Question

[jillio]

Got a question here. May seem silly, but the answer points to a simple fact that people seem to forget.

Who came up with the idea of mainstreamed education? Who invented the signing systems known as SEE, PSE, and CS. Who came up with the concept of oral education? Who invented CI? And not who, as in what was their name, but who as in what was their hearing status?

 

[Jasper]

are you actually wanting facts? or are you trying to point to something?

but the answer points to a simple fact that people seem to forget.

And not who, as in what was their name, but who as in what was their hearing status?

What does it matter if the inventors were deaf? Are you suggesting deaf people should shun these simply because another deaf individual did not invent them so obviously they are not in the best interests of the deaf?

Do you think it would be OK if hearing people would shun the works and ideas of; Ludwig von Beethoven.. ?.. How about having the hearing community take the Ms. America crown away from Ms. McCallum? Or even shrug off the wonderful ideas of V. Cerf (one of the inventors of DARPANET.. the beginning of the internet).. how about the works of Douglas Tilden?

.. I am not trying to start a flame war.. so I will not take this post any farther then it needs to go..

Oh, and BTW.. the inventor of CS (cued speech) Is Dr. Richard Orin Cornett.. Not only was he deaf but he also held a Vice President position at Gallaudet.

All of these ideas you seem to want to shun are great not only in the fact that the people who invented them wanted to solve a problem which they saw in the world. But they had the fortitude and courage to put their ideas into action.

While I do not totally disagree with you about the short-comings of any of these ideas.. I am not about to say they are bad just because they are not 100% successful.. That is the nature of ideas.

 

[rockdrummer]

Flippin the coin around. I like that.. Great points!!

 

[Jasper]

Oh, and BTW.. the inventor of CS (cued speech) Is Dr. Richard Orin Cornett.. Not only was he deaf but he also held a Vice President position at Gallaudet.

Well, this may not be true after all. I thought Dr. Cornett was either deaf or HOH but I can not find any information to that fact.. but at the same time I have not seen anywhere where he was not.. but.. until I can find one way or another.. I'll retract this statment

But, my point still stands!

 

[shel90]

Well, this may not be true after all. I thought Dr. Cornett was either deaf or HOH but I can not find any information to that fact.. but at the same time I have not seen anywhere where he was not.. but.. until I can find one way or another.. I'll retract this statment

But, my point still stands!

If I remember correctly, I think he was hearing but did work at Gallaudet.

AG Bell came up with the idea of making all deaf people oral so I assume he started the concept of oral deaf education as well?

 

[ismi]

If I remember correctly, I think he was hearing but did work at Gallaudet.

AG Bell came up with the idea of making all deaf people oral so I assume he started the concept of oral deaf education as well?

I believe oral education was fairly common in Germany around the time that Clerc came to the US.

 

[jillio]

are you actually wanting facts? or are you trying to point to something?





What does it matter if the inventors were deaf? Are you suggesting deaf people should shun these simply because another deaf individual did not invent them so obviously they are not in the best interests of the deaf?

Do you think it would be OK if hearing people would shun the works and ideas of; Ludwig von Beethoven.. ?.. How about having the hearing community take the Ms. America crown away from Ms. McCallum? Or even shrug off the wonderful ideas of V. Cerf (one of the inventors of DARPANET.. the beginning of the internet).. how about the works of Douglas Tilden?

.. I am not trying to start a flame war.. so I will not take this post any farther then it needs to go..

Oh, and BTW.. the inventor of CS (cued speech) Is Dr. Richard Orin Cornett.. Not only was he deaf but he also held a Vice President position at Gallaudet.

All of these ideas you seem to want to shun are great not only in the fact that the people who invented them wanted to solve a problem which they saw in the world. But they had the fortitude and courage to put their ideas into action.

While I do not totally disagree with you about the short-comings of any of these ideas.. I am not about to say they are bad just because they are not 100% successful.. That is the nature of ideas.

Not suggesting anything of the kind. You are jumping to many, many conclusions here. And, my point is, that these systems were developed by hearing people, and because of that, they were developed from the ethnocentric viewpoint of what the hearing think the deaf need. What about what the deaf think the deaf need?

A deafr Miss America, and a deaf composer do not impact upon the educational achievement of deaf children. Huge difference.

 

[jillio]

are you actually wanting facts? or are you trying to point to something?





What does it matter if the inventors were deaf? Are you suggesting deaf people should shun these simply because another deaf individual did not invent them so obviously they are not in the best interests of the deaf?

