Reasonable accomodation?

jillio said:
I see your point. But I have specifically requested this accommodation for both the workplace and for the educational arena. Not because I pity deaf people and think this is the best they can do, but because society has limited what they have been given the opportunity to learn, and because cultural differences are often reflected in the way things are phrased. We tend to think that difference in phrasing equals lack of understanding or incompetence when that is not the case. I use this accommodation to allow for the deaf clients I have to work to their capabilities and not be restricted to under employment based on ineffective criteria for judging competence.
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You probably know typesetting for newspapers used to be a common deaf employment because if is very loud?

Not that many years ago there were quite a lot of literate deaf people.

And this is way after Milan as these are people I knew in childhood.

Low expectations are a real problem in my view.
 
Bottesini said:
You probably know typesetting for newspapers used to be a common deaf employment because if is very loud?

Not that many years ago there were quite a lot of literate deaf people.

And this is way after Milan as these are people I knew in childhood.

Low expectations are a real problem in my view.
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Yes, I do know that. However, these accomodations are not related to low expectations.
 
jillio said:
Yes, I do know that. However, these accomodations are not related to low expectations.
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Well they are because the people who can't write were shortchanged and let to go by by their schools and their parents.

My parents as I know you know, spent many hours with me working on things I did not pick up in school.
 
Bottesini said:
Well they are because the people who can't write were shortchanged and let to go by by their schools and their parents.

My parents as I know you know, spent many hours with me working on things I did not pick up in school.
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Granted, they were short changed by the educational system, but that is because of problems with the ed system and failure of those in the child's life to pick up the dropped ball. More to do with incorrect teaching methods being used in the mainstream.

But where I am referring to the employment arena, the accomodation is actually in place to allow deaf employees to function optimally without their capabilities being judged as inferior based on cultural differences in writing.
 
of course. When you have doctors telling parents, professional telling teachers that the highest reading and writing level is 4th grade....low expectation come with that. We should change the education system, but we should not leave victims of poor education system behind. They need help somehow.
 
A said:
of course. When you have doctors telling parents, professional telling teachers that the highest reading and writing level is 4th grade....low expectation come with that. We should change the education system, but we should not leave victims of poor education system behind. They need help somehow.
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Exactly. And when applied to the workforce, an accomodation such as this is designed not to continue to punish the deaf individual for the failings of the educational system.
 
A said:
of course. When you have doctors telling parents, professional telling teachers that the highest reading and writing level is 4th grade....low expectation come with that. We should change the education system, but we should not leave victims of poor education system behind. They need help somehow.
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Parents should be more proactive and shouldn't be stupid enough to accept low expectations.
 
A said:
of course. When you have doctors telling parents, professional telling teachers that the highest reading and writing level is 4th grade....low expectation come with that. We should change the education system, but we should not leave victims of poor education system behind. They need help somehow.
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I know.. this makes me so mad.. They told my mom that I wouldn't make it beyond 4th grade and suggested that I go to the state deaf school because I won't be able to "make it" anywhere else.

This is not fair to both the deaf child (limited options) and the deaf schools (low expectations).

I understand that there are people who are already a result of poor education. But that doesn't mean we can keep treating them as thus. If we allow them to function as they always have, while not giving them a chance to be able to better or work better with others, we are no better than the poor education system.

"He's deaf. Let's just give him a chance. He's not making much anyway."
vs
"His English is not very good but he does seem to have good ideas. Why don't we try to use an interpreter or offer him one of those classes given by vocational rehab?"

Which is better in the long run?
 
Daredevel7 said:
I know.. this makes me so mad.. They told my mom that I wouldn't make it beyond 4th grade and suggested that I go to the state deaf school because I won't be able to "make it" anywhere else.

This is not fair to both the deaf child (limited options) and the deaf schools (low expectations).

I understand that there are people who are already a result of poor education. But that doesn't mean we can keep treating them as thus. If we allow them to function as they always have, while not giving them a chance to be able to better or work better with others, we are no better than the poor education system.

"He's deaf. Let's just give him a chance. He's not making much anyway."
vs
"His English is not very good but he does seem to have good ideas. Why don't we try to use an interpreter or offer him one of those classes given by vocational rehab?"

Which is better in the long run?
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Why not use an interpreter and one of those classes offered by voc rehab? After all, he will need to communicate as he is learning.
 
well, in my case, I never went to deaf school or any deaf system. Just Special Education system that is mainly suited for hearing public school children. Usually, Special Education class have very low expectation but they do help you.
 
A said:
well, in my case, I never went to deaf school or any deaf system. Just Special Education system that is mainly suited for hearing public school children. Usually, Special Education class have very low expectation.
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**nodding** And you should not be penalized in the workforce when you are able to do a job well just because the educational system failed you in some areas.
 
Bottesini said:
Parents should be more proactive and shouldn't be stupid enough to accept low expectations.
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Even though my mother had her hands full (she had two oral only deaf kids to raise plus three other kids), She did not want me in special education English class at all. the school system told her that she had to if she wanted me to go to public school. She didn't have to do this with my older sister, the school system changed on us in the 80s. I don't what it was, but it's like the time of special education era or something. My older sister did very well. My mother too was trying to fight against the myth of 4th grade level writing.

