Question

[jillio]

If the intent of any assistive devise is to improve sound perception, and an HA, through amplification, allows a deaf/hoh individual to perceive sounds in a decible and frequency that is not possible without HA, han't sound perception been improved, no matter the route the deivise takes?

More perception in previously not perceived areas would be considered improvement, would it not?

 

[highlands]

Yes, it is improvement . As a digital and bilateral hearing aids user, I can hear such a lot of sounds with help of my hearing aids.. and this is an improvement .. you are right about this.

the above is the front side of the story ,though.. Let's see the back side of the story.

A hearing aid improves perception via amplifying sounds to the user's residual hearing range but the user's residual hearing is damaged and it causes to the user to hear distorted sounds.. it is like magnifying a blury photo to larger size.. just like we do in graphics software.. we magnify a picture but this causes distortion and prevents a clear perception..

Example

( represents the user's small residual hearing )

and we resize the image to bigger... the result is

( represent a hearing aid amplification )

and the real picture is

( represents normal hearing )

 

[Tousi]

I say, yes, of course it is! Who would think otherwise? *wink*

 

[Chase]

I like Highlands's apt visual analogy. I hope I'm not veering off topic when I want to qualify "improvement."

More noise, such as cafeteria clatter elevated over speech, wasn't really improvement to me when I wore hearing aids. The same kind of thing happened when I was implanted. In both cases, amplified sound was as detrimental as it was beneficial, depending on the circumstances.

Not much help in the discussion, am I?

 

[neecy]

What a fantastic example, Highlands!!!

 

[Boult]

Oh that's interesting you still want to mislead everyone that Ha or CI are assistive listening devices when they are not!
I guess you would listen to NAD
Cochlear Implants - National Association of the Deaf
Assistive Listening Devices - National Association of the Deaf

other sites
assistivetech.net AT Report - Assistive Listening Devices
BHI: Hearing Solutions - Assistive Listening Devices

If you go to store that sells ALD would you find HA or CI there? NO!
https://www.audiolinks.com/assistivelisteningdevices.shtml

and the google results "assistive listening device ADA" tells me that ALD are devices designed to help HA or CI users such as FM Systems or FM Loops or Telecoils.
assistive listening device ADA - Google Search

NOW You should correct yourself!


now...

HA = ampiflied sounds = improved perception? nah... just louder.
CI = Hearing sensations = improved perception? yes clearer

How a Cochlear Implant Differs from a Hearing Aid - Cochlear Implant Basic Information - Cochlear Implant Center - Boys Town National Research Hospital
Cochlear Implants

Static: The New Hearing Aid
BionicEar.com - Harmony Cochlear Implant by Advanced Bionics
Phonak hearing systems - Audiogram

Now remember a severe to profound deaf person's audiogram would show a slope like a ski slop either on left side or right side.
Let's say From 70dBL to 120dBL from 250 hz to 4k hz
then one put on HA and new auidogram shows like this maybe
from 30-50dBL to 80-100dBL (depending on how mind detect the sounds)

while CI
before CI 70dbBL to 120dBL
after CI in the area across the board between 20dBL and 40dBL

you see they don't get same perception.

 

[jillio]

Yes, it is improvement . As a digital and bilateral hearing aids user, I can hear such a lot of sounds with help of my hearing aids.. and this is an improvement .. you are right about this.

the above is the front side of the story ,though.. Let's see the back side of the story.

A hearing aid improves perception via amplifying sounds to the user's residual hearing range but the user's residual hearing is damaged and it causes to the user to hear distorted sounds.. it is like magnifying a blury photo to larger size.. just like we do in graphics software.. we magnify a picture but this causes distortion and prevents a clear perception..

Example

( represents the user's small residual hearing )

and we resize the image to bigger... the result is

( represent a hearing aid amplification )

and the real picture is

( represents normal hearing )

Exactly. The variance is degree, but both offer improvement, which is the intended goal.

 

[jillio]

I like Highlands's apt visual analogy. I hope I'm not veering off topic when I want to qualify "improvement."

More noise, such as cafeteria clatter elevated over speech, wasn't really improvement to me when I wore hearing aids. The same kind of thing happened when I was implanted. In both cases, amplified sound was as detrimental as it was beneficial, depending on the circumstances.

Not much help in the discussion, am I?

Quite a bit of help, actually, as you have confirmed that the intent is improvement, and the variance is in degree.

 

[highlands]

off topic,

Chase, you forgot we are in a therapy session

 

[jillio]

Oh that's interesting you still want to mislead everyone that Ha or CI are assistive listening devices when they are not!
I guess you would listen to NAD
Cochlear Implants - National Association of the Deaf
Assistive Listening Devices - National Association of the Deaf

other sites
assistivetech.net AT Report - Assistive Listening Devices
BHI: Hearing Solutions - Assistive Listening Devices

If you go to store that sells ALD would you find HA or CI there? NO!
https://www.audiolinks.com/assistivelisteningdevices.shtml

and the google results "assistive listening device ADA" tells me that ALD are devices designed to help HA or CI users such as FM Systems or FM Loops or Telecoils.
assistive listening device ADA - Google Search

NOW You should correct yourself!


now...

