Question

I just remembered! My brother left his big box of all his grad materials in my basement (he comes here in MD during the summer for grad school)..I just found something..lemme read thru the journals.
 
Yea, many hearing people are teaching their hearing babies sign so why not the same for deaf children?
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but hearing babies do not rely on sign once they are able to speak.

An issue I have had with learning ASL only has been the lack of english skills both in writing, reading, and speaking. people who were raised in a more oral environment tend to have better reading and writing skills which are essential in life. While Oral communication is an invaluable skill.. it is second to reading and writing skills. Once you have the ability to read.. you can learn anything!

ASL has no real shared syntax with English.. It is not an ideal base for a leap to english although I would not go so far as to assume that it hiders either. This is where ESE and CS can really shine.. It makes a great bridge between signed language and spoken/written english.

I am under to ideal that a deaf child is a child none the less.. I have never let my hearing loss define me.. I would never let it define my child either..
 
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Wilbur, R.B. (2000). The Use of ASL to Support the Development of English and Literacy. Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education, 5(1), 81-104[/

I am holding the book..my scanner is not hooked up yet but I doubt I can scan the whole article...any suggestions on how to put it up here?
 
Jasper said:
but hearing babies do not rely on sign once they are able to speak.

An issue I have had with learning ASL only has been the lack of english skills both in writing, reading, and speaking. people who were raised in a more oral environment tend to have better reading and writing skills which are essential in life. While Oral communication is an invaluable skill.. it is second to reading and writing skills. Once you have the ability to read.. you can learn anything!

ASL has no real shared syntax with English.. It is not an ideal base for a leap to english although I would not go so far as to assume that it hiders either. This is where ESE and CS can really shine.. It makes a great bridge between signed language and spoken/written english.

I am under to ideal that a deaf child is a child none the less.. I have never let my hearing loss define me.. I would never let it define my child either..
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Then how are deaf children of deaf parents able to achieve high literacy skills in English?
 
Jasper said:
ASL has no real shared syntax with English.. It is not an ideal base for a leap to english although I would not go so far as to assume that it hiders either. This is where ESE and CS can really shine.. It makes a great bridge between signed language and spoken/written english.
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The problem I have with ESE is it's a manual substitute for English, which of course is the point, but ASL is a full-fledged language on its own, giving a child who learns ASL an understanding of rules and structure before moving onto English, instead of just a manual substitute for another language.
 
melabrock said:
The problem I have with ESE is it's a manual substitute for English, which of course is the point, but ASL is a full-fledged language on its own, giving a child who learns ASL an understanding of rules and structure before moving onto English, instead of just a manual substitute for another language.
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Right..I prefer the child to be exposed to a true language instead of a manual substitute for English during the first 5 years of language development. I am sure CS can be a good tool for learning how to read and write. I have tried SEE...too tedious and the kids lose interest fast..Sim-Com causes both languages to be too confusing for the kids. Rather would keep ASL and English separate. That's my opinion based on what I have seen and have experienced.
 
Then how are deaf children of deaf parents able to achieve high literacy skills in English?
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I am not really sure how you would like me to answer this question.. but I will try..

People learn a language through study and use.. another way people learn is though mimicry.. a child learns their first words by their parents talking.. the child tries to mimic his/her parents in an attempt to communicate. This works not only with oral skills.. but also writing AND reading skills as well. You can also see this will to communicate at a very early age when teaching the child signs..as they are able to link a specific sign to its meaning/function that the parents have enforced through repetitive action.

But.. I think that it really comes down to the determination of the child.. does the child want to read at better than a 4th grade education when they become an adult? Do they want to be able to properly write their feelings and ideas in a fashion equivalent to their age group? These are questions best left up to the child..

But this determination is instilled in the children by their parents AND teachers!
 
The problem I have with ESE is it's a manual substitute for English, which of course is the point, but ASL is a full-fledged language on its own, giving a child who learns ASL an understanding of rules and structure before moving onto English, instead of just a manual substitute for another language.
Click to expand...

Yes, but isnt the goal what we have been discussing over the last few posts been the step from a signed language to English? As I stated earlier ASL uses none of the usual Syntax that english uses.. ESE is a language.. its english! just a signed form.. think of it as just another method like speaking, writing, or reading.

Alot of people that I know use ASL as their primary language transfer alot of this syntax into english on accident.. It is a common mistake of misused syntax in ANY language by non-native speakers.

