Poor aided results above 500Hz

faire_jour said:
Yes. She was born hearing but had a moderate loss by 18 months. She lost more and more hearing until, at 5, she was severe to profound. She had 60 at 250 but 105 at 2000.
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:ty: for clarifying, faire_jour. :)
 
Hey have not gotten a reply from you, maybe you didn't find my reply hidden in all the other replies. Your HA aided audiogram was similar to mine and your answers could shed some light on my own problems.


Originally Posted by overthepond
I have been profoundly deaf all my life, I went through so many HA's in the last 2 years to get better results, EVERY top of the range powerful HA's were no good to me, I had widex senso p38 (or is it SP?) It was brilliant, I was able to hear my own voice for the first time (yr 2000) It was little too distorted but i was able to tune down my voice. I could hear the environmental sounds a bit better. I still weren't able to understand speech at all without vision. The Audi told me at the time it may not benefit for me since it's digital HA and it's not suitable for Profoundly deaf.
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I had the widex senso p18+ and it was great back in 1998 when I got it. Before that I had analog HAs and I noticed an improvement with the digital. I kept those till 2008 when I got my Phonak Naidas. I did try a different HA in 2005 but the audie(not the same one who fitted me with the Naidias) could not program it to be any better than my old widex, he still insisted on selling it to me which made him mad when I refused to try it more than 10 minutes. Um I know my ears and if he can't program it to improve in 10 min, it won't change in 30 days.


Since the widex got old, in need for repairs etc, I was refered to new Audi as i had moved. They couldn't replace the Widex since it was private also they have stopped making those brands for NHS so therefore i had to try others at the time they also refered me to ENT.
The ENT said... "I am not sure if i could find a better HA for you... would you consider CI? Your speech is very good". At that time I had already thought about getting and researched CI for years. I tried with another hospital in different county 2 years beforehand who refused point blank and said there is no way CI would work for me so i didn't ask my current ENT, He asked me.
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Ive had the same, some audiologists thought a CI might work better for me, others said I have too much residual hearing. One audie initially suggested I get a CI but later retracted his suggestion and said todays CI technology wouldn't be worth it over what I get with my best HAs which he fitted me with. He's an expert and ive emailed him a bunch of questions, including concerns why my gains are so poor above 500Hz. Hopefully ill get a response Monday afternoon, will keep you guys tuned.

So tried my widex. My lows was good. But the highs were hopeless. The Audi got me an appt to try another ha. Next Ha was Otcion another powerful digital. I got poorer audiogram with this than my Widex. The audi said there isn't anything more powerful than this and told me to take it home and try it.
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How can a Widex from 2000 be stronger than the Oticon from 2008? Actually I was in the same boat when I tried a HA back in 2005 and it was the same as my Widex from 1998. My audie who sold me those Phonak Naidas told me that the audie I went to in 2005 didn't know how to program them correctly.

Was the aided scores you provided with two widex HAs? It says right HA, you also wore the left HA? I assume so otherwise youd have a NR above 1000Hz aided with just the right HA. 30, 45, 60, 80, 105 were your aided results. Did you have the Widex at max gain? If yes, did anyone explain why you scored so poorly above 500Hz like I am? I still have my old aided audiogram from 1998 and I scored around 30db at 250, 500Hz and around 50db at 1000Hz to 4000Hz. My hearing back then was 70db at 250Hz, 90db at 500Hz, 100 to 105db at 1000Hz to 6000Hz(flat audiogram from 1000Hz to 6000Hz) so I was getting the max possible gain. With my new HAs im getting less and when I try the old HAs, they are even worse now at all frequencies. Does an additional 10db hearing loss really correspond to an aided score of 30db worse? It makes no sense!

Few months later the widex died. I used the otcion... my life just went! I became isolated because i couldn't hear very much. They turned it up to max but everything sounded so distorted. Gladly i only had to put up with it for few months until my CI was approved. When i told the Audi that i wanted Analouge HA for my other ear. She did say that might be better but warned me that i wouldn't hear much and gave me one, I was only able to hear environmental sounds, it sounded very quiet, i couldn't hear my voice. While i was under CI assesment they did CT scan, my surgeon said that i am missing basilar membrane in the highs... hence thats why i couldn't hear and would never hear the highs at all with HA's. Only CI could solve this.
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So it was not maxed out when you got your aided audiogram? Also the speakers can really give 105db? Was your ear a few inches from speakers? My audie told me he maxed it 90%. I believe him because when I tried my old widex, I heard worse at every frequency. Can you explain distorted sound? My HAs list a distortion of only 1% to 2% on the technicial specs so I generally don't notice it. Thanks for your long post and your answers.
 