HA = ampiflied sounds = improved perception? nah... just louder.
CI = Hearing sensations = improved perception? yes clearer

How a Cochlear Implant Differs from a Hearing Aid - Cochlear Implant Basic Information - Cochlear Implant Center - Boys Town National Research Hospital
Cochlear Implants

Static: The New Hearing Aid
BionicEar.com - Harmony Cochlear Implant by Advanced Bionics
Phonak hearing systems - Audiogram

Now remember a severe to profound deaf person's audiogram would show a slope like a ski slop either on left side or right side.
Let's say From 70dBL to 120dBL from 250 hz to 4k hz
then one put on HA and new auidogram shows like this maybe
from 30-50dBL to 80-100dBL (depending on how mind detect the sounds)

while CI
before CI 70dbBL to 120dBL
after CI in the area across the board between 20dBL and 40dBL

you see they don't get same perception.

Not misleading at all. Do they or do they not assist the deaf individual in obtaining sound perception that is not otherwise available to them without the devise? The answer, quite obviously, is "yes". Therefore, they can be described accurately as assistive devises. You are evidently confusing a title (hence, capitalization) with a description (lower case).

And thank you for confirming my original point. The variance is in degree. I knew you'd get it sooner or later.

 

[Boult]

still wrong jillio...

 

[highlands]

Exactly. The variance is degree, but both offer improvement, which is the intended goal.

Yes , you are right.. I do get a lot of benefit from my hearing aids .. such as listening to music, chirping birds.. As for the intended goal, some people may find it efficent to use a hearing aid and some others prefer better ways like CI.. and some people rather go different routes including sign language.. it all depends on our expectations from life

 

[Raykat]

If the intent of any assistive devise is to improve sound perception, and an HA, through amplification, allows a deaf/hoh individual to perceive sounds in a decible and frequency that is not possible without HA, han't sound perception been improved, no matter the route the deivise takes?

More perception in previously not perceived areas would be considered improvement, would it not?

I'm not sure what the purpose of this question is, however one could argue that even an old fashioned horn in the ear would be an assistive device, whether it provides clarity is another matter.

As a very new implantee I can tell you from my point of view, and without multi research papers etc to refer to, yes a h/a provides sound perception in decible and frequency, which could be called an improvement, however clarity is another matter altogether. Huge amounts of amplification does not equate with correct sound perception, tho for me it did provide a "better than nothing" option.

Give me a few more weeks and I will tell you the difference in sound perception, clarity etc etc etc that my new assistive device provide for me.

 

[jillio]

still wrong jillio...

You need to explain exactly how I am wrong, as I have done for you in explaining how you are wrong. Simply saying "You're wrong" is hardly sufficient.

 

[jillio]

off topic,

Chase, you forgot we are in a therapy session

Nope, not a therapy session...an educational session on clarification and definition.

 

[shel90]

I would think so..that the CI improves sound perception. What is the big deal here with everyone arguing? I am lost. It makes sense that a CI is a listening or hearing device/aid. Why do some people take offensive to that? It is just a generic definition.

 

[highlands]

Nope, not a therapy session...an educational session on clarification and definition.

I was joking jillio .. of course, this isn't a therapy.. only sharing in a friendly way

 

[jag]

I really don't know why you insist on nitpicking about what the Ha and Ci do. Yes they both help one hear. (perceive sound)

The results with both devices will vary from person to person. (even from ear to ear) I don't believe anyone has ever denied that.

Successful outcomes with both are a matter of perception, which is very individual. And we have never said differently.

All we have said is the devices do not work in the same way to deliver that sound perception. Thus one gives a much clearer sound. Yes results will vary and length of time without access to sound and mode of communication while not hearing sound will probably have impact on the results. And we have never said that results will not vary.

 

[deafdyke]

Not misleading at all. Do they or do they not assist the deaf individual in obtaining sound perception that is not otherwise available to them without the devise? The answer, quite obviously, is "yes". Therefore, they can be described accurately as assistive devises. You are evidently confusing a title (hence, capitalization) with a description (lower case).

Yes, CI and HA aren't part of the ALD "family" (ie FM, soundfield etc) BUT they do assit in listening.
Exactly like they way glasses for a legally blind person aren't part of the "miscellous" gadgets that can help improve sight issues, but they can also be classifed as an assistive device.

 

[jillio]

I really don't know why you insist on nitpicking about what the Ha and Ci do. Yes they both help one hear. (perceive sound)

The results with both devices will vary from person to person. (even from ear to ear) I don't believe anyone has ever denied that.

Successful outcomes with both are a matter of perception, which is very individual. And we have never said differently.

All we have said is the devices do not work in the same way to deliver that sound perception. Thus one gives a much clearer sound. Yes results will vary and length of time without access to sound and mode of communication while not hearing sound will probably have impact on the results. And we have never said that results will not vary.

Ask Boult. That's where the argument started.