Reverse Discrimination Case

[lsfoster]

You missed the point in my situation. I stated that the oral portion was intended to check for grammar usage. Is grammar usage more important to performing the skills necessary for an IT job that is knowledge of computer applications? The answer is no. So the test should not have been weighted so that it actually gave results that indicated who had better grammar usage rather than who had better skills necessary to perform the job. The test was not valid because it did not test what it was intended to test, for Asians or non-Asians alike. Therefore, even those that did well did not properly have their skills for job performance assessed. That created a situation where cultural bias would then come into play Asians scored poorly on the grammar portion, it was weighted improperly, and therefore, due to the improper weight, and the problems with content and context validity, created a problem that divided scores disparately based on a criterion that was not an important feature in the ability to do a job. It is tatamount to saying, "We won't hire you to flip hamburgers because you can't throw a ball."

Again, a specific hypothetical situation that has nothing to do with the actual discussion. Arguing for the sake of arguing, right there.

 

[Byrdie714]

in case you didn't know... you do not need to have a college education to be a police officer. Either college education or couple years in armed force plus high school diploma or GED. Obviously - that's why some officers become detectives or white-shirt officer (chief/captain/etc.) and some don't - college degree makes a big difference (which is no brainer). and yes I'm quite aware of it because we have a good ole' famous John Jay in NYC and my fellow friends have graduated from there. And no I didn't expect many officers/firefighters to have college degrees... otherwise they wouldn't have this job.

guess you're still a little rusty. too bad I can't pat on your head......... I need a ladder!!

No offense but would you rather take the word of a college degree police/firefighter over a high school graduate police/firefighter?

If not....then your perogative. :roll:

and at least I admitted my mistakes. Has Jillio done same? Last time I recall............. oh wait - never!

Yeah right!

Because you quoted mine first when you quoted them. My point was that she said the firefighters made this about race, and that's clearly false. The city made this about race since that was what made them decide to throw out the results.

The city didn't throw out the results. The fire department threw out the results. The firefighters are only suing themselves dragging the city along for the ride.

By that logic, any black person who stood up for their rights was "bringing it on themselves". All the gay couples who have started lawsuits for their rights are simply "bringing it on themselves". It works both ways. Discrimination is not a one-way issue. Nobody has said anything about what would happen if the situation was reversed. I'm assuming that's because nobody could actually argue that if the city threw out the results when black firefighters did well, they would have a lawsuit on them so quickly their heads would spin. If it's discrimination in one case, it's discrimination in the other.

Okay and your point is.......

This was the individuals' choice to put themselves up for promotion. There is no information anywhere saying that the firehouse is somehow "responsible" for teaching the firefighters the information required to make themselves qualified for that promotion. The materials were clearly available, and it was up to each man to learn the required information.

I disagree. Afterall if the fire department hires new recruits, do you think that they will send them into a burning building without the proper tools and mechanics of how to fight a fire? :roll:

And if the city had handled the situation correctly to begin with, or responded to any of the complaints and requests from the firefighters, they would not have been in the position to be sued.

They didn't give the city enough time to respond. Afterall one has to open up the investigation, be appointed, etc, just like any other government agency.

First of all, no, no they don't. Only if you want to have an extremely narrow and skewed view of both can you say that. You contradict it yourself in your next sentence. First race and culture go hand in hand, then my race puts me at an advantage regardless of my sexuality, which would imply that they are not "hand in hand".

They do. Period.

My roommate in college was Korean, adopted by a white family. How do her race and culture go hand in hand? Would the "analysis" that jillio is performing categorize her correctly if the only information available was her race? Or take another one of jillio's examples, where I would be deemed mentally ill on some hypothetical exam because I'm gay. How does that reflect a "cultural bias" if you only consider race?

There are exams out there that would label you as mentally ill for being a lesbian. The trick is: don't take the test. :roll:

All I've said is that jillio can't make any relevant "analysis" since the only information she has is about race. All you've done is give an example of how just looking at race would ignore many "cultural" issues, which to me just backs up my point

.

Race, culture and gender. Afterall--they were all men that took the exam.

ah - the post #248. I see that you made a lengthy last-minute edit. it's about time. let's see if my mind can grasp it.

If it knows how.

 

[lsfoster]

The city didn't throw out the results. The fire department threw out the results. The firefighters are only suing themselves dragging the city along for the ride.

