Palm in or Palm out

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bjames492

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I'm studying to be an interpreter. I was told that when I sign the numbers that I should do palm in but i was taught to do palm out. What do you do? Which do you prefer to see?
 
Apparently you haven't had a class in numbers yet or you wouldn't ask the question. :)

If you are in an ITP, at some point you will need to take a class specifically in finger spelling and numbers.

In the meantime, there is no one answer to your question. Different kinds of numbers are signed different ways. That is, ordinal and cardinal numbers, score numbers, ages, money, addresses, phone numbers, awards (first place, second place, etc.), fractions and percentages, birth order, lists, etc.

If you're just counting out numbers, 0-10 are palm out. 11-15 are palm in. 16-19, palm in-out. For the rest of the numbers, they are palm out except for 21 and the thousands/millions.

It's not just a "preference." They are grammatical and linguistic rules.

You really have to be solid in ASL before you begin the interpreting process.
 
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Thanks Reba ... You were far more patient with that then I was!!

(I couldn't figure the whole "preference" part ... )
 
Bjames, where are you taking your ASL classes? Is it an ITP?

Edit:

Never mind. I looked it up. You're taking classes from Troy online.

You aren't yet in the ITP program. You have to pass the ASL competency interview before you can be accepted into the ITP.

You posted that you're in level 3 of ASL. Really, you should have learned how to sign at least some of the kinds of numbers during level 1. Also, your instructor/s should emphasized all along that ASL is a language with grammatical structure. It isn't random stuff.

However, I'm glad that you're asking questions so that we can help you out.
 
Reba, not disagreeing with you but wanted to let you know that the book I'm using for my ASL class (through our School for the Deaf) shows cardinal #'s as palm in for 1 to 5.
It's the Signing Naturally book.
 
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LoveBlue said:
Reba, not disagreeing with you but wanted to let you know that the book I'm using for my ASL class (through our School for the Deaf) shows cardinal #'s as palm in for 1 to 5.
It's the Signing Naturally book.
Click to expand...

When reading the books, make sure to read if the pictures are shown "first person" (how you see yourself signing) or I it's how you'd observe someone signing to you.

There are/can be exceptions - but they are very specific (such as password etc with long random letter& number combinations).
 
A bit more, simplified.

Cardinal Numbers, Ordinal Numbers and Telling the Time With Sign Language Numbers

It has been estimated that there are twenty-seven different ways of employing sign language numbers depending on the context. Using numbers when conveying the passage of time in weeks for example, will use different rules to talking about the number of people. When you are signing the time, for example, the numbers face the person being addressed whether you’re signing one through five or six through nine.

Sign Language Numbers – Cardinal Numbers

The signing of the cardinal numbers one through five in ASL is not done with the palm facing out. Instead, the cardinal numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 should be signed with the palm towards the signer. Meanwhile, the cardinal numbers 6 through 9 should be produced with the palm turned to face the person being addressed. The numbers of eleven through fifteen and sixteen through nineteen have similar rules. This is to prevent confusion, as the person who’s watching needs to know what’s going on with your hands so that there’s no mistaking that there are nine apples, for example, instead of three!

Note that the signs for numbers are not simply three fingers that indicate “three”. The shape of the hand and the fingers that you use are also essential to convey meaning. You can learn to sign each number through viewing diagrams that can be readily found in various sources – there are plenty of online sources to find diagrams containing numbers in ASL.

Plurality is conveyed through signing the object first –say, apple – and then signing the quantity of objects. There is no need to add an s to the item(s) as in English.

Signing tens and hundreds is easy to master once you have an idea of the numbers one through to twenty. Decade numbers such as 30, 40 and 50 are signed by first showing the first number (3, 4, 5) and following it with the sign for the number 0. Hundreds are signed in a similar way.

Sign language numbers – Ordinal numbers

Cardinal numbers will indicate quantity. Ordinal numbers, meanwhile, will show orderly placement. So if you got first prize in a literary competition, you will use the ordinal sign for first to indicate this. To sign an ordinal number in ASL, you must twist your wrist inward while you are in the process of signing the relevant number.

Sign language numbers – Telling the time

Indicating numbers is context sensitive in sign language, and telling someone the time is just one of the many exceptions. You first let your dominant (active) index finger touch your other wrist to indicate where you would wear a watch. You then use your active hand to sign the correct hour with your palm facing the person you’re signing to, regardless of whether it’s one through five or six through nine, or ten through twelve. Addresses and phone numbers are signed the same way. As has been explained, the use of numbers in different situations is reliant on the context in which they are used. Many of these will only be learned on a case by case basis, although it’s easy enough to learn them all once you have the basics.
Click to expand...

Cardinal Numbers, Ordinal Numbers and Telling the Time With Sign Language Numbers | Free Sign Language Help
 
Good information Bott, but makes my brain hurt???LOL
 
Bottesini said:
A bit more, simplified.
Click to expand...
Interesting but I have a couple comments/questions.