Do you think it would be OK if hearing people would shun the works and ideas of; Ludwig von Beethoven.. ?.. How about having the hearing community take the Ms. America crown away from Ms. McCallum? Or even shrug off the wonderful ideas of V. Cerf (one of the inventors of DARPANET.. the beginning of the internet).. how about the works of Douglas Tilden?

.. I am not trying to start a flame war.. so I will not take this post any farther then it needs to go..

Oh, and BTW.. the inventor of CS (cued speech) Is Dr. Richard Orin Cornett.. Not only was he deaf but he also held a Vice President position at Gallaudet.

All of these ideas you seem to want to shun are great not only in the fact that the people who invented them wanted to solve a problem which they saw in the world. But they had the fortitude and courage to put their ideas into action.

While I do not totally disagree with you about the short-comings of any of these ideas.. I am not about to say they are bad just because they are not 100% successful.. That is the nature of ideas.

Not suggesting anything of the kind. You are jumping to many, many conclusions here. And, my point is, that these systems were developed by hearing people, and because of that, they were developed from the ethnocentric viewpoint of what the hearing think the deaf need. What about what the deaf think the deaf need?

A deafr Miss America, and a deaf composer do not impact upon the educational achievement of deaf children. Huge difference. Nor did I say that any of these ideas should be shunned. Those are your words. I simply asked the question. And I will ask it again. If this is all supposed to be for the benefit of the deaf, why not deaf input regarding what is beneficial. What the hearing thinkthe deaf need, and what the deaf know they need are often diametrically opposed.

 

[jillio]

If I remember correctly, I think he was hearing but did work at Gallaudet.

AG Bell came up with the idea of making all deaf people oral so I assume he started the concept of oral deaf education as well?

Yes, Dr. Cornett was hearing, and he did work at Gally. And A.G. Bell not only supported oral education for all deaf people, but also supported the concept of soft eugenics by believing and attepting to put into law legislation that would prevent two deaf people from marrying to prevent any genetic causes of deafness. We of course now know that not only were his philosophies morally objectionable, his theories on genetic causes of deafness were seriously flawed.

 

[jillio]

Flippin the coin around. I like that.. Great points!!

Actually, rd, the coin has not been flipped at all. And the point that it continues that deafness is dealt with fromthe ethnocentric persective of what the hearing think is best for the deaf, rather than what the deaf are telling the hearing is best for them is exactly the complete and utter arrogance in attitude that my question served to illustrate.

 

[Jasper]

my point is, that these systems were developed by hearing people, and because of that, they were developed from the ethnocentric viewpoint of what the hearing think the deaf need. What about what the deaf think the deaf need?

What ABOUT what the deaf think they need? Are you saying that only deaf individuals can contribute to the "Deaf community"? If a person regardless of there hearing status.. colour.. race..or whatever, has something positive "even in their mind" to contribute.. shouldn't we at least take the time to see what they have to offer? Some people may take advantage of the new idea..some may not.. no one is pointing a gun at our heads and telling us to learn ESE.. or get a CI.. we all have a choice in this world..

So.. let me ask you YOUR question.. What to YOU think you need??? If you think these ideas are not acceptable for the Deaf community.. what do you think is needed in place of these ideas? If anything?

A deafr Miss America, and a deaf composer do not impact upon the educational achievement of deaf children. Huge difference.

So your saying that these two people have had NO impact upon education? or even encouragement to achieve things that others may say is impossible? While being beautiful isn't exactly something you learn to do.. it does inspire people.. But Beethoven.. he was in his late 20s and deaf when he wrote some of the greatest compositions in HISTORY! I did not even mention Ms. Keller because her story is almost a cliche of achievement..

And A.G. Bell not only supported oral education for all deaf people, but also supported the concept of soft eugenics by believing and attepting to put into law legislation that would prevent two deaf people from marrying to prevent any genetic causes of deafness. We of course now know that not only were his philosophies morally objectionable, his theories on genetic causes of deafness were seriously flawed.

I did not mention Alexander Bell because of these things..though his inventions at the time were awe inspiring..

Actually, rd, the coin has not been flipped at all. And the point that it continues that deafness is dealt with fromthe ethnocentric persective of what the hearing think is best for the deaf, rather than what the deaf are telling the hearing is best for them is exactly the complete and utter arrogance in attitude that my question served to illustrate.

Arrogance?? where?? what are they being arrogant about? are they being arrogant about being hearing and trying to help the (scarcasm) "poor deaf people of the world"? Are you saying that the deaf community does not need help? Or are you saying that the deaf community does not need help from the hearing? Please expand on the nature of their arrogance..