I do remember speech therapy at my local speech and hearing before entering preschool. It could be AVT, but anyway, it just goes to show that my mother didn't have low expectation. But the school on the other hand did.
 
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They told my mom that I wouldn't make it beyond 4th grade and suggested that I go to the state deaf school because I won't be able to "make it" anywhere else.
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It is sometimes true in some cases when parents don't provide help for the deaf child. And it is also true when the child is put in a public school and don't receive any deaf service AND is in mainstreamed special education instead. I graduated with a 6th-8th grade level writing... could be lower and if I was deaf-er than I am (I'm in the 90db level area on both ear) and didn't recieve much benefit from my hearing aids.

I don't like the doctor's attitude toward the deaf school that lead your parents to think deaf school = low expectation. Horrible. I'm guessing you went to an Oral school or some kind of deaf program. If your mother didn't, then she took a risk of putting you in 4th grade level. Some parents get defensive with their child and want to prove the doctor wrong by not sending their child to a deaf school. sometimes that is the wrong approach. Deaf school is deaf school rather it is ASL, ORAL, TC... for me, I didn't have any of that.
 
These accommodations make sense if the job does not require writing skills. However, if the job does require reading and writing skills, do you think these accommodations should still apply?
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Reasonable accommodations aren't meant to "transform a job" (the example re journalism etc) rather there meant to minimize the barriers that may make someone who is otherwise qualified for the position , unable to take the job.

Some examples might be -

Someone who does "manual labour" such as a shipper/receiver, dishwasher, painter, construction person etc. They are strong enough and physically and mentally able to do the job (which requires copying of data but not a lot of "writing")...because they are Hoh/Deaf they may need accommodations such as a pager that vibrates (if they're being called/paged to a specific area), staff that knows some basic signs (stop, days of the week, how to tell time in ASL etc) and is willing to communicate via pen&paper etc.

A job that would NOT fall under "reasonable accommodations" for someone who's deaf/severe HOH would be a job like a telephone receptionist, call centre caller, or other job that requires a lot of phoning or communicating with customers in a noisy environment (orally) face to face - because it's is NOT reasonably to have an employer take all their called through a relay operator etc.


Another example would be adjusting a desk/office/ computer set up and washrooms to accommodate someone in a wheelchair or who uses a walker extra ... provided that they are other than the mobility issues - fully able to do that job.
 
yes, it is not reasonable for VRS to take call center calls... because basically they are doing the job for them (another word, the company would just hire the VRS relay to work for them instead)... But I'm sure there are deaf who would love to work in a call center that work with deaf customers only.
 
A said:
I don't like the doctor's attitude toward the deaf school that lead your parents to think deaf school = low expectation. Horrible. I'm guessing you went to an Oral school or some kind of deaf program. If your mother didn't, then she took a risk of putting you in 4th grade level. Some parents get defensive with their child and want to prove the doctor wrong by not sending their child to a deaf school. sometimes that is the wrong approach. Deaf school is deaf school rather it is ASL, ORAL, TC... for me, I didn't have any of that.
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Off topic, but just wanted to clarify:
I went to a hearing private school. My mom thought it was best for me to go to a private school for smaller classes and more attention from the teachers. Perhaps it was a risk. But I think it turned out for the best for me. Life is a risk. :)

Anyway, I think we disagree on this issue. I think allowing their "deaf style" writing to continue when it is fundamental to the job (and while not using other methods) is unacceptable. I do agree with jillio about allowing time for learning and development, but while using an interpreter, not deaf style writing which can introduce too many misunderstandings and confusion.
 
I know one little girl with CI who went to my son's private school (prep). Apparently her parents decided not to take her there anymore. I guess the classroom is getting too crowded. Population is getting crowded...but just about every private school (Christians and prep) around here is getting bigger. I think these days, it is very hard to find a small classroom but the deaf classes are getting smaller because they want more deaf children to assimilate in the hearing population.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Anyway, I think we disagree on this issue. I think allowing their "deaf style" writing to continue when it is fundamental to the job (and while not using other methods) is unacceptable. I do agree with jillio about allowing time for learning and development, but while using an interpreter, not deaf style writing which can introduce too many misunderstandings and confusion.
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Which is why I made another thread about this http://www.alldeaf.com/deaf-education/79228-asle.html <---- I just wonder if it works? I think many of us forgotten the basic grammar rules, especially deaf people because they missed out. It's good to refreshen their memory. I got mine refreshened when going over our son's schoolwork.. I was learning from it, and thought, wow, I don't remember being taught this.
 
jillio said:
**nodding** And you should not be penalized in the workforce when you are able to do a job well just because the educational system failed you in some areas.
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Here's my question, what happens if they can't do the job because they were failed by the education system? If they aren't literate enough to keep up, etc? What happens to them?
 
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