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deafdude,

Could you do me a favor? Could you separate your response from the post you're quoting in some definable way because I'm having alot of difficulty determining who is saying what. Thanks!
 
deafdude1 said:
Hey have not gotten a reply from you, maybe you didn't find my reply hidden in all the other replies. Your HA aided audiogram was similar to mine and your answers could shed some light on my own problems.
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I'm not sure if you're specifically talking to me, but I told you that I have to find it first.

Plus - I'm not sure if I even want to share it because you will constantly compare my results to yours. Every person's loss is different! Never compare yours to anyone else. Perfect example: My best friend has better hearing than I do in the highs. She has a ski slope loss, but she can hear pretty well in the highs. It has been exactly the same for over 30 years, no changes. She is sensitive in the highs. I have a ski slope loss as well, progressively getting worse. I have NR in the highs after 2500hz. She can hear good in environmental sounds, however, she has a very hard time understanding people, her lip reading skills is not as great as mine, she cannot understand music very well. Having said this, just because someone has a similar loss than mine doesn't mean that person will have the exact same result as it is listening outside of the booth.
 
Hear Again said:
deafdude,

Could you do me a favor? Could you separate your response from the post you're quoting in some definable way because I'm having alot of difficulty determining who is saying what. Thanks!
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Did you mean you want DeafDude to just put everything in one quote, instead of separating them into sections of quotes?

If so, basically he is responding to the entire post of Overthepond's a few posts back.
 
Yes, the response was for Overthepond's. I had asked her a bunch of questions. Anyway I am going to have the transposition feature in my HAs tested to see if it's even working/enabled and if so, what frequencies are transpositioning into what frequencies. This will shed some light on some of the issues im having. I tried the transposition demo on Phonak's website and it appears that mine is not working/enabled or is transpositioning at frequencies beyond what I can hear. Yes LadySekhmet, I know ill never hear high frequencies without transposition making them lower. I read in another post you said something about being aided to 60db in the higher frequencies(2000Hz?) with HAs. Since we both have 115-120db loss at 2000Hz, it should be reasonable I can improve from 80db aided to 60db aided.

Also im having such poor aided scores above 500Hz, I feel there's not enough gain, that too will be tested, probably with a 2cc simulator when I visit an audiologist. I know ill never hear frequencies where I have an NR on my audiogram. But I definately can hear 2000Hz. Anyway waiting for Overthepond's reply to the above post(#62) addressed to her
 
deafdude1 said:
Hey have not gotten a reply from you, maybe you didn't find my reply hidden in all the other replies. Your HA aided audiogram was similar to mine and your answers could shed some light on my own problems.
So you are aware I am from UK, we have different time zones, i was at work all day when you wanted my answers via here and then couple of hours later through my PM
I'll answer to my best since i don't have much of answers, I am not techincal, I don't go bother my audi with questions all the time also i had so many different audi all my life, they just gave me what they thought is best for me. In 2000 (after 21 years on Phonak analouge) My widex was given to me on sponsorship from top hearing clinic in London. I was one of the first as profound deaf to get a digital HA. When i recieved my CI I learnt alot more about my deafness, attended to alot of mappings to adjust my CI

I had the widex senso p18+ and it was great back in 1998 when I got it. Before that I had analog HAs and I noticed an improvement with the digital. I kept those till 2008 when I got my Phonak Naidas. I did try a different HA in 2005 but the audie(not the same one who fitted me with the Naidias) could not program it to be any better than my old widex, he still insisted on selling it to me which made him mad when I refused to try it more than 10 minutes. Um I know my ears and if he can't program it to improve in 10 min, it won't change in 30 days.

Ive had the same, some audiologists thought a CI might work better for me, others said I have too much residual hearing. One audie initially suggested I get a CI but later retracted his suggestion and said todays CI technology wouldn't be worth it over what I get with my best HAs which he fitted me with. He's an expert and ive emailed him a bunch of questions, including concerns why my gains are so poor above 500Hz. Hopefully ill get a response Monday afternoon, will keep you guys tuned.

How can a Widex from 2000 be stronger than the Oticon from 2008? Actually I was in the same boat when I tried a HA back in 2005 and it was the same as my Widex from 1998. My audie who sold me those Phonak Naidas told me that the audie I went to in 2005 didn't know how to program them correctly.