Again, please take the time to at least read the articles before commenting. The city of New Haven threw out the results. It's very clearly stated in every article that has been provided.

Okay and your point is.......

"If it's discrimination in one case, it's discrimination in the other." You might also try taking the time to read the posts you criticize before doing so.

I disagree. Afterall if the fire department hires new recruits, do you think that they will send them into a burning building without the proper tools and mechanics of how to fight a fire? :roll:

You are comparing two things that are not the same. Being trained as a firefighter does not imply that one is qualified for a promotion. We have already covered that nobody has a copy of the test to know what they required for "qualification". I'm not even sure what the point of this comment is. The fact that you "disagree" does not provide any evidence that the firehouse is responsible for anything more than making the material available. So basically you didn't add anything to what I said.

They didn't give the city enough time to respond. Afterall one has to open up the investigation, be appointed, etc, just like any other government agency.

No, one just has to provide another test. The city had over 6 months to respond to the situation before any complaint was filed, and more before this actually became a lawsuit. The fact that they didn't respond is just another example of why I think they've handled the situation poorly.

They do. Period.

Not based on your own posts. You can't sound definitive when you've just finished contradicting yourself.

There are exams out there that would label you as mentally ill for being a lesbian. The trick is: don't take the test. :roll:

By that logic, the black firefighters just shouldn't have taken this test and there would be no issue. Not the best argument I've heard.

 

[Byrdie714]

Again, please take the time to at least read the articles before commenting. The city of New Haven threw out the results. It's very clearly stated in every article that has been provided.

No, the department threw out the results. Not the city. I stand corrected.

La Shawn Barber : Supreme Court to Hear New Haven Race Case - Townhall.com

New Haven firefighter Frank Ricci did what he was supposed to do. He bought the recommended books and studied for a promotion exam. Despite his dyslexia, Ricci scored high enough to qualify for a promotion, but the department threw out all test results. No blacks and only two Hispanics scored high enough to be promoted......

I took the liberty of highlighting it and bolding it for you since it's apparent one picks-n-chooses what they want to read and understand. :roll:

"If it's discrimination in one case, it's discrimination in the other." You might also try taking the time to read the posts you criticize before doing so.

You just don't want to admit to the fact that not all races are created equal. You apparently have this notion that we live in a "rose color-glasses"
world.

I have read ever post before getting involved in this discussion. The difference is that one is using logic, the other isn't. One is using their arguments without emotion, the other is.

I don't think we need to differentiate who is doing what.

You are comparing two things that are not the same. Being trained as a firefighter does not imply that one is qualified for a promotion. We have already covered that nobody has a copy of the test to know what they required for "qualification". I'm not even sure what the point of this comment is. The fact that you "disagree" does not provide any evidence that the firehouse is responsible for anything more than making the material available. So basically you didn't add anything to what I said.

The point I was making and apparently--you overlooked-- is that anytime one is hired by their employer, the employer has to provide all of the training as well as provide all the educational materials to ensure the success of their employees whether the employees are qualified for an upper position or not.

You do understand that do you?

No, one just has to provide another test. The city had over 6 months to respond to the situation before any complaint was filed, and more before this actually became a lawsuit. The fact that they didn't respond is just another example of why I think they've handled the situation poorly.

6 months is not enough time for the City to investigate and interview each and every firefighter that took the exam before making their decision. Government works much slower than that. (Except when we got our stimulus checks--I have never seen a government agency work that fast.)

Not based on your own posts. You can't sound definitive when you've just finished contradicting yourself.

No worse than yours.

By that logic, the black firefighters just shouldn't have taken this test and there would be no issue. Not the best argument I've heard.

How can this lawsuit be "reverse discrimination" in the first place when there is indeed a minority that is part of the lawsuit as well?

I think everyone is getting a little emotional over this topic and trying to "outsmart" one another by mocking as well as discrediting one's posts which you have clearly demonstrated since page one.

All I'm merely trying to point out is that there is more to the picture than what we know and will never know.

 

[Daredevel7]

You missed the point in my situation. I stated that the oral portion was intended to check for grammar usage. Is grammar usage more important to performing the skills necessary for an IT job that is knowledge of computer applications? The answer is no. So the test should not have been weighted so that it actually gave results that indicated who had better grammar usage rather than who had better skills necessary to perform the job. The test was not valid because it did not test what it was intended to test, for Asians or non-Asians alike. Therefore, even those that did well did not properly have their skills for job performance assessed. That created a situation where cultural bias would then come into play Asians scored poorly on the grammar portion, it was weighted improperly, and therefore, due to the improper weight, and the problems with content and context validity, created a problem that divided scores disparately based on a criterion that was not an important feature in the ability to do a job. It is tatamount to saying, "We won't hire you to flip hamburgers because you can't throw a ball."

