Seeing Voices

[jillio]

Gee, you know all about cued speech, but don't realise that in cued speech is the combination of handshape and lipreading.....
Yep.... tunnelvision![/QUOTE

Cloggy, you are once again mistaken. If you ever bothered to read anything for what was said, rathere than simply looking for points to argue, you would already know that, in numerous posts, I have already stated that CS is an adjunct to speechreading.

And, once again, you are attempting to take the discussion off topic. If these argumentative attempts continue, I will be reporting your posts.

 

[loml]

jillio

But once again, the CS handshpare (not a sign) communicates phonological information, not conceptual inforamtion

.


phoneme information of c/v/c/v/c/v...etc to form each word/sound. Just as hearing children do. This for you is a bad thing? CS never has claimed to be conceptual, nor does it need to be, why keep making the comparison? Having a system that enable children/people to lip read with better accuaracy, how is that a bad thing?

You don't get it.

 

[loml]

consistency .....

CS provides families with a tool that meets their needs. Literacy, language and inclusion are the results. A job well done!

 

[jillio]

jillio.


phoneme information of c/v/c/v/c/v...etc to form each word/sound. Just as hearing children do. This for you is a bad thing? CS never has claimed to be conceptual, nor does it need to be, why keep making the comparison? Having a system that enable children/people to lip read with better accuaracy, how is that a bad thing?

You don't get it.

I did not say that it was a bad thing--only that it is a limited thing in ists usefulness and applicability. It is good, for the relatively few numbers who use it, as an adjunct to speech reading.

No, not just as hearing children do. Hearing children distinguish phonemes not by sight, but by auditory function.

Why does it need to be? Do you know anything at all about language acquisition?

And again, I didn't say it was a bad thing. Only limited.

I daresay I "get it" on a much more complicated level than do you yourself.

 

[jillio]

CS provides families with a tool that meets their needs. Literacy, language and inclusion are the results. A job well done!

Then why are there so few families using it...especially since it has been around for 40 years?

And again........another attempt to take the thread off topic. Do you have any comments on the Sacks' quotes posted?

 

[loml]

Then why are there so few families using it...especially since it has been around for 40 years?

If you got it, you wouldn't ask these questions. You would already know the answer.

Do you know anything at all about language acquisition

What do you think? lol

Only limited.

How does being fluent in English limit a person? How is lip reading with more accuracy, limiting?

No, not just as hearing children do.

Not through the ears,

cued English user learn to read using phonemic strategies. They do not rely on a sight-word approach as their main decoding strategy. They have learned the alphabetic code/phoneme correlation between the printed letter and the English phoneme. They apply phonemic decoding strategies in an interactive manner with their internalized knowledge of the English language to decode the words on the page. Larson

I daresay I "get it" on a much more complicated level than do you yourself.

LOL.... stop looking at it from a much more complicated level, then maybe you WILL get it! LOL

 

[jillio]

If you got it, you wouldn't ask these questions. You would already know the answer.
You didn't answer my question.


What do you think? lol

Ithink "No".

How does being fluent in English limit a person? How is lip reading with more accuracy, limiting?

I didn't say that being fluent in English limits a person....I said CS, as a system of communication, was limited.

Not through the ears,
LOL.... stop looking at it from a much more complicated level, then maybe you WILL get it! LOL

Perhaps if you looked at the complications, you wouldhave a better understanding of the issues.

