Prayer Fails

[netrox]

I don't believe in supernatural Benny Hinn faith healing, but prayer DOES help. My first girlfriend prayed for me when I had my ear surgery. Guess what? Not only did my hearing improve in my ear that had the surgery, it improved in the ear that DIDN"T have the surgery!

That's because you THINK it has to be prayer. There are people who claim to see again or hear again or act differently after having surgeries that are not related to their handicaps or problems. It's not unusual for a surgery to cause weird side effects - it's well documented and prayer has nothing to do with it. If I say, "I prayed that you'd get dizzy" and you get dizzy, does that mean my prayer works? Nope. It's just that you are CREDITING your improved hearing to prayer but you WOULD STILL be able to hear even if you were NOT being prayed upon.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Just because I said "ALWAYS" or "NOTHING" does not make me wrong. I am still correct. The burden of proof rests on religious people. NO SINGLE CLAIM HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE TRUE. I repeat, NO SINGLE CLAIM. Everyone has a *personal* experience and may make a conclusion (often misleading) but it does not make it a scientific fact. It has to be proven by repeating the experiment or demonstrating the claim. So far, no supernatural claim is ever proven true. Nada.

Nor have claims for such things as prayer as a concept been disproven. I say "as a concept" to rule out any comments that there are people's hoaxes that have been disproven. Those have, and rightly so. However, science has not disproven God's existence (or active intervention), and does not have the tools to do so. Taken by itself, science would seem rather to cultivate an agnostic rather than hardline atheistic viewpoint. Anything else beyond that is a matter of your personal belief.

 

[MorriganTait]

I guess it comes down to what we believe is the purpose of prayer. I don't personally believe that prayer is meant to influence God into intervening miraculously in a situation - my own or someone else's. So if you are praying for that kind of thing and it does or doesn't happen, it gives you cause to say prayer does or doesn't work.

I believe prayer and meditaion serve the purpose of changing our relationship with God, and provide a vital point of contact to hear the call. By the consistent act of prayer, I can most assuredly attest that my relationship with God hase developed, and I have been engaged everincreasingly in a procession of better and better choices. There is no way for science to prove or disprove this either.

My friend used to say, you can pray to God because you are hungry, but he isn't going to come down and cook you a hot dog - you have to do it yourself.

So, it's possible if you expect God to be some cosmic ATM, that prayer "doesn't work" - but if you take a wider view of the purpose of prayer, its much harder to say that.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

This is one of my favorite song which applied of prayer life with God and its so true:: I come to the garden alonem while the dew is still on the roses. And the voice I hear, falling on my ear, The Son of God discloses,,, and He walks with me, and He talks with me, And He tells me I am His own, And the joy we share as we tarry there, None other has ever known.......I'd stay in the garden with Him, tho the night around me be falling, but He bids me go, thro' the voice of woe, His voice to me is calling,,,,,And He walks with me and He talks with me, And He tells me I am His own, and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known.. This song is so true. Prayer is a beautiful moment. If u died urself and let God using u, you will get the picture. No reason everything will have an easy life, prayer is in many ways, devotional/worship, battle,healings, hardship and all kinds. The more deep u read the lives of the believers in the old u ll see how God works thru dark times. This world is for a purpose, this isn't a bed of roses. Let go and let God. Smile

 

[netrox]

Many don't realize the power of suggestion - if I give you a pill and tell you that it'll give you energy, you'd likely to believe it and claim you feel more energy even though the pill contains inert ingredients. That's been observed in many studies.

If I tell you, "Your prayer will heal you" and you get healed after the prayer, you'd likely to credit it to the prayer even though you would be healed just fine without it. Studies have done that over and over and they showed NO proof that prayer works. Remember, there is no difference in recovery rate between groups with prayer and without prayer.

So, why should your personal experience with prayer be true even though statistically, you would be NO different from those who never had a prayer?

This is not to say that prayer's bad and all that, if you feel confident and believe it will help you, then go for it but statistically, you'll face the SAME risks as people who did not get prayer or prayed for. For example, we have people who claim that their prayer cured their cancer which HAD to be "a miracle" but they fail to realize that the same number of non-religious people had their cancer disappear for no apparent reason as well.

Just think carefully - if non-religious people recovered the same as religious people do, why do you think prayer still works even though it has NO effect on their outcome? Also remember, those who knew they were getting prayer got worse (definitely due to placebo effect). Don't you think it's immoral and unethical to cause them to feel worse when you know they'd likely to feel better if you do not pray for them (in front of them)?

