Possible Middleground In The CI Debate
- Thread starter C-NICE
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One word: Transposition!
My HAs offer transposition which shifts the high frequencies downwards. You do need enough residual hearing at the 1500Hz cutoff to benefit however. There are other HAs that transpose sounds much further down, like 750Hz or even 500Hz. I know someone who couldn't hear above 750Hz, yet she hears the high frequencies because they have been transposed down to a frequency of 750Hz or lower.
The hybrid CIs don't work well, ive read about and know a few who tried it. They still lost alot of residual hearing. What's worse is they are now missing out on the low frequencies and will require a 2nd CI operation for a longer electrode if they want to hear the lows again. CIs are great for those with no or very, very little residual hearing. For those with plenty of residual hearing, lots of different HAs to choose from including several with transposition.
Here's an article showing the benefits of transposition. There's hundreds more such articles and case studies, do a Google search.
http://www.hearingreview.com/issues/articles/2007-03_10.asp
My HAs offer transposition which shifts the high frequencies downwards. You do need enough residual hearing at the 1500Hz cutoff to benefit however. There are other HAs that transpose sounds much further down, like 750Hz or even 500Hz. I know someone who couldn't hear above 750Hz, yet she hears the high frequencies because they have been transposed down to a frequency of 750Hz or lower.
The hybrid CIs don't work well, ive read about and know a few who tried it. They still lost alot of residual hearing. What's worse is they are now missing out on the low frequencies and will require a 2nd CI operation for a longer electrode if they want to hear the lows again. CIs are great for those with no or very, very little residual hearing. For those with plenty of residual hearing, lots of different HAs to choose from including several with transposition.
Here's an article showing the benefits of transposition. There's hundreds more such articles and case studies, do a Google search.
http://www.hearingreview.com/issues/articles/2007-03_10.asp
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faire_jour
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The audiologist at House Ear Institute I spoke to, said that in the research studies he did with the hybrid, almost all the patients eventually lost their residual hearing, and most then needed a second surgery for the long electrode.
Transposition does nothing for speech clarity. It simply shifts the sound down. If you still have a significant hearing loss in those frequencies, you will not get a ton of speech comprehension.
The only way for a severe-profoundly deaf person to get speech comprehension is through a CI.
My audiologist told me about a study done with children with hearing loss. It said those with a 70 db loss or greater perform better with a CI than with hearing aids. Less than 69 db, did well with hearing aids. I will look for the sitation.
Transposition does nothing for speech clarity. It simply shifts the sound down. If you still have a significant hearing loss in those frequencies, you will not get a ton of speech comprehension.
The only way for a severe-profoundly deaf person to get speech comprehension is through a CI.
My audiologist told me about a study done with children with hearing loss. It said those with a 70 db loss or greater perform better with a CI than with hearing aids. Less than 69 db, did well with hearing aids. I will look for the sitation.
somedeafdudefromPNW
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Be careful with the word "only"... I am considered as profoundly deaf and I can hear people talking with a hearing aid, and the audiologist I have been seeing for well over 15 years say that a CI would not help me at all.
Won't touch on the rest, just need to touch up on word choice.
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Be careful with the word "only"... I am considered as profoundly deaf and I can hear people talking with a hearing aid, and the audiologist I have been seeing for well over 15 years say that a CI would not help me at all.
Won't touch on the rest, just need to touch up on word choice.
Same for me, but I doubt it will make any difference to someone who doesn't want to hear it.
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souggy and Bottesini, you guys can actually understand people without lipreading?
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No. But I did not think that was the point.
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I was genuinely curious. I still get shocked when I hear someone who calls themselves deaf and they can actually comprehend speech without any visual cues . Not that they shouldn't call themselves deaf or anything, it's just something I'm not used to.
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One of my friends was a dancer for Rathskeller calls herself Deaf even though she can hear and understand the lyrics of several songs. One time we were at a bar and she was interpreting the songs being played over the speakers to us in ASL. It was awesome! Nobody gives a crap if she calls herself deaf or Deaf. She grew up going to a deaf school. She is an outstanding dancer and performer.