Here are just a few quotes from the numerous threads of "research" that you have posted. All support the claimthat CS is a system that removes abiguity from lip reading, that it is a system of oral communication, and that the resurgence is the direct result of cochlear implantation. Also noted is extremely infrequent use.[/COLOR

he Learning of Abstract Language


A common impression among educators of hearing-impaired children is that it is very difficult for a deaf child to learn abstract language. Nothing is further from the truth. Verbal abstractions are difficult for a deaf child to understand if

1) he/she is weak in verbal language, or
2) if the verbal abstraction is visually ambiguous, as in unsupported oral/aural communication. Signs for abstract concepts are learned readily by a deaf child through communication in signs
Post # 1; “Abstract Information”, Parenting Forum


Historically in the U.S., support for oral methods prevailed until dissatisfaction with the continued low reading levels of deaf students prompted many to revolt against oral English-based methods and advocate for the use of a signed language. The assumption of some who supported the use of a signed language versus spoken English was it is the language (i.e., English) instead of the communication mode (i.e., speech) that presents special difficulty for deaf children, and that signed languages (i.e., American Sign Language) are learned more easily than traditionally spoken languages, including English.
A number of systems of manually coded English were developed that incorporated signs borrowed from American Sign Language, the word order of English, and additional invented signs to convey morphological elements such as plurals and affixes. Proponents believed that these systems allowed students to develop English vocabulary and syntax. Examples of these systems included: Seeing Essential English or SEE I (Anthony, 1971), Signing Exact English or SEE II (Gustason, Pfetzing, & Zawolkow, 1972), and Signed English (Bornstein, Saulnier,& Hamilton, 1973-1984). These systems have been in widespread use. However, reading levels of deaf students today are virtually the same as they were in the mid-1960s.

There are basically two types of applications of Cued Speech that parents and teachers might consider for deaf students. First, Cued Speech could be used as a tool in reading programs to develop phonics abilities of deaf students who already have some phonological knowledge of English

Teachers who cue the phonemes of English can more easily teach the phoneme-grapheme relationships to deaf children because Cued Speech fully distinguishes the phonemes visually.
Post # 1: “The Advantages”; Deaf Education Forum
"It goes back to having a pathological view of deafness," said Mark Rust, coordinator of the deaf education program at McDaniel College in Westminster. "The pathological view of deafness is, 'I need to fix you.' And the easiest way to fix you is to give you English."

American Sign Language is widely considered the language of deaf people in the U.S., and it is recognized as a foreign language in 40 states, including Maryland. It has no grammatical or syntactical relationship to spoken English. By contrast, cued English is not a language but an aid to English comprehension - a system that helps deaf people read lips with precision. Unlike American Sign Language interpreters, who translate from English to sign language and back, cued speech transliterators use hand signals to make spoken English understood by the deaf.

"When cueing was invented at Gallaudet, it was invented for the purpose of teaching deaf people English reading and writing," Raimondo said. "But what happened is, it got taken over by people who said, 'Let's use it for speaking and spoken language.' So I think it has been used to exclude sign language."

Among all ages, no more than several thousand deaf Americans use cued speech, according to an official with the National Cued Speech Association, which recently held a conference at Towson University to celebrate the technique's 40-year anniversary.
There are only about 100 certified cued speech transliterators in the U.S., according to the agency that handles certification
The problem of finding qualified and/or certified transliterators is enormous," Krause said
A transliterator silently mouths a speaker's words while simultaneously using hand signals to represent each uttered phoneme, one of the 43 vowel-consonant combinations that are the smallest part of English speech.

The shape of the transliterator's hand represents a consonant sound, while the position indicates a vowel.
Not in mainstream
Cued speech transliteration is not a regular component of any mainstream deaf teacher-education program, Krause said, though Gallaudet and Columbia University offer elective courses in the subject.

Lisa Houck, director of curriculum and instruction at the Maryland School for the Deaf, said cued speech is not used there and is not under consideration.

It's also not in use at McDaniel College, which has one of the largest graduate programs in deaf education in the country.