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Like I said prayer is not just healing, is more than that and not only that true, even those who aren't christians going thru healing too. But strong words from Jesus said, not everone say Lord Lord will enter heaven. What He meant is doing works without Christ and many will say Lord, u remember I heal someone in ur name, I prophesied ur name, but I say to you, depart from me, I never knew you. Jesus is saying rely on your own without Him will suffer loss. Faith is the subtance we have not seen. As Jesus said to Thomas after Thomas doubted Jesus was raised from the dead, Jesus said now u have seen me, but blessed are those who have not seen Me yet they believe. All trying to find proof proof proof. But time will comes and those continue not believing will regret big time u ever experince and will be painful one worse than woman child bearing. He doesn't want to see anyone go thru that. He is so much loving, and try to give u a a biggest gift u ll ever have, and its simple, all u have to do is ask. Yes, many so called faith healing pr3eachers like benny hinn, or oral robets and stuff, I wouldn't say anything about them bec its not my power to know what they are doing, but sadly which leading many people confuse to know the truth. Jesus is THE Truth. Relying on certain things isn't the answer, but faith and grace alone.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

Forgot one more thing, during Jeus times, those pharisees and saducees, as Jesus said, all the works He has done what they saw, but sadly still not believing Him.

 

[deafdyke]

Netrox, but on the other hand the ENT was the T. Berry Brazelton of the ENT world, and HE couldn't explain the improvement in my hearing!
There's gotta be something there.......Me, I don't nessarly believe it's God or a Higher Power, but maybe just a form of The Power of Positive Thinking (sort of like Dynetics ala L.Ron Hubbard) Thing is, I am skeptical, but I'm HEALTHILY skeptical....

 

[MorriganTait]

So, why should your personal experience with prayer be true even though statistically, you would be NO different from those who never had a prayer? Just think carefully - if non-religious people recovered the same as religious people do, why do you think prayer still works even though it has NO effect on their outcome?

You have been referring to only one study which attempted to test only one thing that people believe prayer does (and not ALL prayerful people believe it either.) There have been inumerable studies to show that the specific practices that some people engage in while in prayer do affect outcomes: meditation, relaxation, self-hypnosis, deep breathing. Prayer also has been shown to increase positive emotions, decrease negative emotions, and relieve physical and emotional stress - all of which have been shown to improve patient outcomes for many types of treated medical conditions. You cannot tell me that these things do not come about by the act of prayer, and you can't tell me they don't "work" because there are studies to show that each of these components DO work.

I might accept a premise that "praying for God to intercede into the health matters of another individual" does not work, but that is not what you have claimed. You have categorically claimed that prayer - all prayer - doesn't "work".

Prayer is not just one simple thing - it is a uniquely personal act which differs for each person. You simply cannot claim that there is no validity to all acts of prayer, because you don't even know what goes on for some people when they are praying, what they expect from thier prayers and what they actually do while praying.

Try reviewing the following article: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/69/story_6991_5.html

Here are several direct citations for you to review about the positive effects of prayer on health:

Byrd, Randolph. "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population." Southern Medical Journal 81 (1988): 826-829.

Harris, William, et al. "A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit." Archives of Internal Medicine 159: 2273-2278.

Koenig H., et al. "The Relationship Between Religious Activities and Blood Pressure in Older Adults." International Journal of Psychological Medicine 28 (1998): 189-213.

Levin, Jeffrey, et al. "Prayer and Health During Pregnancy: Findings From the Galveston Low Birth Weight Study." Southern Medical Journal 86(9) (1993): 1022-1027.

Koenig, Harold, et al. "Religion and the Survival of 1,010 Hospitalized Veterans." Journal of Religion and Health 37(1) (1999): 15-29.

Propst L.R, et al. "Religious Values and Psychotherapy and Mental Health." Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 60 (1992): 94-103.

Azhar M.Z. et al. "Religious Psychotherapy in Anxiety Disorder Patients." Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica 90 (1994): 1-3.

Koenig, Harold, et al. "Religiosity and Remission of Depression in Medically Ill Older Patients." American Journal of Psychiatry 155(4) (1998): 536-42.

 

[netrox]

You have been referring to only one study which attempted to test only one thing that people believe prayer does (and not ALL prayerful people believe it either.) There have been inumerable studies to show that the specific practices that some people engage in while in prayer do affect outcomes: meditation, relaxation, self-hypnosis, deep breathing. Prayer also has been shown to increase positive emotions, decrease negative emotions, and relieve physical and emotional stress - all of which have been shown to improve patient outcomes for many types of treated medical conditions. You cannot tell me that these things do not come about by the act of prayer, and you can't tell me they don't "work" because there are studies to show that each of these components DO work.

I actually agree with most of what you said. I do believe that a person *personally* doing the prayer may benefit. But you know what? TM (Transcendial Mediation) also works very well. So do certain exercises. I also know hypnosis works. I am very aware of those techniques. That, I am extremely open to that since the outcome does seem different compared to controls and believe them to be beneficial.

