Oral school

[dreama]

I think that the more infants that are introduced to baby signs the better and this is particularly true for those who happen to be deaf.

I feel I could have acheived a lot more if I had been introduced to sign language as a young child but who would have even thought of introducing a child with such a mild hearing loss? That's why I consider sign a basic staple like reading and writing. Not an added extra.
I think Deaf children need a full set of tools. We don't need any removing to make us seem more 'normal'.

 

[deafdyke]

rick, we don't deny that there are some kids who really thrive orally.

i.e. "depending on a failing system" for as I just demonstrated--you are wrong.

Ancedote doesn't equate to hard data. I don't think you quite realize that there have ALWAYS been oral sucesses like your daughter.
That doesn't mean they represent the majority.
I mean your daughter didn't even have resource room assistance or social issues in the mainstream right? Good for her! However, that was the way it worked out. I really do think that if your daughter had experianced significent educational or social issues in the mainstream, you'd be seeing things more from our point of view. It's awesome that your daughter did so well in a typical mainstream classroom, with minimal accomondations.....but it's not like that for every dhh kid. Heck, social issues seem to be a very common bugaboo for dhh kids in general. I know that those tend to be on the table at the mainstream conference and the Clarke Mainstream News etc.
Besides, think of it this way. Why is it that we educate oral dhh kids by exclusively focusing on their weakest area of acheivement? We don't educate a kid who's gifted in English but defiencent in math, by exclusively focusing on their math defineciey do we?

 

[kokonut]

rick, we don't deny that there are some kids who really thrive orally.
Ancedote doesn't equate to hard data. I don't think you quite realize that there have ALWAYS been oral sucesses like your daughter.
That doesn't mean they represent the majority.
I mean your daughter didn't even have resource room assistance or social issues in the mainstream right? Good for her! However, that was the way it worked out. I really do think that if your daughter had experianced significent educational or social issues in the mainstream, you'd be seeing things more from our point of view. It's awesome that your daughter did so well in a typical mainstream classroom, with minimal accomondations.....but it's not like that for every dhh kid. Heck, social issues seem to be a very common bugaboo for dhh kids in general. I know that those tend to be on the table at the mainstream conference and the Clarke Mainstream News etc.
Besides, think of it this way. Why is it that we educate oral dhh kids by exclusively focusing on their weakest area of acheivement? We don't educate a kid who's gifted in English but defiencent in math, by exclusively focusing on their math defineciey do we?

The problem is that today we have technology that gives oral and aural training a much more and better shot on success. What you stated may be quite true 20 years ago or so but as technology continues to improve you have more choices. The key has always been early intervention and complete involvement. Plus laws to ensure that these potential successes continue such as mainstreamed schools. Oral training or to grow up "oral" doesn't mean you lose out socially. It's wrong to generalize that "orals" are introverts and do not do well socially. Again, there is always a time and place for sign language but it is not always the solution, not when you have technology on your side, parental involvement, mainstreamed schools and laws. There are indeed gray areas.

Here below is a 23 minute video that addresses language, having friends, sports, communication, speaking skills and such.
Dreams made real

 

[doubletrouble]

The problem is that today we have technology that gives oral and aural training a much more and better shot on success. What you stated may be quite true 20 years ago or so but as technology continues to improve you have more choices. The key has always been early intervention and complete involvement. Plus laws to ensure that these potential successes continue such as mainstreamed schools. Oral training or to grow up "oral" doesn't mean you lose out socially. It's wrong to generalize that "orals" are introverts and do not do well socially. Again, there is always a time and place for sign language but it is not always the solution, not when you have technology on your side, parental involvement, mainstreamed schools and laws. There are indeed gray areas.

Here below is a 23 minute video that addresses language, having friends, sports, communication, speaking skills and such.
Dreams made real

Great post. For the record, I have a daughter who is in 9th grade in high school. She does not have a hearing loss, and I have seen and experienced many social issues with her. Social issues not only apply to deaf children- but to children everywhere. Albeit that some deaf children may have more- because of their deafness- but it's not the reason why they have social issues. It's a part of growing up. In my opinion, children do well if they are comfortable within themselves (even though it's a difficult time). My son who is deaf and wears implants, isn't afraid of going up to people, starting conversations, and isn't embarassed as to who he is. I keep seeing the same thread going round and round, that implanted kids that do well socially are the exception not the rule and I don't see it that way. My son is just like any of his peers- except he cannot hear. He also, was taught ASL from an early age (as soon as we found out he was deaf, we started to sign to him) and now, he's dropped all the signs. Of course, he's better at it receptively than expressive, but he still can have a conversation with his Deaf aunts and cousins. We did sign to him, not tell him to stop, and yet- he stopped on his own. As I recall (and I could be wrong) but Lotte's dad used to say the same for his daughter. Once the vocabulary and language was in place, the signs dropped.