Right..I prefer the child to be exposed to a true language instead of a manual substitute for English during the first 5 years of language development.
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ESE IS a true language.. It's English.
 
Jasper said:
I am not really sure how you would like me to answer this question.. but I will try..

People learn a language through study and use.. another way people learn is though mimicry.. a child learns their first words by their parents talking.. the child tries to mimic his/her parents in an attempt to communicate. This works not only with oral skills.. but also writing AND reading skills as well. You can also see this will to communicate at a very early age when teaching the child signs..as they are able to link a specific sign to its meaning/function that the parents have enforced through repetitive action.

But.. I think that it really comes down to the determination of the child.. does the child want to read at better than a 4th grade education when they become an adult? Do they want to be able to properly write their feelings and ideas in a fashion equivalent to their age group? These are questions best left up to the child..

But this determination is instilled in the children by their parents AND teachers!
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and as a teacher I am determined that all deaf children have FULL access to language so that's why I believe in using the BiBi approach but many people disagree with me which is fine. My beliefs still stand.
 
Jasper said:
Yes, but isnt the goal what we have been discussing over the last few posts been the step from a signed language to English? As I stated earlier ASL uses none of the usual Syntax that english uses.. ESE is a language.. its english! just a signed form.. think of it as just another method like speaking, writing, or reading.

Alot of people that I know use ASL as their primary language transfer alot of this syntax into english on accident.. It is a common mistake of misused syntax in ANY language by non-native speakers.



ESE IS a true language.. It's English.
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ESE as in signed English like SEE?

Did u study linguistics or language acquistion?
 
Jasper said:
Yes, but isnt the goal what we have been discussing over the last few posts been the step from a signed language to English?
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Indeed, we have...I just don't see why it would truly be needed. In learning ASL as a native English speaker, I'm very glad that I didn't use ESE to learn ASL, because that would have confused me in learning ASL's grammar structure. Or rather, because I'm hearing, a spoken substitute for ASL. I'm already fluent in English, so I was able to understand that ASL and other languages have different structures and rules than my native language without a mediator language like ESE.

But hey, if ESE has truly helped individuals learn the structure of English better, then more power to 'em.
 
shel90 said:
Is ESE the same as SEE or a different system of making English visual?
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Shoot, now I'm not sure! Lemme check my notes...

From what I can see they are both MCE's...Manual Codes for English. Which is what I really meant to say... anyway! Not sure if they're the same method or not, though...
 
shel90 said:
u are more skilled than me in finding articles online :).I still do it in the old fashioned way.

Yea, that is it. It is one of the many he has but I thought it was more appropriate for what we are all discussing than the other articles he has .
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ok.. heres the link to the full PDF download. Geeze Shel, we gotta teach you how to use google. LOL...

The Use of ASL to Support the Development of English and Literacy -- Wilbur 5 (1): 81 -- The Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education
 
melabrock said:
The problem I have with ESE is it's a manual substitute for English, which of course is the point, but ASL is a full-fledged language on its own, giving a child who learns ASL an understanding of rules and structure before moving onto English, instead of just a manual substitute for another language.
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what's the benefit to using ASL to learn rules and structure as opposed to english. After all insn't english literacy the end goal in an educational setting?
 
ESE - exact signed english
SEE - sign exact english

they are the same.. just different ways of saying it..

what's the benefit to using ASL to learn rules and structure as opposed to english. After all insn't english literacy the end goal in an educational setting?
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Well.. lets deconstruct and look backwards from what is the main goal

Main goal being - Use and mastery of English (spoken, writing, reading)

How do you get from the "finish line" to the "starting line" Well there are many ways.. but in my opinion the most direct approach is going from English, to signed english, to mimicry in the form of the child's urges to communicate in ANY language. Which is the start of a child's language development

Using ASL as an alternative to ESE (or SEE) is like taking a scenic detour across the communicative landscape.. Its a nice town, yes.. but not along the main highway, and the roads back to the main highway towards English are not marked properly..
 
Jasper said:
Using ASL as an alternative to ESE (or SEE) is like taking a scenic detour across the communicative landscape.. Its a nice town, yes.. but not along the main highway, and the roads back to the main highway towards English are not marked properly..
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I don't know that anyone suggested using ASL as an alternative but rather a tool to teach literacy. Did you read this research and if so, what do you think of it?
 
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