I don't know to be honest, they are made by different companies and have different chips whatever you call it. As for my poor aided above 1000hz is because i have absolute no hairs in the highs to support the sounds coming through like i said in my orginial post.

Was the aided scores you provided with two widex HAs? It says right HA, you also wore the left HA? I assume so otherwise youd have a NR above 1000Hz aided with just the right HA. 30, 45, 60, 80, 105 were your aided results. Did you have the Widex at max gain? If yes, did anyone explain why you scored so poorly above 500Hz like I am? I still have my old aided audiogram from 1998 and I scored around 30db at 250, 500Hz and around 50db at 1000Hz to 4000Hz. My hearing back then was 70db at 250Hz, 90db at 500Hz, 100 to 105db at 1000Hz to 6000Hz(flat audiogram from 1000Hz to 6000Hz) so I was getting the max possible gain. With my new HAs im getting less and when I try the old HAs, they are even worse now at all frequencies. Does an additional 10db hearing loss really correspond to an aided score of 30db worse? It makes no sense!

My widex was at its max as my ex-private Audi said. On some days i need to turn it up but only gave distorted sounds/feedbacks. I only wore one HA for 14 years due to severe tinntius in my left ear which improved when i had my CI. I started to wear HA again (granually wore them few weeks before my CI op then wore it as much as i can bear with it for 5 weeks until my activcation, It's quite quiet I don't like turning it up since it sounds distorted. That ear never had Digital HA at all. Current HA is Analouge (unitron)

So it was not maxed out when you got your aided audiogram? Also the speakers can really give 105db? Was your ear a few inches from speakers?My audie told me he maxed it 90%. I believe him because when I tried my old widex, I heard worse at every frequency. Can you explain distorted sound? My HAs list a distortion of only 1% to 2% on the technicial specs so I generally don't notice it. Thanks for your long post and your answers.
Speakers was in line with my ears (one on each side) about 8 feet. it was 65 db (normal everyday sounds).

Distorted sounds are like vibration to my ear drum enough to tickle it and still not beable to hear at all, i don't turn up any further since it would physically hurt my ear, gives me headaches.. whats the point of turning it up any further and not be able to hear it.
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Hope this helps,

Hear again Hope you can read this, my answers are in Bold. Please tell me if you can't ok.
 
LadySekhmet said:
Did you mean you want DeafDude to just put everything in one quote, instead of separating them into sections of quotes?

If so, basically he is responding to the entire post of Overthepond's a few posts back.
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It would be helpful if deafdude could either put his responses in bold or use the quote feature similar to the way I have in this post.

When there is no indication as to who said what, I end up reading the quoted material instead of being able to skip over it the way I can when using the standard quote feature on AD. If this feature is used, I can easily tell who said what. The same thing is true if he placed his responses in bold font since I can easily determine the difference between Charlotte's original post (regular text) and deafdude's (bold font)

When you can see, you're able to glance at the screen and visually jump from sentence to sentence. I obviously can't do that and need to read line by line.
 
Ok, this is very interesting. Your posts have helped alot. I had a few preliminary tests on my HA and as I suspected, transposition is NOT enabled. No wonder I heard nothing at the high frequencies, it wasn't transpositioning, that and my ears have no hair cells.

I still need to have the gain tested with a 2cc coupler at the audiologist's office but from the preliminary tests, no abnormally low gains were found at any frequencies, it is believed the gains are maxed out at all frequencies other than the lowest frequencies.

It is also suspected my audiogram may be inaccurate and someone from another forum pointed out I may have cochlear dead regions above 1000Hz, probably somewhere between 1000Hz and 1500Hz. Ive found some articles on this and will post it in another thread.

The strange, curious findings when I tested my aided hearing some more using my computer speakers and a tone generator are as follows:

1. Sounds at 1250Hz to 2500Hz can very faintly be heard or sensed from 2 feet max but they usually cut off after a couple seconds and I hear nothing but the computer fan(s) and the low frequency distortion emitting from the speakers. I of course also hear other environmental sounds such as when I rock my chair or click the mouse or keyboard.

2. I can hear a 1000Hz 100db SPL(measured 0.1 foot from speaker) sound quite easily from across the room(at 15 feet, SPL reduces to 56db at this distance) but changing the frequency to 1250Hz or above without changing the volume, I either hear nothing or hear something faint from a foot away. Since preliminary tests find no fault with my HAs other then no transposition, further testing of my HAs and for the matter, my ears is needed.

