SEE is a language... It's English...

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GrendelQ said:
I once did, but now I don't think that's all there is to it. In the case of this particular experiment, they took what might be an unknown language (English) out of the equation and measured the students on their learning upon receiving instruction in ASL. They also measured their learning upon receiving instruction in printed text. Found that the ASL-using students, even those who were highly fluent native users, did better learning with the printed text, rather than the signed instruction. The finding that even deaf of deaf did better with printed text than sign was unexpected. In one of Marschark's experiments, deaf students did best using a mixed media approach with real time text (like CART). But in these varied approaches (with spoken language instruction, with ASL instruction, with printed text), the deaf students significantly underperformed hearing students. This led researchers to conclude that it's not a reading issue, or an English as a second language issue, but something else that differentiates the deaf learning process from the hearing learning process yet to be determined.

They are definitely not proposing that spoken language solves all ills -- these experiments show both the ASL-users and spoken English users underperforming.

A few weeks ago Marschark himself, on the NTID site wrote that the problem faces all deaf kids, those with CIs, too. And the solutions aren't yet available.
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That is what I gleaned from my reading as well. One thing, though: they are not taking into consideration that deaf students PROCESS information differently from hearing students. Deaf students are far more visual than the hearing ones, and I wish to goodness someone would consider the fact and make use of it.
 
Beowulf said:
That is what I gleaned from my reading as well. One thing, though: they are not taking into consideration that deaf students PROCESS information differently from hearing students. Deaf students are far more visual than the hearing ones, and I wish to goodness someone would consider the fact and make use of it.
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That's one of the biggest reasons I am excited about CSDB. Colorado - They just are wrapping up a $11 million renovation project designed to make everything visual for the deaf students.

By everything, I mean EVERYTHING.
 
Beowulf said:
That is what I gleaned from my reading as well. One thing, though: they are not taking into consideration that deaf students PROCESS information differently from hearing students. Deaf students are far more visual than the hearing ones, and I wish to goodness someone would consider the fact and make use of it.
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I get the sense that's where they were heading with the mixed media / real-time text idea. I'd love to see what they have in mind for that. I can imagine it could be something beneficial not just to a day learner like my daughter, but to most children, regardless of hearing or not hearing.
 
shel90 said:
To say that a child must know a spoken language in order to be able to read and write is really audist.
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Hi, I'm new to the forum -- I registered about a week ago. Just some quick background I grew up with a hearing loss -- it was probably moderate to severe when I was a child and by the time I became an adult it was moderate to severe to profound (depending upon the pitch). I'm attempting to teach myself ASL now -- the web sites recommended in the stickies here at the forum have been very helpful.

I hope this isn't considered rude but how would a child who was not familiar with English sounds learn how to read and write? When I read I have an internal voice inside my head "vocalizing" the words. Even when I practice fingerspelling I sound out the letters as I see them otherwise I wouldn't be able to come up with the name or word.

Are some of you saying that an option for deaf children is to make a direct connection between a combination of letters and the object or idea it represents? Skipping over an understanding of how it would be vocalized? :confused:

Eh, this is probably going to be considered more of a dumb question than a rude one. Or possibly both. But seriously my intentions are good, I'm just trying to understand what various people on the forum think are good and realistic options. Thanks!
 
GrendelQ said:
I get the sense that's where they were heading with the mixed media / real-time text idea. I'd love to see what they have in mind for that. I can imagine it could be something beneficial not just to a day learner like my daughter, but to most children, regardless of hearing or not hearing.
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Real-time *shudders*
 
GrendelQ said:
I get the sense that's where they were heading with the mixed media / real-time text idea. I'd love to see what they have in mind for that. I can imagine it could be something beneficial not just to a day learner like my daughter, but to most children, regardless of hearing or not hearing.
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posts from hell said:
Real-time *shudders*
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I wish I had real-time texting when I was ready for it. There were times when I wanted the world to stop when I couldn't understand something.
What is the solution?
 
Jazzberry said:
Hi, I'm new to the forum -- I registered about a week ago. Just some quick background I grew up with a hearing loss -- it was probably moderate to severe when I was a child and by the time I became an adult it was moderate to severe to profound (depending upon the pitch). I'm attempting to teach myself ASL now -- the web sites recommended in the stickies here at the forum have been very helpful.