That's a little extreme about hamburgers/throwing ball. It's more like:
Boss: "Why don't you just stay at flipping hamburgers? We tested to see if you are a good people person, and you are not, so we won't promote you to the front as a cashier."
Worker: "OMG you're so racist. It's cuz Im black isn't it?"
Boss: "No!! No!! Um um.. why don't I give you guys another test? Only this time, I'll test how good you are at flipping hamburgers!!!"

 

[Daredevel7]

To me, there's two ways to change the test:

1) Adjusting the weights until (hopefully) an even distribution (from the old scores) comes up.
2) Redoing the test keeping in mind what exactly this test is for and trying to remove all the cultural bias WITHOUT looking at the possible scores of the population. They are free to test it on other people though.

What exactly do you advocate for, Jillio? One of them? Both of them? None of them?

 

[lsfoster]

No, the department threw out the results. Not the city. I stand corrected.

La Shawn Barber : Supreme Court to Hear New Haven Race Case - Townhall.com

I took the liberty of highlighting it and bolding it for you since it's apparent one picks-n-chooses what they want to read and understand. :roll:

I have never used townhall.com, but here are the previously linked articles that I was referring to.

According to FoxNews.com: "This week, the Supreme Court will consider the reverse discrimination claim of Marcarelli and a group of white firefighters. They all passed a promotion exam, but the city threw out the test because no blacks would have been promoted, saying the exam had a "disparate impact" on minorities likely to violate the 1964 Civil Rights Act."
FOXNews.com - Reverse Discrimination Case Could Transform Hiring Procedures Nationwide - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

According to the NYTimes: "Mr. Ricci did well, he said, coming in sixth among the 77 candidates who took the exam. But the city threw out the test, because none of the 19 African-American firefighters who took it qualified for promotion."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/10/us/10scotus.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

According to abcnews: "None of the black firefighters scored well enough for an immediate promotion. As a result, the city threw out the test results."
New Haven, Ct. Firefighters Claim Reverse Discrimination - ABC News

All I know is that your article is by a freelance writer/ blogger. You might want to use a more reliable source to back up your statements next time.

You just don't want to admit to the fact that not all races are created equal. You apparently have this notion that we live in a "rose color-glasses" world.

To me, each individual is responsible for themselves. I'm not sure what that has to do with living in a "rose-colored glasses world". I'm also not sure what your response had to do with my comment. I said that if the situation was reversed, and only blacks had been eligible for promotion, and the city had thrown out the results, nobody has argued that that would be discrimination. The fact that the race of the people involved is different makes it no less discriminatory.

I have read ever post before getting involved in this discussion. The difference is that one is using logic, the other isn't. One is using their arguments without emotion, the other is.

I don't think we need to differentiate who is doing what.

If you have read every post, then you don't seem to have understood the point of many of them. I have presented all my arguments clearly and concisely, and simply asked many times that jillio stop insulting and being condescending to the other posters in the thread. I don't see how that's arguing "with emotion", it's asking that we maintain a certain level of dignity in our posts that I think should be easily accessible.

The point I was making and apparently--you overlooked-- is that anytime one is hired by their employer, the employer has to provide all of the training as well as provide all the educational materials to ensure the success of their employees whether the employees are qualified for an upper position or not.

You do understand that do you?

Unless you have specific evidence to prove that this is true for firefighters, I will remain skeptical. I have friends who work at the firehouse, and they have never indicated that anyone other than themselves are responsible for them learning to do their job. Likewise, I have seen plenty of people simply lose their job or not get hired as a result of being unqualified for the position. But if you're right, then I'm definitely going down the street to the medical center and informing them that they have to train me to be a doctor, I'll make way more money and apparently they have to pay to make me qualified. My friends in med school will be so mad.....

6 months is not enough time for the City to investigate and interview each and every firefighter that took the exam before making their decision. Government works much slower than that. (Except when we got our stimulus checks--I have never seen a government agency work that fast.)