"Our philosophy is, we feel American Sign Language should be the language of instruction," said Rust. "And by developing a strong foundation in ASL, you can lead students to develop English literacy skills."
Post # 1; “It’s Here to Stay”; Deaf Education Forum
Cued Speech and Cochlear Implantation are frequently described as `perfect partners' because Cued Speech gives sound-by-sound access to spoken language by visual means, perfect for optimising language development prior to implantation and for supporting the child in the early years post implantation.
In Spain Cued Speech is the norm in some cochlear implant centres with several specifically recommending its use. In addition, the Complemented Oral Model (Modelo Oral Complementada, MOC) project in southern Spain uses Cued Speech within an oral programme and many of the children in the programme are implanted (at present they have 20 children between 11 and 18 months). The aim is not just to provide first class support for the children but also to publish research.
Although CIs have been an amazing breakthrough for the deaf, outcomes differ from child to child. I would not take the chance of denying a child a visual representation of spoken language until I was sure that they were learning everything through listening
Post #1; “Cued Speech Internationally; Hearing Aids and Cochlear Implants

“I hear nothing. Lipreading is confusing.”
“I hear sound but I don’t
understand it.”
“Even with hearing aids and a cochlear implant, I miss information some or all of the time.”
“My child’s English language and reading skills are below age level.”
“I want our child to be a full part of our family just like his hearing siblings.”


Can you relate? Cued Speech can come to the rescue in each of these situations by eliminating the ambiguity of speech reading.
Post #1; For The Young and Not so Young; Hearing Aids and Cochlear Implants

 

[loml]

an added bonus....

All support the claim that CS is a system that removes abiguity from lip reading,

removing ambiguity of lip reading,YIPEE!!!!

that it is a system of oral communication,

It has not been presented this way, although being a team player CS can certainly work with an oral program.

and that the resurgence is the direct result of cochlear implantation.

No. CS is avalable to support the childs learning. I like that!

2) if the verbal abstraction is visually ambiguous, as in unsupported oral/aural communication. Signs for abstract concepts are learned readily by a deaf child through communication in signs,

if the child already has a good foundation in some form of sign communication(thought I would add the rest of the sentence there)True

Historically in the U.S., support for oral methods prevailed until dissatisfaction with the continued low reading levels of deaf students prompted many to revolt against oral English-based methods and advocate for the use of a signed language. The assumption of some who supported the use of a signed language versus spoken English was it is the language (i.e., English) instead of the communication mode (i.e., speech) that presents special difficulty for deaf children, and that signed languages (i.e., American Sign Language) are learned more easily than traditionally spoken languages, including English. A number of systems of manually coded English were developed that incorporated signs borrowed from American Sign Language, the word order of English, and additional invented signs to convey morphological elements such as plurals and affixes. Proponents believed that these systems allowed students to develop English vocabulary and syntax. Examples of these systems included: Seeing Essential English or SEE I (Anthony, 1971), Signing Exact English or SEE II (Gustason, Pfetzing, & Zawolkow, 1972), and Signed English (Bornstein, Saulnier,& Hamilton, 1973-1984). These systems have been in widespread use. However, reading levels of deaf students today are virtually the same as they were in the mid-1960s.

and???

There are basically two types of applications of Cued Speech that parents and teachers might consider for deaf students. First, Cued Speech could be used as a tool in reading programs to develop phonics abilities of deaf students who already have some phonological knowledge of English

Multiple uses, good!

Teachers who cue the phonemes of English can more easily teach the phoneme-grapheme relationships to deaf children because Cued Speech fully distinguishes the phonemes visually.

Phoneme-grapheme relationships distinguished visually. Raising readers!

"It goes back to having a pathological view of deafness," said Mark Rust, coordinator of the deaf education program at McDaniel College in Westminster. "The pathological view of deafness is, 'I need to fix you.' And the easiest way to fix you is to give you English."

Can't locate that one in Advantages article, where are you getting this one from?? and what does this have to do with CA as a tool for literacy??

American Sign Language is widely considered the language of deaf people in the U.S., and it is recognized as a foreign language in 40 states, including Maryland. It has no grammatical or syntactical relationship to spoken English. By contrast, cued English is not a language but an aid to English comprehension - a system that helps deaf people read lips with precision. Unlike American Sign Language interpreters, who translate from English to sign language and back, cued speech transliterators use hand signals to make spoken English understood by the deaf.