"... This is to prevent confusion, as the person who’s watching needs to know what’s going on with your hands so that there’s no mistaking that there are nine apples, for example, instead of three!"

I'm trying to figure out how a nine could be confused with a three. :confused:


"... Decade numbers such as 30, 40 and 50 are signed by first showing the first number (3, 4, 5) and following it with the sign for the number 0. Hundreds are signed in a similar way."

Hundreds are not signed in a similar way to decade numbers. It's not 7-0-0 but 7-C.
 
Reba said:
Interesting but I have a couple comments/questions.

"... This is to prevent confusion, as the person who’s watching needs to know what’s going on with your hands so that there’s no mistaking that there are nine apples, for example, instead of three!"

I'm trying to figure out how a nine could be confused with a three. :confused:


"... Decade numbers such as 30, 40 and 50 are signed by first showing the first number (3, 4, 5) and following it with the sign for the number 0. Hundreds are signed in a similar way."

Hundreds are not signed in a similar way to decade numbers. It's not 7-0-0 but 7-C.
Click to expand...
Don't you think it's a typo and they flipped the 6 upside down to confuse with 9 when writing it out?
 
Reba said:
Interesting but I have a couple comments/questions.

"... This is to prevent confusion, as the person who’s watching needs to know what’s going on with your hands so that there’s no mistaking that there are nine apples, for example, instead of three!"

I'm trying to figure out how a nine could be confused with a three. :confused:
Click to expand...

The key thing to look at is "for example" (above in bold) -- showing the difference by choosing between the set of cardinal numbers 1-5 ("for example, instead of 3") and the set of cardinal numbers 6-9. IMO, "3" was just an example chosen from the set 1-5, and not meant to look like 9.
 
Bottesini said:
Don't you think it's a typo and they flipped the 6 upside down to confuse with 9 when writing it out?
Click to expand...
But an ASL three doesn't look like an ASL six either.
 
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AlleyCat said:
The key thing to look at is "for example" (above in bold) -- showing the difference by choosing between the set of cardinal numbers 1-5 ("for example, instead of 3") and the set of cardinal numbers 6-9. IMO, "3" was just an example chosen from the set 1-5, and not meant to look like 9.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I can't think of any ASL numbers that could be confused with each other by simply changing the palm orientation. :hmm:

Now, I can see how a six might be confused with a W, or a two with a V, or a nine with an F, or a zero with an O but no number confusion. :dunno:
 
Reba said:
But a three doesn't look like a six either.
Click to expand...

If you are dyslexic, Arabic numbers 6 and 9 look exactly alike. If they thought in that pattern, it is very likely to be written down like that. Of course the signed numbers dont look alike. But I think AlleyCat's explanation far more plausible.
 
Bottesini said:
If you are dyslexic, Arabic numbers 6 and 9 look exactly alike. If they thought in that pattern, it is very likely to be written down like that.
Click to expand...
I understand that.

Of course the signed numbers dont look alike. But I think AlleyCat's explanation far more plausible.
Click to expand...
But even using any number combinations, I can't think of any pair of numbers that could be confused.
 
Reba said:
If you're just counting out numbers, 0-10 are palm out. 11-15 are palm in. 16-19, palm in-out. For the rest of the numbers, they are palm out except for 21 and the thousands/millions.
Click to expand...
I was taught 1-5 palm in, 6-10 palm out, 11-15 palm in, and then it's more or less palm out from there.

Apparently more and more signs are being modified to palm out to make them easier to read on video chat systems, so it's common these days to see 1-10 palm out (and even days of the week signs).

Reba said:
Interesting but I have a couple comments/questions.

"... This is to prevent confusion, as the person who’s watching needs to know what’s going on with your hands so that there’s no mistaking that there are nine apples, for example, instead of three!"

I'm trying to figure out how a nine could be confused with a three. :confused:
Click to expand...
9 and 3 both have three fingers pointing up, so it's plausible that someone could confuse them if they were signed with the same palm orientation.
 
Anij said:
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When reading the books, make sure to read if the pictures are shown "first person" (how you see yourself signing) or I it's how you'd observe someone signing to you.

There are/can be exceptions - but they are very specific (such as password etc with long random letter& number combinations).
Click to expand...

Actually the book says "palm in" in addition to showing the pictures. Since this is in the Step 1 class, I'm sure they're showing us how we would do the signs. The pictures are from the DVD that comes with the book. The person is facing us. And I'm sure that's how the teachers taught us...palm in for 0-5.
 
Mountain Man said:
I was taught 1-5 palm in, 6-10 palm out, 11-15 palm in, and then it's more or less palm out from there.

Apparently more and more signs are being modified to palm out to make them easier to read on video chat systems, so it's common these days to see 1-10 palm out (and even days of the week signs).


9 and 3 both have three fingers pointing up, so it's plausible that someone could confuse them if they were signed with the same palm orientation.
Click to expand...

But 3 is the thumb and the next two fingers. 9 & 6 would show 3 fingers, not the thumb.
 
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