It took the city under a month to decide to throw out the results. They clearly did so without taking the time to decide how to best handle the situation. If that resulted in a lawsuit against them, then that's their own fault.

No worse than yours.

If you can quote a post where I contradicted myself, please do.

How can this lawsuit be "reverse discrimination" in the first place when there is indeed a minority that is part of the lawsuit as well?

I think everyone is getting a little emotional over this topic and trying to "outsmart" one another by mocking as well as discrediting one's posts which you have clearly demonstrated since page one.

All I'm merely trying to point out is that there is more to the picture than what we know and will never know.

Again, if you read my posts you would see that I've said more than once that this isn't about "reverse discrimination", it's just discrimination plain and simple. Discrimination is not simply against minorities. Also, this again had nothing to do with the part of my post that it was responding to. You simply ignored the fact that you used a poor argument. Unless you're tacitly agreeing that it was, in which case that's fine.

Also, read my posts (again) and you will see that I've been saying the whole time that there are far too many factors to consider, and too much information that is unavailable to us to say anything definitive. I agree, there is too much to the picture. I've been trying to explain this to jillio, who seems convinced that she is the be-all and end-all voice of authority in this thread. If you would like to help explain to her that she cannot make the definitive statements she has been making, I'm sure many people in this thread would greatly appreciate it.

 

[jillio]

Again, a specific hypothetical situation that has nothing to do with the actual discussion. Arguing for the sake of arguing, right there.

It has everything to do with the situation. Your inability to see the connectedness is your weakness, not mine. Again with the elephant in the middle of the room that you refuse to acknowledge...or are too blind to see. I have begun to wonder which it really is.

 

[lsfoster]

You missed the point in my situation. I stated that the oral portion was intended to check for grammar usage. Is grammar usage more important to performing the skills necessary for an IT job that is knowledge of computer applications? The answer is no. So the test should not have been weighted so that it actually gave results that indicated who had better grammar usage rather than who had better skills necessary to perform the job. The test was not valid because it did not test what it was intended to test, for Asians or non-Asians alike. Therefore, even those that did well did not properly have their skills for job performance assessed. That created a situation where cultural bias would then come into play Asians scored poorly on the grammar portion, it was weighted improperly, and therefore, due to the improper weight, and the problems with content and context validity, created a problem that divided scores disparately based on a criterion that was not an important feature in the ability to do a job. It is tatamount to saying, "We won't hire you to flip hamburgers because you can't throw a ball."

Let me say it again: we have no information about the test. We don't know what it was supposed to test, what it did test, or anything else about it. Nor does any of that matter. The issue is not the test, but the city's decision to throw out the results. You keep inventing these hypothetical situations where someone says, "You want to be a writer? Well first we need to test your ability to play soccer..." And throwing them around as if they mean something. They don't. You can't say anything about the test, so instead you keep making up these ridiculous situations and pretending that they are analogous to the one being discussed.

It has everything to do with the situation. Your inability to see the connectedness is your weakness, not mine. Again with the elephant in the middle of the room that you refuse to acknowledge...or are too blind to see. I have begun to wonder which it really is.

Again: this is about the city's decision. A fact that has been pointed out many times, and that you have continued to ignore. You can come up with hundreds of made up "Before you can be a carpenter, we need to see if you can play piano" situations, but it doesn't make any of them relevant, and it simply highlights even further the fact that you refuse to comment on the actual issue at hand.

If you can give any good reason that your hypothetical situation relates to this discussion, I would love to see it. And "valid testing" does not count, since we still do not have any information about the test itself to say anything about it. Otherwise, I don't see what grammar, IT skills, or being asian has to do with this conversation. If you'd like to start another thread about those issues, you are free to do so.

 

[jillio]

No, the elephant in the room is the fact that we have no way of knowing if the people who did poorly on the exam were simply less qualified. You keep dancing around that issue without actually responding to it.

No we don't. BECAUSE THE TEST WAS INVALID. IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION, THEY HAVE TO BE GIVEN A VALID TEST. I have stated that over and over and over again. That is not dancing around anything. It is a definitive statement. You are simply ignoring it because it refutes your convoluted logic.

Again, you avoid the point. This is not an issue of the skew, or the results, or the test, or anything. It is an issue of "did the city respond correctly". The fact is, they threw the results out for one reason: they didn't want a lawsuit from the black firefighters who didn't get promoted. You have yet to give any reason that this is an acceptable thing to do. You instead continue to argue other points and insult everyone else in the thread.