 

[kokonut]

In this video (ask someone who can hear and ask his/her opinion) and listen and watch this videa and see which of the three kids is a deaf child. Only one of the three in this video is a deaf student while the other two are hearing students. This deaf child wears bi-lateral cochlear implants. Maybe you can find out by their demeanor? Their actions? Or by their voices? Is there a "deaf voice" you can detect?
http://www.tmos.org/Kelsi MPEG.mpg

 

[Lissa]

you can see the girl in blue's cochlear implants

 

[kokonut]

Great post. For the record, I have a daughter who is in 9th grade in high school. She does not have a hearing loss, and I have seen and experienced many social issues with her. Social issues not only apply to deaf children- but to children everywhere. Albeit that some deaf children may have more- because of their deafness- but it's not the reason why they have social issues. It's a part of growing up. In my opinion, children do well if they are comfortable within themselves (even though it's a difficult time). My son who is deaf and wears implants, isn't afraid of going up to people, starting conversations, and isn't embarassed as to who he is. I keep seeing the same thread going round and round, that implanted kids that do well socially are the exception not the rule and I don't see it that way. My son is just like any of his peers- except he cannot hear. He also, was taught ASL from an early age (as soon as we found out he was deaf, we started to sign to him) and now, he's dropped all the signs. Of course, he's better at it receptively than expressive, but he still can have a conversation with his Deaf aunts and cousins. We did sign to him, not tell him to stop, and yet- he stopped on his own. As I recall (and I could be wrong) but Lotte's dad used to say the same for his daughter. Once the vocabulary and language was in place, the signs dropped.

Hmm, a deaf child choosing to drop ASL. Wonder how Deaf people will react to that notion.

When I was in middle school (that was over 30 years ago) I did a session in class to teach to my peers (and teacher) about my hearing loss, my BTE hearing aid in my right ear and what it is like to have a hearing loss. I wasn't afraid to come up to people and speak with them. My hearing loss didn't stop me from being social or take up soccer, baseball, and wrestling and have friends. I had a few deaf/hh friends even in high school I didn't have social problems. I am more selective in who I choose to be friends with rather than be a social nut. So, it's nice to have lots of hearing and deaf/hh friends at the same time.

 

[Lissa]

my parents used to sign to me when i was a lot younger but as soon i had enough vocabulary and language so my parents could understand me i dropped the signs. a few months ago my mum asked me why didnt i sign at home, she even asked me if i wanted her to sign, n i said no because i felt comfortable in just talking to my family, i do occassionally sign when i feel like it

 

[kokonut]

you can see the girl in blue's cochlear implants

Are you sure?

Listen (or have someone listen for you) to the voice and see if you can pick out the differences.

 

[jillio]

The problem is that today we have technology that gives oral and aural training a much more and better shot on success. What you stated may be quite true 20 years ago or so but as technology continues to improve you have more choices. The key has always been early intervention and complete involvement. Plus laws to ensure that these potential successes continue such as mainstreamed schools. Oral training or to grow up "oral" doesn't mean you lose out socially. It's wrong to generalize that "orals" are introverts and do not do well socially. Again, there is always a time and place for sign language but it is not always the solution, not when you have technology on your side, parental involvement, mainstreamed schools and laws. There are indeed gray areas.

Here below is a 23 minute video that addresses language, having friends, sports, communication, speaking skills and such.
Dreams made real

They have been saying that since the ear trumpet was invented. Early intervention and complete involvement is not dependent upon technology.

It has been supported through empirical research that oral deaf in a mainstreamed environment experience significant psycho-social difficulties when compared to both hearing peers, and peers in a deaf school environment. This research even includes those students that have the latest technology. The results are the same.

In any group, there are outliers. That is nothing new under the sun. However, they are determined to be, and are called "outliers" for very obvious reasons.