Cued Speech providing equal access to information via transliteration, NOT interpretation. EXCELLENT!

"When cueing was invented at Gallaudet, it was invented for the purpose of teaching deaf people English reading and writing," Raimondo said. "But what happened is, it got taken over by people who said, 'Let's use it for speaking and spoken language.' So I think it has been used to exclude sign language."Which article is this from?? Yes, CS teaches deaf people English reading and writing. Yes it can be used for speaking and spoken languages, added bonus! CS works well with sign language, another bonus!

Among all ages, no more than several thousand deaf Americans use cued speech, according to an official with the National Cued Speech Association, which recently held a conference at Towson University to celebrate the technique's 40-year anniversary

Several thousand, and growing world wide!!!!

There are only about 100 certified cued speech transliterators in the U.S., according to the agency that handles certification
The problem of finding qualified and/or certified transliterators is enormous," Krause said
A transliterator silently mouths a speaker's words while simultaneously using hand signals to represent each uttered phoneme, one of the 43 vowel-consonant combinations that are the smallest part of English speech.

True though this is changing as more parents demand CS.

The shape of the transliterator's hand represents a consonant sound, while the position indicates a vowel

True, nice and consistent!

Not in mainstream

?????

Cued speech transliteration is not a regular component of any mainstream deaf teacher-education program, Krause said, though Gallaudet and Columbia University offer elective courses in the subject

True, not regular but does happen. Things are changing!

Lisa Houck, director of curriculum and instruction at the Maryland School for the Deaf, said cued speech is not used there and is not under consideration.

Okay, unfortunate though.

"It's also not in use at McDaniel College, which has one of the largest graduate programs in deaf education in the country.
Our philosophy is, we feel American Sign Language should be the language of instruction," said Rust. "And by developing a strong foundation in ASL, you can lead students to develop English literacy skills."

Guess that is his philosophy, wonder how its working for him?? Got any SAT scores? or an email...maybe I should email him

Cued Speech and Cochlear Implantation are frequently described as `perfect partners' because Cued Speech gives sound-by-sound access to spoken language by visual means, perfect for optimising language development prior to implantation and for supporting the child in the early years post implantation.

Supporting the child and optimising language, well done!

In Spain Cued Speech is the norm in some cochlear implant centres with several specifically recommending its use. In addition, the Complemented Oral Model (Modelo Oral Complementada, MOC) project in southern Spain uses Cued Speech within an oral programme and many of the children in the programme are implanted (at present they have 20 children between 11 and 18 months). The aim is not just to provide first class support for the children but also to publish research.

First class support and research bonus! Open minded in Spain!

Although CIs have been an amazing breakthrough for the deaf, outcomes differ from child to child. I would not take the chance of denying a child a visual representation of spoken language until I was sure that they were learning everything through listening

Visual representation of spoken language via CS, another excellent point!

“I hear nothing. Lipreading is confusing.”
“I hear sound but I don’t
understand it.”
“Even with hearing aids and a cochlear implant, I miss information some or all of the time.”
“My child’s English language and reading skills are below age level.”
“I want our child to be a full part of our family just like his hearing siblings.”


Can you relate? Cued Speech can come to the rescue in each of these situations by eliminating the ambiguity of speech reading.
Post #1; For The Young and Not so Young; Hearing Aids and Cochlear Implants

CS eliminating the ambiguity of speech reading, good good! Inclusion in your family via CS. So very important!!!

 

[loml]

Mirror mirror on the wall....

Then why are there so few families using it...especially since it has been around for 40 years?

Look in the mirror.

Perhaps if you looked at the complications, you wouldhave a better understanding of the issues

Oh I am looking at the complications, believe me! I have a very clear understanding of the issues.

 

[loml]

Three strikes.... you're out!

What do you think? lol

Ithink "No".

Wrong again.

 

[loml]

Aging like fine wine

What's wrong with older articles. Does it suddenly become "wrong"..