That is exactly what the issue is. In light of the skew, the city most certainly did act appropriately. Had the scores not been discarded, based on what the test scores indicate and the problems the professionals found with the test validity, they would have been guilty of violating several laws. I suggest you spend some time doing some research into the topic. Obviously, you are incapable of performing statistical analysis and interpreting such, so why don't you start with the legal concepts behind testing and assessment. You can start with reviewing the Supreme Court case of Giggs vs. the Duke Power Co.. It is a precedent upon which this case has been dismissed.


No, clearly you don't, since you seem concretely opposed to reading the original articles or anyone's posts. You still haven't said anything about the real reason that the city threw out the results. Even if the test is found to be invalid, it does not justify the fact that they made a discriminatory decision. That would be like saying that if we had found WMD's, the fact that Bush illegally started a war he has no right to start was perfectly fine. It doesn't matter. The test, the skew, none of that has to do with the actual topic: did the city discriminate against the white firefighters when they threw out the results to avoid a lawsuit for not promoting any black firefighters? I say yes. So far, you have said absolutely nothing about it, despite the fact that it has been brought up numerous times.

Okay. lsfoster. What is the real reason the city threw out the tests? How did they make a discriminatory decision, and what exactly are the legal precedents that would lead you to that conclusion? What would be the justification, either legal or ethical, for retaining the scores of a testing instrument that has been found to be lacking in several forms of validity? What exactly does the skew in scores tell you? I have said plenty about it. By retaining scores that favored white candidates through inherent flaws in the testing instrument, they would have been creating a situation of discrimination against the minority candidates. Therefore, ALL scores were thrown out....the ones that created bias for white candidates, and the ones that created bias against the minorities. They did not retain the minority scores and throw out only the white scores. They threw them all out. If the white candidates are truly so much more qualified, as you keep claiming, then they will do just as well on a valid test. Now your turn. Answer the questions.

I'm arguing for the sake of arguing? Since I'm the one who side-tracked the discussion into "cultural bias" and wasted pages in an argument about SPSS results and whether or not they're being calculated correctly? This is a very simple topic, you just refuse to actually discuss it.

What's the matter? Having difficuty following an in depth discussion? This isn't as simplistic as you would like to believe it is.But that's okay. I can live with your naivete, because you are not in a profession that either makes legal decisions, nor is responsible for testing and assessment. So you just keep thinking it as simplistic. You just make it much greater a risk that you will be the victim of discrimination through invalid testing and assessment.

Also, I will point out again that many people have commented on the fact that you have no response to most points made against you other than ignoring the comment and insulting the person making it, and that you have offered nothing more than your "say-so" for just about everything you've said.

What many people might those be, lsfoster? And I have offered much more than my say-so. My say-so on the topic comes directly from the experts in the area of test and assessment validity and reliability and are accepted within the field. There is an entire group of professionals and decades of research and study that support what I have stated regarding test validity.

 

[jillio]

That's a little extreme about hamburgers/throwing ball. It's more like:
Boss: "Why don't you just stay at flipping hamburgers? We tested to see if you are a good people person, and you are not, so we won't promote you to the front as a cashier."
Worker: "OMG you're so racist. It's cuz Im black isn't it?"
Boss: "No!! No!! Um um.. why don't I give you guys another test? Only this time, I'll test how good you are at flipping hamburgers!!!"

Still missing the point. If the test actually tested for this person's "people skills" then disparity in scores based on race would not be an issue. You are ignoring the fact that the professionals cited problems with the weight in items that compromised both content and construct validity.

You guys really do need to stop focusing on race, and look at the fact that the test was not valid for either the white firefighters not the minority firefighters. Some scores were artificially inflated, meaning that they did not provide an accurate representation of qualification, and some scores were artificially deflated, meaning that they did not provide an accurate representation of qualification. ALL scores were thrown out...both those that were artificially inflated and those that were artificially deflated, because none of the scores were contained predictive ability regarding job skills necessary for the job being tested for.

 

[jillio]

No, the department threw out the results. Not the city. I stand corrected.

La Shawn Barber : Supreme Court to Hear New Haven Race Case - Townhall.com



I took the liberty of highlighting it and bolding it for you since it's apparent one picks-n-chooses what they want to read and understand. :roll:



You just don't want to admit to the fact that not all races are created equal. You apparently have this notion that we live in a "rose color-glasses"
world.