I hope this isn't considered rude but how would a child who was not familiar with English sounds learn how to read and write? When I read I have an internal voice inside my head "vocalizing" the words. Even when I practice fingerspelling I sound out the letters as I see them otherwise I wouldn't be able to come up with the name or word.

Are some of you saying that an option for deaf children is to make a direct connection between a combination of letters and the object or idea it represents? Skipping over an understanding of how it would be vocalized? :confused:

Eh, this is probably going to be considered more of a dumb question than a rude one. Or possibly both. But seriously my intentions are good, I'm just trying to understand what various people on the forum think are good and realistic options. Thanks!
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In my case, I used images to reprenst words. For example, a house to stand in for the word house etc. For more abstract ideas like love, I thought of hearts like the ones you see on Valentines days and when i got older and learned sign, I would think of the sign and the printed words.

I have no idea what a lot of the English words that I know sound like and I would not recogonze them if they were spoken outloud. If someone wrote it down, I'd know.
 
Jazzberry said:
Hi, I'm new to the forum -- I registered about a week ago. Just some quick background I grew up with a hearing loss -- it was probably moderate to severe when I was a child and by the time I became an adult it was moderate to severe to profound (depending upon the pitch). I'm attempting to teach myself ASL now -- the web sites recommended in the stickies here at the forum have been very helpful.

I hope this isn't considered rude but how would a child who was not familiar with English sounds learn how to read and write? When I read I have an internal voice inside my head "vocalizing" the words. Even when I practice fingerspelling I sound out the letters as I see them otherwise I wouldn't be able to come up with the name or word.

Are some of you saying that an option for deaf children is to make a direct connection between a combination of letters and the object or idea it represents? Skipping over an understanding of how it would be vocalized? :confused:

Eh, this is probably going to be considered more of a dumb question than a rude one. Or possibly both. But seriously my intentions are good, I'm just trying to understand what various people on the forum think are good and realistic options. Thanks!
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You don't need to know how to pronounce "apple" when you see an apple, but you can still know what an apple is. You don't need to know how to pronounce "red" to know what red means. A child can be shown a palette of colors and be told "this is blue", "this is red", "this is yellow", and so on. And understand that an apple is red without knowing how to pronounce it. Think outside the box. Think how Helen Keller made the connection.
 
deafskeptic said:
I have no idea what a lot of the English words that I know sound like and I would not recogonze them if they were spoken outloud. If someone wrote it down, I'd know.
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Same here.
 
Same as with parents teaching babies the sign for milk. The babies know they want milk, and have no idea how to say it (I'm even talking about hearing babies here), and can sign "milk" to indicate to mom and dad what they want. I've even seen my 6 month old HEARING niece do it.
 
AlleyCat said:
Same as with parents teaching babies the sign for milk. The babies know they want milk, and have no idea how to say it (I'm even talking about hearing babies here), and can sign "milk" to indicate to mom and dad what they want. I've even seen my 6 month old HEARING niece do it.
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and my HEARING son too.
 
Beowulf said:
I wish I had real-time texting when I was ready for it. There were times when I wanted the world to stop when I couldn't understand something.
What is the solution?
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One of the jury members in my trail actually said that she knew some sign language and thinks that everyone should know sign language.

That brought a tear to my eye, but yeah. That is pretty much the solution.
 
posts from hell said:
Real-time *shudders*
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Used that for a year at my classes at ASU after struggling with oral terps for years. Again, I struggled with them but at that time I was just learning ASL...after 2 years, I requested an ASL terp with a lot of anticipation since I wasnt fluent in it.

Once I got that first class with the ASL terp, it was like allllllllll the missing pieches came together beautifully in all of my classes. After that, I was hooked.
 
so.... what is this talk about children needing to read English? I don't get it.... children can't learn to read until around 4-5 years old... but their communication skill begins much earlier than that. that's where ASL comes in.
 
Jiro said:
so.... what is this talk about children needing to read English? I don't get it.... children can't learn to read until around 4-5 years old... but their communication skill begins much earlier than that. that's where ASL comes in.
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Because this is America and without English, you are worth a pile of s***!
 
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