 

[jillio]

What ABOUT what the deaf think they need? Are you saying that only deaf individuals can contribute to the "Deaf community"? If a person regardless of there hearing status.. colour.. race..or whatever, has something positive "even in their mind" to contribute.. shouldn't we at least take the time to see what they have to offer? Some people may take advantage of the new idea..some may not.. no one is pointing a gun at our heads and telling us to learn ESE.. or get a CI.. we all have a choice in this world..

Did I say that? Please point to where I said that. I simply pointed out that it is an historical fact that deafness has largely been treated from an ethnocentric persepctive and that the hearing community as a whole is extremely reluctant to listen to the deaf individuals themselves. I find that objectionable. That the hearing professionals assume that they know better what a deaf individual needs simply because they are hearing. I would feel the same way regarding a caucasion presuming to know more about what it means to be black than the black man himself.

So.. let me ask you YOUR question.. What to YOU think you need??? If you think these ideas are not acceptable for the Deaf community.. what do you think is needed in place of these ideas? If anything?

LOL! I'm not deaf! And I didn't say that these ideas were not useful. What I said was we need to listen to the deaf individuals we propose to benefit in regard to applicability.


So your saying that these two people have had NO impact upon education? or even encouragement to achieve things that others may say is impossible? While being beautiful isn't exactly something you learn to do.. it does inspire people.. But Beethoven.. he was in his late 20s and deaf when he wrote some of the greatest compositions in HISTORY! I did not even mention Ms. Keller because her story is almost a cliche of achievement..

And no, they do not have impact on the decisions regarding educational policy as being formulated for today's deaf children. They can perhaps be used as examples, hoever, they have no impact on policy. Nor does Helen Keller.

I did not mention Alexander Bell because of these things..though his inventions at the time were awe inspiring..

You find a eugenicist inspiring?


Arrogance?? where?? what are they being arrogant about? are they being arrogant about being hearing and trying to help the (scarcasm) "poor deaf people of the world"? Are you saying that the deaf community does not need help? Or are you saying that the deaf community does not need help from the hearing? Please expand on the nature of their arrogance..

They are being arrogant in the assumption that they know more what a deaf individual needs or will benefit from than do the deaf indiviuals themselves simply becasue they are hearing. Inherent in that is the assumption that hearing is superior to deafness. I'm sayingthat assistance offered fromthe hearing community must be offered from a deaf perspective in order to be effective.

 

[Jasper]

the hearing community as a whole is extremely reluctant to listen to the deaf individuals themselves. I find that objectionable. That the hearing professionals assume that they know better what a deaf individual needs simply because they are hearing.

You think that? honestly? Please provide me with some information to back up the assumption that "hearing professionals" do not listen to deaf individuals, if possible please use some of the ideas you originally stated.

Who came up with the idea of mainstreamed education? Who invented the signing systems known as SEE, PSE, and CS. Who came up with the concept of oral education? Who invented CI? And not who, as in what was their name,
but who as in what was their hearing status?

(so you don't have to scroll back)

LOL! I'm not deaf! And I didn't say that these ideas were not useful. What I said was we need to listen to the deaf individuals we propose to benefit in regard to applicability.

Did you consult the deaf community then, before you decided to make the original post? Maybe the deaf community did not want this post.. I am currently in the process creating a "deaf hot-line" where I can contact the deaf community to see that when I say something about Deaf culture or the community that I love, I can make sure they approve it first. I will share this with you once its done.. but I'll have to ask the Deaf community first

You find a eugenicist inspiring?

I said inventions.. his personal thoughts about deaf people is the reason why I did not include him in my short list.. as I stated earlier..

I am trying to get at why you think people NEED to consult with the deaf community before they come up with an idea? Why do you think that they do no do that in the first place? And assuming that they do NOT consult the deaf community.. do you think that these inventions and ideas in fact harm the deaf community because they were not "consulted"?

I think that because you do not believe in mainstreaming, SEE, or even CI's you are trying to insult the inventors of them.. I can not see any other reason for the original post other then that.. Sure you think you are hiding your true intentions behind a veil of goodwill towards the deaf community.. but I think most people can see through that..

Most all of these ideas you are referring to are used to help hearing impaired children learn. All of them being successes to a good degree. And when it comes to children.. its up to the parents.. not a community (hearing OR deaf).

They are being arrogant in the assumption that they know more what a deaf individual needs or will benefit from than do the deaf indiviuals themselves simply becasue they are hearing.

You keep stating that, but I have yet to see any indication of proof of arrogance.

 

[rockdrummer]

Actually, rd, the coin has not been flipped at all. And the point that it continues that deafness is dealt with fromthe ethnocentric persective of what the hearing think is best for the deaf, rather than what the deaf are telling the hearing is best for them is exactly the complete and utter arrogance in attitude that my question served to illustrate.