3. If I have cochlear dead regions between 1000-1500Hz, should I not be able to tell that 1500Hz sounds like "aaaiii" and that 2000Hz sounds like "eeeee" I did read that one of the symptoms is an apparant inability to tell pitch difference in cochlear dead regions. At 1250Hz to near 2000Hz, the pitch sounds almost the same, like "aaaiii" but the volume keeps dropping as I increase pitch. At near 2000Hz to 2500Hz the pitch sounds the same, like "eeeee" but the volume keeps reducing down to nothing. Of course I need to concentrate at 1250Hz and above as the sounds are very faint no matter how high I crank the volume.

4. My audiogram shows a nearly flat response extending from 1000Hz to 4000Hz, yet with my HAs in, I experience a rapidly decreasing volume as I go above 750Hz. I crank the speaker volume up so I can do a test by maxing out the SPL in my HAs. There appears to be enough SPL that I can hear sounds/tones loud and clear up to 1000Hz. Yet no fault was found with my HAs regarding gain and SPL. It seems that every 125Hz increase above 750Hz, the sound/tone is half as loud. 1250Hz becomes very faint to the point that the clicking sound of my mouse is much louder.

Thanks overthepond for your reply. What did tones above 1000Hz sound like, were they some sort of lower frequency distortion or did they actually sound like high frequency shrill "eeeee" sounds? Ive read that cochlear dead spots, the hairs away from the dead spots indirectly hear/sense sound. I am not experiencing the distortion problem you and some others are, but we both experience a possible cochlear dead region problem.
 
I don't know what 1000hz sounds like since when i have my hearing test it was done behind screen in a sound proof room so i cannot see my audi to ask her which freq it is, it's something i don't get too techincal about my deafness, I just accept it...

With my Ci i can tell the difference of the beeps tones (soft, med, high, quiet, loud,) it was nothing like my hearing test with HA/unaided, which were more of soft bumbling sounds at most tones which i can guess is the low frequency.
 
overthepond said:
I don't know what 1000hz sounds like since when i have my hearing test it was done behind screen in a sound proof room so i cannot see my audi to ask her which freq it is, it's something i don't get too techincal about my deafness, I just accept it...

With my Ci i can tell the difference of the beeps tones (soft, med, high, quiet, loud,) it was nothing like my hearing test with HA/unaided, which were more of soft bumbling sounds at most tones which i can guess is the low frequency.
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Then it's possible you were hearing low frequency distortion from the speakers, I hear the same and it's possible that's how my home aided test is so similar to yours. I will do further aided home tests and run more than one puretone together and see if it sounds the same as the distortion. I do know I hear nothing much above 1000Hz unless I crank the speakers way up. I also suspect it's one possibility why I responded at the high frequencies on my audiogram. I do remember when my audiologist played the high frequencies, it didn't sound right, didn't sound like a puretone and was more of a pulsing, clicking sound than a pure, continous sound.

Sounds 1500Hz and above sound scratchy and distorted to me, my dad confirmed that it's comming from the distortion in the speaker due to the volume being up to high. When I turn the volume down that I minimize the distortion, I don't hear the puretone sound. It could have been the same for you and explains why you heard sounds above 1000Hz when your audiogram showed NR above that. It's another interesting thing im learning :)
 
Deafdude home test do JACK all for you. It may give you some INSIGHT to your hearing loss but it is in no way accurate. I have never met someone so technical about your hearing loss. Did you ever sit to think maybe u can't hear above 500hz because your deaf?!
 
deafdude,

No two people hear the same. Charlotte's pre-CI hearing isn't the same as your current hearing.
 
I had a few preliminary tests on my HA and as I suspected, transposition is NOT enabled. No wonder I heard nothing at the high frequencies, it wasn't transpositioning, that and my ears have no hair cells.

This is what I was trying to tell you when I posted my CI audi's e-mail about how much different transposition aids sound compared to standard hearing aids.

No offense, but the fact that your hearing aid audi told you that the transposition feature on your aids was turned on when it wasn't was irresponsible of him. He should have checked your programming records to confirm this.
 
