Reasonable accomodation?

[Daredevel7]

No we can't. It is not the AD way to agree on anything!

What about agreeing that black is different from white?

Actually, some people may disagree on that, too!!!!

 

[Daredevel7]

did you know that deaf people can read each other's writing in deaf style (I'm assuming you mean ASL style)

They even have textbook in ASL

They DO? I did not know that.....

 

[AlleyCat]

did you know that deaf people can read each other's writing in deaf style (I'm assuming you mean ASL style)

They even have textbook in ASL

Actually, I can't. Where are you assuming that?

 

[Jiro]

did you know that deaf people can read each other's writing in deaf style (I'm assuming you mean ASL style)

They even have textbook in ASL

I have hard time reading "deaf" English if it's in strong ASL.

 

[Bottesini]

did you know that deaf people can read each other's writing in deaf style (I'm assuming you mean ASL style)

They even have textbook in ASL

I can't. And my receptive skills when watching signers are not that bad.

It's way different written out.

 

[jillio]

I have seen this evidence myself, but for young kids. Have you seen evidence for those who are 18 and older? I won't ask you to show me, just want to know if it's out there.

If they can perform academically on par with their hearing peers as a child, they aren't going to loose that ability...unless they suffer a brain injury or a stroke or something that interferes with cognitive function.

 

[A]

I just hear that some deaf can read each other style.. I can't. my sister was friends with this guy (older guy btw) who wrote that way. I couldn't read it, and my sister say "there's something horribly wrong with his school" But she could read it because she knew ASL even though she grew up oralism. And he had lots of friends who could read and respond to that type of writing (don't forget the tty days too). He was using the internet and this was way before VRS was popular, I think.

And a parent complained that her son have to have textbook in ASL. I don't know if it is written or not. but for someone to use the term "textbook" I assume written.

 

[Tousi]

I have seen this evidence myself, but for young kids. Have you seen evidence for those who are 18 and older? I won't ask you to show me, just want to know if it's out there.

I think it will be a mixed bag; bilingualism, true bilingualism has been a hard nut to crack on two fronts: Acceptance by those in control at State capitals and the dearth of individuals truly skilled in both English and ASL.

 

[TWA]

Jobs where writing is essential doesn't count, I've already covered that. And we already covered that deaf people will improve (although it is very easy to backslide because we can't hear). They had a hard time teaching me because I do speak and rely on speechreading only (no sign language whatsoever)... so limit of language foundation can hurt your writing even if you did improve, the thought process is just different. This girl who can't speak, I'm assuming that she already have a language foundation that help her learn within three years.

Okay, first off, I'm sorry I didn't take the time to scrutinize every post in here closely. Forgive me for not paying close attention just to YOU only. I was replying to the question posed by the OP.

Also, I am well aware of the issues surrounding L1 and L2 acquisition, but thanks anyway. As for your question about my student: actually, I personally believe, but cannot know for sure, that she did not have a strong grounding in either English or SEE/ASL by the time she passed the critical period for language acquisition. She was mainstreamed until 8th grade and experienced the paradox of inclusion. In high school, she switched to a deaf school which placed very little emphasis on reading and writing (she received As in her English classes despite writing at or below 4th grade level), which gave her a false sense of security about her writing ability. The reason she has improved so much in such a short amount of time is because she is a rare student that genuinely cares about her education and improving her intellectual capacity. She also has very good teachers who believe in her. She is certainly intelligent, but not off the charts. She will hand me papers two and three weeks before they are due so that she can get them back with my feedback and make changes until they are polished and exceptional. The key is that she retains the information and lessons from this act of revising. The vast majority of my students (hearing) hand in work they wrote the night before and never look at it again. Writing is a practice, not a static skill; it is something you must work at to improve and develop. Few people understand this, deaf or hearing. It is certainly an uphill battle to improve your writing if you didn't have a strong L1 (English or ASL), but it is not impossible.

 

[A]

Ok, I see, I was in the mainstream too, and I believe I was in the inclusive education setting. k-12th.
So she had to learn ASL in her deaf school? I hear that learning ASL actually help some deaf people who struggle mainstream write better.

 

[TWA]

Ok, I see, I was in the mainstream too, and I believe I was in the inclusive education setting. k-12th.
So she had to learn ASL in her deaf school? I hear that learning ASL actually help some deaf people who struggle mainstream write better.

The paradox of inclusion actually refers to how deaf/hoh students who are placed in a mainstream education setting experience more isolation and feelings of inferiority as a result of being "included" in the mainstream environment.