From my perspective and for the reason I said it, the coin was flipped. Many people including deaf, deaf educators and hearing have been involved in the evolution of the various approaches. I’m not sure where you are going with this.

 

[shel90]

You think that? honestly? Please provide me with some information to back up the assumption that "hearing professionals" do not listen to deaf individuals, if possible please use some of the ideas you originally stated.

It happened to me when I worked at the deaf program at the public school. I kept offering suggestions because that program had so many problems but the other hearing professionals would just give me the nod and that silly smile and then they would move on chatting with each other on how that program would be run without even including me. Heck, even one teacher turned her back to me to talk with the other teachers. That is a perfect example right there. I quit cuz that program was so horrible and the children were not getting the education they deserved.



(so you don't have to scroll back)



Did you consult the deaf community then, before you decided to make the original post? Maybe the deaf community did not want this post.. I am currently in the process creating a "deaf hot-line" where I can contact the deaf community to see that when I say something about Deaf culture or the community that I love, I can make sure they approve it first. I will share this with you once its done.. but I'll have to ask the Deaf community first



I said inventions.. his personal thoughts about deaf people is the reason why I did not include him in my short list.. as I stated earlier..

I am trying to get at why you think people NEED to consult with the deaf community before they come up with an idea? Why do you think that they do no do that in the first place? And assuming that they do NOT consult the deaf community.. do you think that these inventions and ideas in fact harm the deaf community because they were not "consulted"?

I think that because you do not believe in mainstreaming, SEE, or even CI's you are trying to insult the inventors of them.. I can not see any other reason for the original post other then that.. Sure you think you are hiding your true intentions behind a veil of goodwill towards the deaf community.. but I think most people can see through that..

Most all of these ideas you are referring to are used to help hearing impaired children learn. All of them being successes to a good degree. And when it comes to children.. its up to the parents.. not a community (hearing OR deaf).




You keep stating that, but I have yet to see any indication of proof of arrogance.

I am deaf and I have many friends that are deaf, hoh, and have CIs..all of them..I mean ALL of them prefer to have ASL in the classroom so they can fully participate in discussion instead of trying to catch what everyone is saying. I am talking hundreds here...I havent met a deaf/hoh/CI person who said that they prefer ASL only or oral only..they wanted both until I joined here on AD and so many members here seem to prefer oral only. That was new to me.

 

[Jasper]

It happened to me when I worked at the deaf program at the public school. I kept offering suggestions because that program had so many problems but the other hearing professionals would just give me the nod and that silly smile and then they would move on chatting with each other on how that program would be run without even including me. Heck, even one teacher turned her back to me to talk with the other teachers. That is a perfect example right there. I quit cuz that program was so horrible and the children were not getting the education they deserved.

Sounds like a horrible program ran by obtuse individuals.. but I do not believe that perticular program is any indication of such a broad and encompassing statement as Jillio said. There are good leaders..and bad.. And as I have stated before.. if you have a good idea for whatever may be.. I would urge you to pursue that idea into fruition.

I am deaf and I have many friends that are deaf, hoh, and have CIs..all of them..I mean ALL of them prefer to have ASL in the classroom so they can fully participate in discussion instead of trying to catch what everyone is saying. I am talking hundreds here...I havent met a deaf/hoh/CI person who said that they prefer ASL only or oral only..they wanted both until I joined here on AD and so many members here seem to prefer oral only. That was new to me.

Shel90, I really like this quote.. It is amazing what people do from one area to another.. That is what is so great about AD.com .. It brings alot of different perspectives from various areas across the country and world. That statment sums that up perfectly.

I do not think it truly matters HOW or through what method they are taught.. as long as they are able to comprehend and advance themselves through the education they have gained. As a very wise man once told me "An education is the only thing in this world no one can EVER take away from you". If someone is able to learn..and has the drive to learn and do more.. the rest is just semantics.

I hope my postings on AD.com are not taken in the wrong contexts. And that I am not looked at as being argumentative for the sake of just being argumentative. I just do not like blanket statements towards any community, culture, or status of individuals, because statements like that do not give rise to proper understanding of each others differences..what ever they may be..

 

[jillio]

You think that? honestly? Please provide me with some information to back up the assumption that "hearing professionals" do not listen to deaf individuals, if possible please use some of the ideas you originally stated.



(so you don't have to scroll back)



Did you consult the deaf community then, before you decided to make the original post? Maybe the deaf community did not want this post.. I am currently in the process creating a "deaf hot-line" where I can contact the deaf community to see that when I say something about Deaf culture or the community that I love, I can make sure they approve it first. I will share this with you once its done.. but I'll have to ask the Deaf community first



I said inventions.. his personal thoughts about deaf people is the reason why I did not include him in my short list.. as I stated earlier..