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One of my friends was a dancer for Rathskeller calls herself Deaf even though she can hear and understand the lyrics of several songs. One time we were at a bar and she was interpreting the songs being played over the speakers to us in ASL. It was awesome! Nobody cares if she calls herself deaf or Deaf. She is an outstanding dancer and performer.
somedeafdudefromPNW
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I can lipread, but only if the person is about a foot away from me since I can't see them at all. If the person is 10 feet away from me in a lecture room, more than 4 would sounds like mumbling, or 3 feet away in public space, I can't hear them at all. I know hearing people who can hear a lot better than that.
With me, it is just listening to people and listening to the way they talk rather than lipreading. After about 3 or 4 hours of non-stop conversations, I can fill in the gaps without lipreading because I know their accents and their speech pattern. But if I just met them, I am lost past the "Hello, what's your name? Mine is ______"
I thank God everyday girls like to ramble on and on without expecting me to say anything. Not very good friends with guys for that reason though...
So it's more of understanding human behaviour and understanding speech pattern, predicting what people say by LISTENING to them than HEARING what they are actually saying.
People tend to forget that D/deaf are better LISTENERS than hearing people are and remember more details of the conversations than say a hearing person would. Hearing does not means listening.
To give you an idea, in order to learn the lyrics of a song, I need to hear it about 30 times before I have an idea what they are actually singing. At live concerts, I am screwed unless someone is saying a familiar word beside me since the timing in real life are different than the actual recordings.
Hope that clear up questions you may have.
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Souggy, I used to do that to several 80s songs and even today if they get played on the radio, I recognize the lyrics and start singing along with them. Hoever due to my memory fading, I am starting to forget some words..lol.
As for conversations and deaf people being better listeners...interesting point.
As for conversations and deaf people being better listeners...interesting point.
somedeafdudefromPNW
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Well, to listen means to pay attention. How many Deaf people out there remember things better than hearing people because it is a survival tactic? To me, they listen. Hearing people just hear. For most of them, what go in one ear go out the other, while we retain the information we come across.
Even though I can't even understand 70% of what people say aurally, I remember most of the conversations I have listened to over the years than say... 80-90% of hearing people? I used to tick off my girlfriends a lot when I would hold them against their words that they have long forgotten.
Even though I can't even understand 70% of what people say aurally, I remember most of the conversations I have listened to over the years than say... 80-90% of hearing people? I used to tick off my girlfriends a lot when I would hold them against their words that they have long forgotten.
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Well, to listen means to pay attention. How many Deaf people out there remember things better than hearing people because it is a survival tactic? To me, they listen. Hearing people just hear. For most of them, what go in one ear go out the other, while we retain the information we come across.
Even though I can't even understand 70% of what people say aurally, I remember most of the conversations I have listened to over the years than say... 80-90% of hearing people? I used to tick off my girlfriends a lot when I would hold them against their words that they have long forgotten.
That would make sense because I was always telling my mom, as a child, of things she had told me years before and she was would exclaim, "How do you remember all these things?!" I thought it was due to my good memory but since you brought this up, I wonder if it was because of my need to retain information whenever I could due to missing out on what's happening around me. I always like to get different perspectives especially ones I have never thought of.
somedeafdudefromPNW
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That would make sense because I was always telling my mom, as a child, of things she had told me years before and she was would exclaim, "How do you remember all these things?!" I thought it was due to my good memory but since you brought this up, I wonder if it was because of my need to retain information whenever I could due to missing out on what's happening around me. I always like to get different perspectives especially ones I have never thought of.
You will find this funny... I told this to an oralist Teacher of the Deaf who was pushing my parents to get CIs for me when I was 12 or 13... "Why do I want to be a hearing drone? Most of them forget things and just wander around mindlessly. What's wrong with being Deaf?"
He was speechless! He couldn't even come up with a counter-point. Of course at that time, I didn't make the connection that most hearing people don't pay attention to what they hear until 6 years later. I honestly thought they were forgetful until an interpreter started recording lectures to prove a point that I listen better than other people do.