I have read ever post before getting involved in this discussion. The difference is that one is using logic, the other isn't. One is using their arguments without emotion, the other is.

I don't think we need to differentiate who is doing what.



The point I was making and apparently--you overlooked-- is that anytime one is hired by their employer, the employer has to provide all of the training as well as provide all the educational materials to ensure the success of their employees whether the employees are qualified for an upper position or not.

You do understand that do you?



6 months is not enough time for the City to investigate and interview each and every firefighter that took the exam before making their decision. Government works much slower than that. (Except when we got our stimulus checks--I have never seen a government agency work that fast.)



No worse than yours.



How can this lawsuit be "reverse discrimination" in the first place when there is indeed a minority that is part of the lawsuit as well?

I think everyone is getting a little emotional over this topic and trying to "outsmart" one another by mocking as well as discrediting one's posts which you have clearly demonstrated since page one.

All I'm merely trying to point out is that there is more to the picture than what we know and will never know.

Agreed. This has become a game of "ask Jillio to substantiate her points" and then when she does substantiate the points, it becomes a game of "let's see if we can argue the fact that she can substantiate her points." I have asked again and again, if what I claim regarding the validity and reliability of testing instruments is incorrect, and if what I say about the statistical analysis of the the test scores is incorrect, to please offer their own statistical analysis and facts regarding testing and assessment to refute it. To date, no one has been able to do that. Instead, they simply continue to argue absurd points in an attempt to disquise the fact that they cannot provide such.

It is really a shame that these people are not teaching at a graduate level....they seem to think they know so much more than those who do, as well as those that deal with testing and assesment issues as a part of their profession.:roll: And they should be teaching law school courses as well, Byrdie, because they seem to think they are able to interpret the legal ramifications and what proof needs to be provided regarding the test scores in order to convince not one, not two, but three courts of law that the dismissing of scores was appropriate action under the law based on the test that was used. And they are able to determine all of that without ever looking at a precedent. It is truly amazing, I tell you.

 

[lsfoster]

No we don't. BECAUSE THE TEST WAS INVALID. IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION, THEY HAVE TO BE GIVEN A VALID TEST. I have stated that over and over and over again. That is not dancing around anything. It is a definitive statement. You are simply ignoring it because it refutes your convoluted logic.

I haven't ignored it. I've said many times that if the city felt the test was invalid they should have administered another one. The problem is that the city didn't throw out the results because they thought it was invalid, therefore no other test was administered.

That is exactly what the issue is. In light of the skew, the city most certainly did act appropriately. Had the scores not been discarded, based on what the test scores indicate and the problems the professionals found with the test validity, they would have been guilty of violating several laws. I suggest you spend some time doing some research into the topic. Obviously, you are incapable of performing statistical analysis and interpreting such, so why don't you start with the legal concepts behind testing and assessment. You can start with reviewing the Supreme Court case of Giggs vs. the Duke Power Co.. It is a precedent upon which this case has been dismissed.

Okay. lsfoster. What is the real reason the city threw out the tests? How did they make a discriminatory decision, and what exactly are the legal precedents that would lead you to that conclusion? What would be the justification, either legal or ethical, for retaining the scores of a testing instrument that has been found to be lacking in several forms of validity? What exactly does the skew in scores tell you? I have said plenty about it. By retaining scores that favored white candidates through inherent flaws in the testing instrument, they would have been creating a situation of discrimination against the minority candidates. Therefore, ALL scores were thrown out....the ones that created bias for white candidates, and the ones that created bias against the minorities. They did not retain the minority scores and throw out only the white scores. They threw them all out. If the white candidates are truly so much more qualified, as you keep claiming, then they will do just as well on a valid test. Now your turn. Answer the questions.

The city threw out the test results, as is stated in almost all of the articles provided in this thread, because they were worried about a lawsuit since no black firefighters were immediately eligible for promotion. It's not a hard concept to grasp. There was no question about the "test lacking in validity", they felt that it would look bad and they would probably get sued for discrimination, so they threw out the results.

I've already said that the argument that throwing out the test scores for everyone is no better than saying that banning inter-racial marriage is justified because it has the same effect on both races. I have already answered the questions you are aggressively asking, you just don't seem to have bothered to read my posts.