I heard from my CI audi today who said she will be sending my audiogram in the mail. As soon as I can find someone to read it to me, I will post the details here.
 
deafdude1 said:
Those are the aided scores I did using my speakers, a tone generator and a db SPL meter(60db to 126db range). I also used this Damping of sound level with distance - damping calculation distance calculator dB - sengpielaudio
to calculate SPL decreasing with distance. I had my dad listen to a 1500Hz puretone at 40db which he could easily hear from 15 feet that I could only barely hear from half a foot measured at 70db SPL. Note that I set the volume to 70db as measured with SPL meter and calculated the sound to be 40db at the 15 feet distance he stood from.

125Hz: 20db(45 gain)
250Hz: 15db(55 gain)
500Hz: 25db(65 gain)
750Hz: 40db(65 gain)
1000Hz: 50db(60 gain)
1500Hz: 70db(40 gain)
2000Hz: 80db(35 gain)

No response at 3000Hz and up. That surprised me since my hearing aids have enough SPL for 3000Hz. It could be possible my audie didn't program any gain above 2000Hz, that's one question ill be asking him. Im also wondering why my aided scores are so poor in the mid frequencies. I tried my old Widex Senso HAs and I hear even worse with them. My dad says my audie probably maxed the gains in the mids. I should be aided down to 40db at 1500Hz given the gain my HA is capable at that frequency! But then my old Widex Senso HAs scored even worse.

My only logical explanation is that the gains listed on the technicial documents is hyped, exaggerated or a best case example. But how does one explain that my gains at the low frequency is close to max specs but so far off in the mids and highs? I am not getting any feedback from my molds, there is no damage to my molds, tube or HAs and when I double check with my old HAs, results are even worse.

I know the test was done at home but I knew something was wrong even without testing. When playing my piano, the volume decreased drastically each ascending key I played. I couldn't hear the last 10 keys either. I have done many other online hearing tests and the results are repeatable and consistant on mine and other computers and speakers. I also don't seem to be getting the claimed max SPL either. Sounds above 1000Hz are very faint no matter how loud I crank up the volume. I do know that 10db above my treshold, I can easily hear a given sound. Such as give 100db HL at 500Hz and I easily hear that sound. It seems im only getting about 115db SPL at 1500Hz and 2000Hz. Im probably getting 15 to 20db less SPL at all frequencies but im not complaining at 1000Hz and below as I don't really need such high SPL and I wouldn't even want the max 142 SPL at 1000Hz since it probably will be painful and may damage my residual hearing. How much SPL max is safe? 120db? 125db? 130db? If SPL can be programmed(another thing to ask my audie) id ask him the max safe SPL and is it the same for all frequencies?

Naida V UP gain/SPL:

125Hz 65db/123db
250Hz 68db/126db
500Hz 72db/130db
750Hz 76db/136db
1000Hz 82db/142db
1500Hz 73db/130db
2000Hz 70db/130db
3000Hz 65db/128db
4000Hz 60db/119db

The above max gain and SPL as listed in my specification sheet for my type of HA. Thanks for reading the above, maybe youll have some good answers, especially you audiologists. Ill also ask my audiologist.
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1. HA specs are referenced in a 2cc coupler. They are also performed with all noise cancellation, wind reduction, ect turned off on the aids.

2. In order for someone to get a accurate measurement of what the aids are doing in your ears, Real Ear measurements are need to be performed.

3. Gain is a function of input for most modern hearing aids unless they are output limiting compression aids. Again, having a probe (real ear) in your ear canal when producing a 45dB tone would provide the most accurate results as to how much gain your hearing aid is providing across the frequency spectrum.
 
SteveAUD said:
1. HA specs are referenced in a 2cc coupler. They are also performed with all noise cancellation, wind reduction, ect turned off on the aids.

2. In order for someone to get a accurate measurement of what the aids are doing in your ears, Real Ear measurements are need to be performed.

3. Gain is a function of input for most modern hearing aids unless they are output limiting compression aids. Again, having a probe (real ear) in your ear canal when producing a 45dB tone would provide the most accurate results as to how much gain your hearing aid is providing across the frequency spectrum.
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Then I may need to have some or all of those features turned off. I probably have whistleblock that reduces the gain on the fly in some scinerios, I don't want to be hearing less! It may take a few programmings before I am happy with the final results. My audie only programmed them once and it's good so far but there's more I can benefit.

I guess the shape and depth of a person's ear canals can affect how much gain/spl he gets. Ill be satisfied getting close to manufactor maximum at any and all frequencies. Note my unaided/aided audiogram in my sig and note the poor aided score at 250Hz and at above 1000Hz. I am not expecting to hear 25db at mid frequencies but a 5-10db improvement should be possible.
 
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