CS research was, is and will continue to be consistent: literacy, language and inclusion. Course there would be MORE research, if there was more money. Perhaps the ASL research will share?

 

[Cloggy]

removing ambiguity of lip reading,YIPEE!!!! It has not been presented this way, although being a team player CS can certainly work with an oral program.
No. CS is avalable to support the childs learning. I like that!


if the child already has a good foundation in some form of sign communication(thought I would add the rest of the sentence there)True

and???

Multiple uses, good!

Phoneme-grapheme relationships distinguished visually. Raising readers!


Can't locate that one in Advantages article, where are you getting this one from?? and what does this have to do with CA as a tool for literacy??

Cued Speech providing equal access to information via transliteration, NOT interpretation. EXCELLENT!

"When cueing was invented at Gallaudet, it was invented for the purpose of teaching deaf people English reading and writing," Raimondo said. "But what happened is, it got taken over by people who said, 'Let's use it for speaking and spoken language.' So I think it has been used to exclude sign language."Which article is this from?? Yes, CS teaches deaf people English reading and writing. Yes it can be used for speaking and spoken languages, added bonus! CS works well with sign language, another bonus!



Several thousand, and growing world wide!!!!

True though this is changing as more parents demand CS.

True, nice and consistent!

?????

True, not regular but does happen. Things are changing!

Okay, unfortunate though.


Guess that is his philosophy, wonder how its working for him?? Got any SAT scores? or an email...maybe I should email him

Supporting the child and optimising language, well done!

First class support and research bonus! Open minded in Spain!


Visual representation of spoken language via CS, another excellent point!

CS eliminating the ambiguity of speech reading, good good! Inclusion in your family via CS. So very important!!!

Makes sense to me..

 

[Cloggy]

A bird decides not to fly south one winter, thinking he can tough it out.

Soon after the first snowfall arrives, he rethinks his plan and heads south anyway alone. It would seem that he left too late, however, because his wings freeze and he must take refuge in a local barn.

Shivering in a pile of hay thinking about how bad his life is, a cow walks by and takes a dump on him.
He isn't happy about this but he soon realizes that the cow crap is warming him up. He is so happy about finally being warm, that he sings a little song.

A barn cat hears this song, digs him out of the cowpie, and eats him.

There are three morals to this story:
1. Someone who craps on you isn't necessarily your enemy.
2. Someone who digs you out of crap isn't necessarily your friend.
3. If you're perfectly happy in a pile of crap-KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!!!

 

[shel90]

My hearing friend who is a deaf ed teacher at the public school and I talked about CS cuz she took classes from Gally on it and has used it in her teaching. She said that it is useful only as a tool for teaching those reading if those aren't fluent in ASL. She told me that she has worked with children who had been using ASL since birth and she mentioned that they do fine with learning how to read and write using the BiBi method but for those who r language delayed, she uses CS. I asked her if it made a difference..she said with some kids it does with others it doesn't.

She said that CS is not a bad thing but wouldn't recommend to use it for language development...just as a tool to help with reading and writing.

Iam taking her word for it cuz she has experience in using CS and the BiBi approach.

 

[jillio]

removing ambiguity of lip reading,YIPEE!!!! It has not been presented this way, although being a team player CS can certainly work with an oral program.
No. CS is avalable to support the childs learning. I like that!

And so is ASL. I like that. It is much older than ASL, it eveolved from the people it serves (deaf, not hearing) and it conveys much more information than does CS.


if the child already has a good foundation in some form of sign communication(thought I would add the rest of the sentence there)True

And your point would be?

and???

Multiple uses, good!

Phoneme-grapheme relationships distinguished visually. Raising readers!

Cognitive research has shown that there are many avenues to kiteracy that do not rely on phoneme/morpheme information of spoken language.


Can't locate that one in Advantages article, where are you getting this one from?? and what does this have to do with CA as a tool for literacy??

I cut and pasted from your articles.
Cued Speech providing equal access to information via transliteration, NOT interpretation. EXCELLENT!