I am trying to get at why you think people NEED to consult with the deaf community before they come up with an idea? Why do you think that they do no do that in the first place? And assuming that they do NOT consult the deaf community.. do you think that these inventions and ideas in fact harm the deaf community because they were not "consulted"?

I think that because you do not believe in mainstreaming, SEE, or even CI's you are trying to insult the inventors of them.. I can not see any other reason for the original post other then that.. Sure you think you are hiding your true intentions behind a veil of goodwill towards the deaf community.. but I think most people can see through that..

Most all of these ideas you are referring to are used to help hearing impaired children learn. All of them being successes to a good degree. And when it comes to children.. its up to the parents.. not a community (hearing OR deaf).




You keep stating that, but I have yet to see any indication of proof of arrogance.

Why do they need to consult with the deaf community? Isn't that obvious? Who are they attempting to serve.

And, if you can't see the examples of arrogance throught history, I can reccommend some really informative books onthe history of the deaf experience. Or you could takl to a few daf people who have experienced tht arrogance first hand. And examples of that arrogance are available right here on AD. Just look around at the number of times that the statement has been made that oral language provides greater opportunity and allows for assimilation in hearing culture. You don't find that attitude ethnocentric? You don't find the fact that educational policy is being set by individuals that have absolutley no contact with deaf individuals save the one or two young students that they have encountered intheir classroom, yet they feel that they are qualified to make decisions that affect these children for the rest of their lives, based on nothing more than the assumption that these kids, and all deaf individuals motivation is life is to become more like a hearing person?

 

[jillio]

From my perspective and for the reason I said it, the coin was flipped. Many people including deaf, deaf educators and hearing have been involved in the evolution of the various approaches. I’m not sure where you are going with this.

And you are wrong. Deaf and deaf educators have been involved in the evolution of such approaches as TC and Bi-Bi. But, the oral method and mainstreaming....thanks to cochlear implantation, the most often used methods now--are completely hearing based methods and manners of placement.

 

[Jasper]

Why do they need to consult with the deaf community? Isn't that obvious? Who are they attempting to serve.

I don't know.. who ARE they attempting to serve? Does it matter? If a neighbor shows up at your house..and offers you some cheese that he bought as a gift for you while he was in France.. But he did not realize you were lactose intolarent.. would you refuse the gift and tell him that he hurt your feelings..and did not consult with you first about your gift?.. And then call him arrogant because he assumed that you liked cheese in the first place.. Of course not! If you were a decent human being you would accept the gift.. say thank you.. and either throw it away.. or better yet.. re-gift it!!

Now.. i realize this situation is a bit silly.. but.. do you see my point? If someone wants to make a contribution to the community.. I say go for it.. at least they are wanting to become an active part of that community..

--

you don't find the fact that educational policy is being set by individuals that have absolutley no contact with deaf individuals save the one or two young students that they have encountered intheir classroom, yet they feel that they are qualified to make decisions that affect these children for the rest of their lives, based on nothing more than the assumption that these kids, and all deaf individuals motivation is life is to become more like a hearing person?

Again with the blanket statements.. Your saying that hearing mentors and teachers have no other care in their hearts other then to try to get their deaf students to become more like hearing students.. You do realize that the parents of these deaf children are the ones who make these choices.. There are MANY options you can do to raise a deaf child. You have pointed most of them out.. but the fact is.. most deaf children are born to hearing parents.. They want their child to hear, and be able to function in the hearing world

I have a hearing friend who's son was born deaf.. he received a CI when he was around three years old.. He is now 10 and being mainstreamed through the Florida school system with fairly good success. He goes to a speech therapist twice a week to improve his oral communication skills, which his father has told me is going to be reduced because he is doing very well. His grades are excellent for any student.. but no.. he does not know much ASL as he has forgotten most of what his father and myself taught him.. or anything about Deaf culture.. But I do not think that is either a bad thing.. or an issue.. I am just proud of him for making good grades in school and being a good kid.. I do not think a parent could hope for anything more.

We have switched from making blanket statements of saying that the inventors SEE, PSE, and CS.. as well as mainstreaming are all arrogant.. to education.. while I can see the topics are linked due to the intricate nature of education and communication.. I think you are just wanting to use your original statment as a springboard to bash these types of educational styles..

Jillio, I know you have an issue with deaf education that does not include ASL.. I have seen it in your previous posts.. Thats fine.. but calling these inventors of different types of communication arrogant because YOU think they had no input from deaf individuals when they formed these methods of communication is ridiculous.

 

[loml]

Jasper