and clear (pardon the expression) as to your true feelings towards cochlear implants.
Rick

Shel90 is not anti-CI in kids so why giving her a hard time? I don't agree with Shel90 on this one. I prefer to see that the kid opt for CI when he/she is of legal age like 18 years old.

 

[BecLak]

Again, why aren't you advocating for spoken language as well as ASL as part of this "tool box"? Why aren't you making suggestions about therapy and auditory training as well as ASL?

Therapy and auditory training suggests exactly what we have said all along that oral speech does not come naturally for d/Deaf.

ie: My husband speaks several languages fluently. Our 'home' language together with me and our children is English (his 4th language). Our children are gaining fluency in the other languges too. However, my point here is that my husband, despite the fact he can speak each language fluently, he still needs times where he can speak his natural language freely.
I am happy to give him those times.

Having access to sign language to the d/Deaf is vitally important to make oral programs and therapy successful, if not, the programs will never achieve their full potential and it will become a frustrated effort such as was in the case of Shel90, myself and many others on this forum.

You have done the right thing by your child to have given her a 'full toolbox'. (I just personally do not agree with intrusive surgery for non-life threatening conditions.) However, your efforts to make her as 'hearing' as possible should also be balanced in her 'deaf identity'. If you have that balance - you have my applause. Please take some time along the way, to smell the flowers, laugh a little and don't burn yourself out.

 

[faire_jour]

Therapy and auditory training suggests exactly what we have said all along that oral speech does not come naturally for d/Deaf.

ie: My husband speaks several languages fluently. Our 'home' language together with me and our children is English (his 4th language). Our children are gaining fluency in the other languges too. However, my point here is that my husband, despite the fact he can speak each language fluently, he still needs times where he can speak his natural language freely.
I am happy to give him those times.

Having access to sign language to the d/Deaf is vitally important to make oral programs and therapy successful, if not, the programs will never achieve their full potential and it will become a frustrated effort such as was in the case of Shel90, myself and many others on this forum.

You have done the right thing by your child to have given her a 'full toolbox'. (I just personally do not agree with intrusive surgery for non-life threatening conditions.) However, your efforts to make her as 'hearing' as possible should also be balanced in her 'deaf identity'. If you have that balance - you have my applause. Please take some time along the way, to smell the flowers, laugh a little and don't burn yourself out.

Number one, my child is not hearing, not at all, and for you to suggest that I see her that way is offensive. My daughter is Deaf. She will always be that way. No one, except God himself can change that.

Number two, my whole point is that while people pay lip-service to "full toolbox", they never actually advocate for anything except ASL. They never ask a parent what they are doing about helping develop spoken language. They say they view ASL and English (including spoken English) as EQUAL, but then they never ever talk about it, other than negatively.

As for claims that needing therapy meaning that the language is not natural...that's crap. My daughter had an ASL language delay (because she didn't start ASL until she was 18 months, and her parents had to learn the language before they could provide it to her) so she had pull out language "therapy" for ASL as well. Therapy helps re-mediate, no matter the reason for the delay.

 

[BecLak]

Going by your strong advocacy for oral/speech therapy and spoken language, forgive me for mistaking you to want your child to be 'hearing' given that she is also in a hearing family and totally immersed in a hearing environment.

But you seem to ignore the ones like myself who have had a first-hand experience of what it is to be deaf having been raised oral and not have the access to sign language and the sense of identity derived from being Deaf. And often try to invalidate it.

It is obvious that you have done everything possible for your child. That is commendable. Yet, there are many who do not have the knowledge or experience you have who need to know, just what it was like for ones like myself. We want to avoid or at least minimise the heartache and hardships that we had to face happening to someone else. That is why our experiences should be recognised.

Language Delay

Language delay is often slapped on young children as something that is defective. I don't agree. My uncle who was hearing (he passed away several years ago). Didn't speak until he was 2. But when he did, he spoke in full sentences and intellectually brilliant in both spoken and written. Just MO on that.

 

[shel90]

Going by your strong advocacy for oral/speech therapy and spoken language, forgive me for mistaking you to want your child to be 'hearing' given that she is also in a hearing family and totally immersed in a hearing environment.

But you seem to ignore the ones like myself who have had a first-hand experience of what it is to be deaf having been raised oral and not have the access to sign language and the sense of identity derived from being Deaf. And often try to invalidate it.

It is obvious that you have done everything possible for your child. That is commendable. Yet, there are many who do not have the knowledge or experience you have who need to know, just what it was like for ones like myself. We want to avoid or at least minimise the heartache and hardships that we had to face happening to someone else. That is why our experiences should be recognised.

Language Delay

Language delay is often slapped on young children as something that is defective. I don't agree. My uncle who was hearing (he passed away several years ago). Didn't speak until he was 2. But when he did, he spoke in full sentences and intellectually brilliant in both spoken and written. Just MO on that.

Language deficits are the worst!

 

[faire_jour]

Going by your strong advocacy for oral/speech therapy and spoken language, forgive me for mistaking you to want your child to be 'hearing' given that she is also in a hearing family and totally immersed in a hearing environment.