You have still not answered my question, what would happen in the reverse situation? How do you think people would respond if the city had thrown out all the test scores because only black firefighters were eligible for promotion? I answered yours (again), your turn.

What's the matter? Having difficuty following an in depth discussion? This isn't as simplistic as you would like to believe it is.But that's okay. I can live with your naivete, because you are not in a profession that either makes legal decisions, nor is responsible for testing and assessment. So you just keep thinking it as simplistic. You just make it much greater a risk that you will be the victim of discrimination through invalid testing and assessment.

Difficulty with the discussion? Not at all. It would be easier if you could stick to the actual topic and stop insulting others and now yelling in your posts. And don't worry, I can live with your naivete also, since I'm the one that's in a scientific field that actually believes in real answers, and things aren't so "open to interpretation".

What many people might those be, lsfoster? And I have offered much more than my say-so. My say-so on the topic comes directly from the experts in the area of test and assessment validity and reliability and are accepted within the field. There is an entire group of professionals and decades of research and study that support what I have stated regarding test validity.

And let me state again that test validity is not the issue here. If the test was flawed, then fine, give them another test, throw out all the results, give the test-makers a good spanking, whatever makes you happy. It still does not put you in a position to say anything about the test. You have no information or expertise in the area it covers. That also does not mean that the city acted correctly in this situation. Maybe they would have if they had actually been worried about the test, but they weren't, they were worried about superficial appearances.

 

[lsfoster]

Agreed. This has become a game of "ask Jillio to substantiate her points" and then when she does substantiate the points, it becomes a game of "let's see if we can argue the fact that she can substantiate her points." I have asked again and again, if what I claim regarding the validity and reliability of testing instruments is incorrect, and if what I say about the statistical analysis of the the test scores is incorrect, to please offer their own statistical analysis and facts regarding testing and assessment to refute it. To date, no one has been able to do that. Instead, they simply continue to argue absurd points in an attempt to disquise the fact that they cannot provide such.

You still don't get it, that's ok, I can say it again. It's not about anything you just said, it's about the fact that the validity of the test is not the issue and you refuse to drop it. Additionally your "analysis" is meaningless since you have extremely limited data and information about the case. We are not arguing absurd points, we are trying to have a discussion about the actual topic, which you continue to ignore.

It is really a shame that these people are not teaching at a graduate level....they seem to think they know so much more than those who do, as well as those that deal with testing and assesment issues as a part of their profession.:roll: And they should be teaching law school courses as well, Byrdie, because they seem to think they are able to interpret the legal ramifications and what proof needs to be provided regarding the test scores in order to convince not one, not two, but three courts of law that the dismissing of scores was appropriate action under the law based on the test that was used. And they are able to determine all of that without ever looking at a precedent. It is truly amazing, I tell you.

And you seem to think you know more than anyone on the entire planet. All I've said is that none of us has the information required to say anything definitive about this case, you're the one who refuses to admit that. Don't try to blame everyone else for "acting superior" by asking you to please understand that you don't have all the answers to this discussion.

 

[Daredevel7]

Still missing the point. If the test actually tested for this person's "people skills" then disparity in scores based on race would not be an issue. You are ignoring the fact that the professionals cited problems with the weight in items that compromised both content and construct validity.

Is it possible to ever have a VALID test given to a population of 25% blacks and none of the blacks made it to the top 25%?

Honestly, I personally think the test is crappy. I can tell by just looking at the scores of the oral vs written in the link I gave. However, I am not sure if you were so sure that the test is invalid JUST because of the disparity in scores or because it has already gone to court twice plus the professionals already looked at it. I don't think it's right to throw away test results just because it doesn't give a distribution that you'd like, especially in a world where people are so afraid of lawsuits. I just don't think that a disparity among race alone is EVIDENT enough to warrant an automatic dismission of test scores. Delay promotions and warrant an investigation? Yes. Dismission? No, especially when a "normal distribution" would only need 2-3 black people to be promoted.

 

[jillio]

I haven't ignored it. I've said many times that if the city felt the test was invalid they should have administered another one. The problem is that the city didn't throw out the results because they thought it was invalid, therefore no other test was administered.

They can't. The white firefighters filed a lawsuit. That means that they cannot issue another test until this case is decided. That, as well, has been mentioned many times. I don't know how you continue to miss it.
The city threw out the test results, as is stated in almost all of the articles provided in this thread, because they were worried about a lawsuit since no black firefighters were immediately eligible for promotion. It's not a hard concept to grasp. There was no question about the "test lacking in validity", they felt that it would look bad and they would probably get sued for discrimination, so they threw out the results.