Then I don't expect hybrid CI to ever become FDA approved. I know a woman who got "hybrid" CI off lable. The surgeon used a medel CI with a shortened array of 12 electrodes and he only inserted it(very slowly and carefully!) deep enough for 10 electrodes to be in the cochlea. She still lost 25db of hearing and everything above 750Hz is gone. Her loss is now too profound to benefit from a HA in the CI ear. Her CI is still deep enough to hear 250Hz(at 35db threshold) but she complains she can't hear drums, bass, humming or any low frequency sounds in the CI ear which she hears great in the HA ear. What little residual hearing she kept will probably be gone soon.
I have thought about a hybrid CI for myself but I have too much HL even in the lows to qualify and ill just end up losing it all later anyway. Any CI would destroy my still decent residual low frequency hearing that is able to be aided very well with powerful HAs.
How far down can it shift the sound? If it can shift down to 1000Hz, ill hear high frequencies at 40db HL. If they can be shifted to 500Hz, then make it 20db HL. My HAs don't shift below 1500Hz so ill hear the highs at 60db HL at the best and that's completely outside the speech banana anyway.
If you or anyone know of a HA that can shift sounds further down than 1500Hz and still have enough power to properly amplify the lows, ill ask my audiologist about this and maybe even get a trial.
Many deaf people have enough residual hearing to understand some speech with HAs and even more so with transposition. I showed you an article of this profoundly deaf man scoring 90% speech. He did get CI and only improved another 5%, waste of $50,000. :roll: My audiologist will say that his ability to do so well has much to do with his training his brain. Once your brain can fill in the blanks, you can score high. I am able to get most numbers right(1-999) that my mom says to me without lipreading with the TV on. Honestly if people put as much effort with HAs as they do with CIs, they will score very well with HAs!
I looked into this and it appears that 75db is the cutoff where half do better with CI and half do better with HAs. Of course there's no way I would touch a CI nor ever give anyone a CI with less than around 100db HL. I used to have a 100db HL in the mid frequencies in 1998 and was aided to 35db with HAs. If my loss today was still 100db instead of 120db, id be aided to 25db with my powerful Phonak Naida HAs. I will have to scan that audiogram from 1998 to show everyone. CI candidacy requirements back then were proper and not too lax.
I can, but not perfectly. My dad is the easiest of all the people. I prefer to read lips as I can understand over 90% that way.
If they can understand or even hear speech without HAs, they are not deaf but simply hard of hearing. A hearing loss of less than 70db is no longer deaf and a such person will start hearing sounds and speech unaided.
Youd still be deaf with a CI. I am still deaf with HAs, as they don't cure me, they simply amplify my residual hearing. I guess I could be hard of hearing with HAs but once they come off, I am thrust into a silent world. If I lose my residual hearing and can't hear with HAs then yes id get CIs or whatever technology is out by then.
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That statement, I have to agree with. It may not be 100% of the time but I have seen my deaf friends carry short conversations on the phone with hearing aids. I can understand "Hello", "yes", "No" and a few others on the phone but not enough to carry on a conversation.
R
rockdrummer
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Deafness is defined as
1 : lacking or deficient in the sense of hearing
Deficient is defined as;
1 : lacking in some necessary quality or element <deficient in judgment>
2 : not up to a normal standard or complement : defective <deficient strength>
Based on that, deafness can include folks that have the ability to hear enough to understand speech. Deafness (by definition) does not have a clear cut off point. I think that HOH and deafness could be considered one in the same. I am sure some people will disagree with that but it is my personal observation.
1 : lacking or deficient in the sense of hearing
Deficient is defined as;
1 : lacking in some necessary quality or element <deficient in judgment>
2 : not up to a normal standard or complement : defective <deficient strength>
Based on that, deafness can include folks that have the ability to hear enough to understand speech. Deafness (by definition) does not have a clear cut off point. I think that HOH and deafness could be considered one in the same. I am sure some people will disagree with that but it is my personal observation.