But you seem to ignore the ones like myself who have had a first-hand experience of what it is to be deaf having been raised oral and not have the access to sign language and the sense of identity derived from being Deaf. And often try to invalidate it.

It is obvious that you have done everything possible for your child. That is commendable. Yet, there are many who do not have the knowledge or experience you have who need to know, just what it was like for ones like myself. We want to avoid or at least minimise the heartache and hardships that we had to face happening to someone else. That is why our experiences should be recognised.

Language Delay

Language delay is often slapped on young children as something that is defective. I don't agree. My uncle who was hearing (he passed away several years ago). Didn't speak until he was 2. But when he did, he spoke in full sentences and intellectually brilliant in both spoken and written. Just MO on that.

Again, my child is NOT fully immersed in the hearing world. She is in a self contained class for the deaf, and she attends a Deaf church, had Deaf friends and our entire family is extremely active in the Deaf community, in fact, I am a member of the bi-bi school's PTA as a "community member".

Just because I value spoken language as well as ASL does not mean that I am "ignoring" anyone. As I have said in the past, I have spoken to many deaf people, some who grew up oral, struggled and then found ASL, but also, many who grew up oral and loved it. They advocate for spoken language for other deaf kids. I have also spoken to many who grew up with both, and those who grew up with ASL and written English. Just because yours is not the only experience that I value, does not mean that I'm not hearing it.

Also, I would like to know how I am "invalidating" your experience.

 

[faire_jour]

Language deficits are the worst!

Then you disagree with her. She was saying it is no big deal.

 

[shel90]

Shel90 is not anti-CI in kids so why giving her a hard time? I don't agree with Shel90 on this one. I prefer to see that the kid opt for CI when he/she is of legal age like 18 years old.

My opinion about CIs on children is the same as what I have stated for years here on AD..that it is not my place to make an opinion about that. I can understand why hearing parents would implant their children but pls pls include ASL and the Deaf community as well. Dont reject them.


I was rejected by the Deaf community at first but I stuck my guns out and now I am very veyr involved with it. I just dont associate myself with those "elite" Deaf members. The parents allow those people to make them think that EVERYONE in the Deaf community is like that when it is not true.


I am AGAINST the audists views that being hearing is better than being deaf or that people need to get themselves fixed to accodomate to the hearing world's standards.

My beliefs are that if a Deaf person who is fluent in English whether spoken or written only or both have EVERY F****** right to have equal access to everything especially in the job market but it is HEARING people who prevent that simply because THEY wont change their ways. they CAN do it but they refuse to do it...why? FEAR??I thought so.
*getting off soapbox*

 

[BecLak]

Language deficits are the worst!

I was emphasising on young children, perhaps better said - toddlers. It does not mean that language deficits aren't prevalent and should not be addressed. I am saying that sometimes 'defections' are diagnosed a little too soon. I understand it is important to pick things up early but then, so many are being misdiagnosed which also has negative consequences.

 

[shel90]

I was emphasising on young children, perhaps better said - toddlers. It does not mean that language deficits aren't prevalent and should not be addressed. I am saying that sometimes 'defections' are diagnosed a little too soon. I understand it is important to pick things up early but then, so many are being misdiagnosed which also has negative consequences.

Language deficits from not having full access to language since spoken language is not fully accessible to deaf children like ASL is. As a result, the kids grow up with serious gaps in their cognitive thinking and even getting exposed to ASL later on to "save" them most of the time wont work.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

My opinion about CIs on children is the same as what I have stated for years here on AD..that it is not my place to make an opinion about that. I can understand why hearing parents would implant their children but pls pls include ASL and the Deaf community as well. Dont reject them.


I was rejected by the Deaf community at first but I stuck my guns out and now I am very veyr involved with it. I just dont associate myself with those "elite" Deaf members. The parents allow those people to make them think that EVERYONE in the Deaf community is like that when it is not true.


I am AGAINST the audists views that being hearing is better than being deaf or that people need to get themselves fixed to accodomate to the hearing world's standards.

My beliefs are that if a Deaf person who is fluent in English whether spoken or written only or both have EVERY F****** right to have equal access to everything especially in the job market but it is HEARING people who prevent that simply because THEY wont change their ways. they CAN do it but they refuse to do it...why? FEAR??I thought so.
*getting off soapbox*

+1

No, I'm not deaf. But, I still agree with this. Why? Because, I have had experience in the "fix me" area. Aided walking. "Lets slap braces on her and throw crutches at her and teach her to walk because her life will be better for it!" Um, no. It didn't enhance my life in any way! What it did was give me a few years of enjoyment, but that was about all. And, that's a more positive advantage then a lot of deafies had back then with hearing aids and oral only. Therapy; whether it's PT, OT, or, ST, is a drag. Been there, done that. I can completely understand how Shel feels.

The problem isn't being deaf or not having the ability to walk. It's society's viewpoint on the above, which sickens me as much as it does the deafies here.