This is a limitation, not an advantage.

"When cueing was invented at Gallaudet, it was invented for the purpose of teaching deaf people English reading and writing," Raimondo said. "But what happened is, it got taken over by people who said, 'Let's use it for speaking and spoken language.' So I think it has been used to exclude sign language."Which article is this from?? Yes, CS teaches deaf people English reading and writing. Yes it can be used for speaking and spoken languages, added bonus! CS works well with sign language, another bonus!

ASL teaches reading and writng skills, is a complete and separate language capable of conveying complete conceptual information. Isn't the issue oneof literacy, not oral skills?



Several thousand, and growing world wide!!!!

Anything to support that?

True though this is changing as more parents demand CS.

Anything to support that? And if more parents are demanding it, it because of the perceived convienence to the parent and not what is in the best interest of the child.

True, nice and consistent!

?????

True, not regular but does happen. Things are changing!

Yes, things are changing slowly. And support for the Bi-Bi method is increasing at a much greater rate.

Okay, unfortunate though.


Guess that is his philosophy, wonder how its working for him?? Got any SAT scores? or an email...maybe I should email him

What exactly, do SAT scores have to do with it? Once again,this is from your post. Go back to it to find the email address.

Supporting the child and optimising language, well done!

CS does not optimize, it limits, bu providing onmy one form of language...English, rather than 2 forms. First class support and research bonus! Open minded in Spain!


Visual representation of spoken language via CS, anot excellent point!

Only for those that adhere to a strict oral environment. Otherwise, spoken langauge does not need to be visable except in written form.

CS eliminating the ambiguity of speech reading, good good! Inclusion in your family via CS. So very important!!!

Only if your family refused to accommodate the deaf child's needs.

 

[jillio]

Look in the mirror.

What? Are you saying that support of sign is holding back CS? Or that CS is not being used by more families because they see the limitaitons? Explain this comment, please.
Oh I am looking at the complications, believe me! I have a very clear understanding of the issues.

I believe that you think you have a clear understanding.

 

[jillio]

CS research was, is and will continue to be consistent: literacy, language and inclusion. Course there would be MORE research, if there was more money. Perhaps the ASL research will share?

I doubt that very seriously. Two different perspectives. And the research has been consistent for any number of years.......deaf children exposed to both sign and speech are the highest academic achievers.

 

[jillio]

A bird decides not to fly south one winter, thinking he can tough it out.

Soon after the first snowfall arrives, he rethinks his plan and heads south anyway alone. It would seem that he left too late, however, because his wings freeze and he must take refuge in a local barn.

Shivering in a pile of hay thinking about how bad his life is, a cow walks by and takes a dump on him.
He isn't happy about this but he soon realizes that the cow crap is warming him up. He is so happy about finally being warm, that he sings a little song.

A barn cat hears this song, digs him out of the cowpie, and eats him.

There are three morals to this story:
1. Someone who craps on you isn't necessarily your enemy.
2. Someone who digs you out of crap isn't necessarily your friend.
3. If you're perfectly happy in a pile of crap-KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!!!

Nice parable, but once again, :topic:

 

[jillio]

My hearing friend who is a deaf ed teacher at the public school and I talked about CS cuz she took classes from Gally on it and has used it in her teaching. She said that it is useful only as a tool for teaching those reading if those aren't fluent in ASL. She told me that she has worked with children who had been using ASL since birth and she mentioned that they do fine with learning how to read and write using the BiBi method but for those who r language delayed, she uses CS. I asked her if it made a difference..she said with some kids it does with others it doesn't.

She said that CS is not a bad thing but wouldn't recommend to use it for language development...just as a tool to help with reading and writing.

Iam taking her word for it cuz she has experience in using CS and the BiBi approach.

Langauge delayed in the sense of having been in an oral environment?

 

[jillio]

Cloggy,

5 hands at the temples, moving forward and together in front of forehead until fingers almost touch.