Why weren't the black firefighters eligible for immediate promotion? That is the question. One that you are continuing to ignore.
I've already said that the argument that throwing out the test scores for everyone is no better than saying that banning inter-racial marriage is justified because it has the same effect on both races. I have already answered the questions you are aggressively asking, you just don't seem to have bothered to read my posts.

No, you simply have not answered them, perhaps because you don't understand them. I don't know at this point.
You have still not answered my question, what would happen in the reverse situation? How do you think people would respond if the city had thrown out all the test scores because only black firefighters were eligible for promotion? I answered yours (again), your turn.

That would depend on why only black firefighters were promoted. That is the whole point.

Difficulty with the discussion? Not at all. It would be easier if you could stick to the actual topic and stop insulting others and now yelling in your posts. And don't worry, I can live with your naivete also, since I'm the one that's in a scientific field that actually believes in real answers, and things aren't so "open to interpretation".

And what scientific field would that be? A student? I find it ironic indeed that you claim to be in a field when you are not practicing in that field. I also find it ironic that you even mention "real" answers when you do not appear to have the ability to distinquish "real" answers, or "real" questions.


And let me state again that test validity is not the issue here. If the test was flawed, then fine, give them another test, throw out all the results, give the test-makers a good spanking, whatever makes you happy. It still does not put you in a position to say anything about the test. You have no information or expertise in the area it covers. That also does not mean that the city acted correctly in this situation. Maybe they would have if they had actually been worried about the test, but they weren't, they were worried about superficial appearances.

Again, the test has already been determined to be flawed. And again, they cannot give them another test until this case has been decided. Talk to your white firefighters. They are the ones that are preventing logical resolution. And the city was concerned with far more than "superficial" appearances. You simply do not see it because of your superficial understanding.

 

[jillio]

Is it possible to ever have a VALID test given to a population of 25% blacks and none of the blacks made it to the top 25%?

Anything is possible, but it is not probable. The universe simply does not play dice with the laws of probability.

Honestly, I personally think the test is crappy. I can tell by just looking at the scores of the oral vs written in the link I gave. However, I am not sure if you were so sure that the test is invalid JUST because of the disparity in scores or because it has already gone to court twice plus the professionals already looked at it.

No, I am not saying that the test is invalid because of the disparity in scores. Exactly the opposite. I am saying the disparity is scores is the result of the test being invalid. And like you stated, it is evident in even looking at the raw scores. However, when you convert those scores to indicate relative position, it is confirmed.

I don't think it's right to throw away test results just because it doesn't give a distribution that you'd like, especially in a world where people are so afraid of lawsuits. I just don't think that a disparity among race alone is EVIDENT enough to warrant an automatic dismission of test scores. Delay promotions and warrant an investigation? Yes. Dismission? No, especially when a "normal distribution" would only need 2-3 black people to be promoted.

Well, promotions were delayed and an investigation insued. That is how the Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology became involved in examining the test. It has now been delayed for 5 years because of the lawsuit. How would you have remedied the problems unless you threw out all of the test scores? Just throw out the test scores of the minority participants? Or promote 3 of the lower scoring minority participants over the higher scoring white participants? That would open a whole "nother can of leagal worms. And, it is not just the black participants that showed disparity in scores. It was black and Hispanic...which is why I keep using the term "minority".

 

[Reba]

The city cannot issue a new instrument and resume the promotions until this has been decided in the courts. Since the white firefighter responsible for filing the lawsuit has decided to appeal the decisions of the lower courts that heard the case all the way to the Supreme Court, they will not be able to take another exam until that decision is handed down. This lawsuit is what has prevented alternative solutions to the problems found in the original testing instrument.

How often is the test normally given?

If the firefighters hadn't sued, how soon would they be able to take another test?

 

[Daredevel7]

I am saying the disparity is scores is the result of the test being invalid.

Can all tests be valid in terms of race only? What if the culture bias affects the person too much and there is no way to take it out from the test?

 

[jillio]

How often is the test normally given?

If the firefighters hadn't sued, how soon would they be able to take another test?

I am assuming that as soon as another testing instrument had been designed and validated.

I have no idea how often the test for promotions is given. This, however, was the first time that this particular test had been used.