Yes, my student learned ASL at the deaf school. Before that, she was oral and used SEE. At the deaf school, ASL was heavily emphasized, whereas English was not. The result is that she has grammatical issues with both her English and her ASL. The real reason she has learned to be a better writer is because of her commitment and desire to improving.

 

[Daredevel7]

I just realized something. One thing that has been said several times in this thread is "do deaf people deserve to be judged if the educational system has failed them?". Basically asking they have a right to be accomodated in this way (allow deaf style writing) due to educational conditions out of their control. Wouldn't that also apply to hearing people? I'm sure the education fails several kids, especially in bad areas. Do they (as adults) have a right to be accommodated for their lower education? They don't do the deaf style writing but more likely to write "ghetto" or something. What do you think? Same concept or it's like comparing apples to oranges?

 

[A]

They can hear. But there are students with Learning Disability, and they also go to Vocational Rehab as well. My brother does.


WriteAlex, that type of schooling was basically the same thing I talking about. Included but yet it is really the wrong approach (and yes isolation and feeling inferior-- like I wrote in another thread, I've compared my writing to others and they write a whole lot better... They know how to use their past tense and their "s" properly, or how to write the sentence structure better)

I know the girl work hard. I just hear that after learning ASL for quite some times actually help you with your writing. What if she never learned ASL, would learning to write better take longer time? (or SEE, I never learned SEE either)

 

[Daredevel7]

They can hear. But there are students with Learning Disability, and they also go to Vocational Rehab as well. My brother does.

Are you implying that the simple fact they are deaf affects their writing ability? Forget deaf schools, Oralism, asl etc. It seems like, for you, this comparison does not apply just because they can hear while the others can't.

I agree that people with learning disabilities CAN have their writing ability affected because of the way their brain works. However, to me, writing is visual and writing abilities should not be affected by simply their hearing loss.

 

[Jiro]

Are you implying that the simple fact they are deaf affects their writing ability? Forget deaf schools, Oralism, asl etc. It seems like this comparison does not apply just because they can hear while the others can't.

I agree that people with learning disabilities CAN have their writing ability affected because of the way their brain works. However, to me, writing is visual and writing abilities should not be affected by simply their hearing loss.

I would agree that being deaf does affect the writing ability because of linguistic difference between hearie and deafie (assuming that both is grammatically correct). It's weird yet interesting, right?

example - a language spoken by native and by foreigner. Definitely a linguistic difference there.

 

[shel90]

Are you implying that the simple fact they are deaf affects their writing ability? Forget deaf schools, Oralism, asl etc. It seems like, for you, this comparison does not apply just because they can hear while the others can't.

I agree that people with learning disabilities CAN have their writing ability affected because of the way their brain works. However, to me, writing is visual and writing abilities should not be affected by simply their hearing loss.

Remember that deaf people cant hear the language like hearing people do.

 

[TWA]

I know the girl work hard. I just hear that after learning ASL for quite some times actually help you with your writing. What if she never learned ASL, would learning to write better take longer time? (or SEE, I never learned SEE either)

Hard question to know the answer to, and I'm not really in a position to answer it. Based on her writing level before getting to college, I would say no, it didn't, but then again it could be a (small) factor in why she has improved so quickly. I will ask her what she thinks next time I see her.

 

[Daredevel7]

Linguistic?

That affects writing abilities?

Aren't you thinking of dialects? Accents? Grammar? Syntax?

I think you are comparing an ASL user with an English user. That would apply due to foreign language.

However, I'm talking about simply being able to read/write and recognize sentence structures. Etc.

 

[A]

deaf people hear differently than hearing people. And they are visual people so their thought proccess is different from hearing. Never mind ASL. ASL is just a language that help them express themselves visually. So it take more than just "reading and writing" for them to decode English language. and I don't think it matters if they know ASL or not. Remember the myth of 4th grade does not apply to just ASL deaf, but for all type of deaf people. This is why the push of CI

 

[shel90]

Linguistic?

That affects writing abilities?

Aren't you thinking of dialects? Accents? Grammar? Syntax?

I think you are comparing an ASL user with an English user. That would apply due to foreign language.

However, I'm talking about simply being able to read/write and recognize sentence structures. Etc.

I have noticed that for some deaf people they can read English much much better than they can write it. I think most deaf people can write basic English sentences but for some, when it comes to taking it on another notch, they struggle.

I hope I make sense.