But that study is pretty consistent with previous studies though - when someone prays for you and you don't know, the outcome is STILL the same. When the patients knew they were being prayed, the outcome is altered a little which shows evidence of mental suggestion.

What I am being critical of is how people attribute too much to their prayer to "healing others" (provided that they DONT know they're being healed). I also wanted to see responses and expected those kind of responses. So far, yours come out well-laid out.

I might accept a premise that "praying for God to intercede into the health matters of another individual" does not work, but that is not what you have claimed. You have categorically claimed that prayer - all prayer - doesn't "work".

I was talking about that particular prayer not being effective meaning that praying for someone (without their knowledge) won't help. I don't doubt that a person's "personal prayer" for his/her health can make a difference. I noticed I come across really harsh. Shame on me.

 

[MorriganTait]

I was talking about that particular prayer not being effective meaning that praying for someone (without their knowledge) won't help.

Except the title of your thread is "Prayer Fails". You can't unring that bell. If you didn't mean to refer to all prayer, you could have chosen to be more specific...but you weren't more specific, and that is quite telling.

 

[me_punctured]

Except the title of your thread is "Prayer Fails". You can't unring that bell. If you didn't mean to refer to all prayer, you could have chosen to be more specific...but you weren't more specific, and that is quite telling.

Agreed. One glance at the title of your thread and I was initially convinced that you were arguing that prayer does not work, period, regardless of its purpose in individual cases and general.

 

[Riptide]

I think it is more like "The Power of Positive Thinking".

What about the Indian rain dances? You people think that works?

Prayer and rain dances are one and the same, just a different custom.

 

[Reba]

The difference between positive thinking and meditation, is that those methods don't include intercessory prayer for other people and events. They just focus inwardly on self.

Jesus tells us to also pray for the needs of other people, and for the direction of world events. Those are beyond the scope of positive thinking.

 

[hottiedeafboi]

I agree with Reba, that's exactly what I said in earlier. Prayer should be in like a relational devotion and inner being examination and cleansing and many other thing. Have to have more than just pray for others or healing. Its more than that. Its more as of solitude moments with God. Sense of His presence. Its a beautiful way. If u look carefully how Jesus prayed, taught and who He normally associate with and minister to. Busyness of this world steal our moments with Him. I love one song by Larnelle Harris sings, I Missed My Time Wiith You. Its about a place where u spend time with Him, but time becomes vulnerable and stole our time from stop to spend time with the Lord, and Jesus is there waiting for u, but seeing u running around busy busy busy, till He said to you, I miss my time with u. He wants u personally. Positive thinking, hypnosis, palm reading and etc, seems work, but remember in the old, like King Solomon,King Saul was involved and God said what they have done did evil in the eyes of God. The point is many chose their own way than what God is saying. Many chose their own way what they want, but not do anything or care what God wants and gives. He loves all of us, but, many rather follow human theories or philosophies or whatever u call it and perspectives. Prayer must be involve in worship and devote. He's not out there somewhere, He is right there in a heartbeat and waiting for you.

 

[GalaxyAngel]

My favorite verison..

John 14:6

No matter what if you not accept his... as same condiser not praying as make you think "Prayers fails". None of true.. By the way as your choice.. That's fine w/me.. No further discussion.. What more you kept critizite them contuine.. useless.. You have to respect them and let them go..

Prayer can be come "miracle" one day not too often until God's answer will come..
I admit I do praying everyday before I goes sleep for my bedtime. I do not have Deaf Church in my homearea.. but still kept faith and contuine praying.. Doesn't matter as long I hope one day will come provide an intepreter in nearby my neighbour Penstontal Christian church.. I've prayed and wait patience then will come..

We cannot drive another town that where Deaf Church due timing shift working..

 

[MorriganTait]

The difference between positive thinking and meditation, is that those methods don't include intercessory prayer for other people and events.

It is precisely this intercessory prayer that the study Netrox references is attempting to determine the efficacy of. But again, I think it really comes down to this.

God answers ALL prayers...


Its just that sometimes the answer is NO.

 

[jazzy]

God answers ALL prayers...


Its just that sometimes the answer is NO.

Whom do God answer prayer, people who pray for the illegal aliens to stay here in USA or people who pray for them to go back to their own country?

 

[Reba]

Whom do God answer prayer, people who pray for the illegal aliens to stay here in USA or people who pray for them to go back to their own country?

That is for God to decide.

 

[MorriganTait]

Whom do God answer prayer, people who pray for the illegal aliens to stay here in USA or people who pray for them to go back to their own country?

Well, some illegal immigrants have been deported, and some have been allowed to stay. Looks like God is
a.) working on a case-by-case basis
or
b.) NOT miraculously intervening in human affairs, but rather, is providing each of us a whole host of possibilities and allowing US free will to decide how we will act.