 

[Lighthouse77]

the girl with the blue shirt definitely has a deaf tone that I am familiar with. especially when she say family or anything with more than one syllable (maybe exposure to deaf community, my son talks like that) . The middle is too quiet.

 

[jillio]

you can see the girl in blue's cochlear implants

Not only that, if you watch her, you will see that she is much more visually aware than the other two. She is constantly checking out her environment. After all, communication is not just how well a child speaks.:roll:

And, one child speaking does not a majority make, nor does it support anything. Of interest would be psycho social assessments, academic assessments, and language usage assessments. Then we will know exactly what her functioning is. It can't be determined from simply watching a video of her speaking. But many people make that mistake and think it does.

 

[jillio]

the girl with the blue shirt definitely has a deaf tone that I am familiar with. especially when she say family or anything with more than one syllable (maybe exposure to deaf community, my son talks like that) . The middle is too quiet.

Yep, she separates her syllables. They do not flow.

Everyone also needs to keep in mind that this video was produced for Tucker Maxon as an advertisement for their oral school. The intent was to imply that all of their students have the same degree of fluency with spoken language as does the child in the video. You tell me, did they use the average child in the video, or the shining star? Can't be used as support for anything. It is nothing more than a video of 3cute little girls in an isolated and structured situation that in no way resembles classroom and day to day interaction.

 

[Lighthouse77]

my parents used to sign to me when i was a lot younger but as soon i had enough vocabulary and language so my parents could understand me i dropped the signs. a few months ago my mum asked me why didnt i sign at home, she even asked me if i wanted her to sign, n i said no because i felt comfortable in just talking to my family, i do occassionally sign when i feel like it

but you did needed it when you didn't have enough vocabulary, right? It's ok not to use it.. it is the fact that you can use it when you need it the most.

 

[Lighthouse77]

I'm wonder if the middle is deaf too. I have met deaf people who are very quiet like me.. people tell me to speak up because I talk too softly sometimes (but other times, I talk too loud).

 

[Lissa]

Yes I tend to talk quietly as I dont really like to talk in front of people I dont know. I am a shy person anyway

 

[Daredevel7]

In this video (ask someone who can hear and ask his/her opinion) and listen and watch this videa and see which of the three kids is a deaf child. Only one of the three in this video is a deaf student while the other two are hearing students. This deaf child wears bi-lateral cochlear implants. Maybe you can find out by their demeanor? Their actions? Or by their voices? Is there a "deaf voice" you can detect?
http://www.tmos.org/Kelsi MPEG.mpg

I am not too crazy about this video. Most of you know I was raised orally and am perfectly fine with it, but.... this video implies that if you don't sound or look JUST like a hearing person, that is something to be disappointed about.

One of the things several people ask me, upon hearing my news about getting the CI, is "Will it make you speak better?" And I just respond with "Oh, you can't understand me then?" and they respond "No, I can understand you, but to be honest, you do have some accent." and I say "Well, it may be a priority to you, but I'd prefer worrying about hearing more rather than speaking perfectly." That usually shuts them up.

They just don't know better. But stuff like video above seems to add fuel to the fire.

 

[jillio]

I am not too crazy about this video. Most of you know I was raised orally and am perfectly fine with it, but.... this video implies that if you don't sound or look JUST like a hearing person, that is something to be disappointed about.

One of the things several people ask me, upon hearing my news about getting the CI, is "Will it make you speak better?" And I just respond with "Oh, you can't understand me then?" and they respond "No, I can understand you, but to be honest, you do have some accent." and I say "Well, it may be a priority to you, but I'd prefer worrying about hearing more rather than speaking better." That usually shuts them up.

They just don't know better. But stuff like video above seems to add fuel to the fire.

Gotta agree with you there, DD.

 

[Jiro]

I am not too crazy about this video. Most of you know I was raised orally and am perfectly fine with it, but.... this video implies that if you don't sound or look JUST like a hearing person, that is something to be disappointed about.

One of the things several people ask me, upon hearing my news about getting the CI, is "Will it make you speak better?" And I just respond with "Oh, you can't understand me then?" and they respond "No, I can understand you, but to be honest, you do have some accent." and I say "Well, it may be a priority to you, but I'd prefer worrying about hearing more rather than speaking perfectly." That usually shuts them up.

They just don't know better. But stuff like video above seems to add fuel to the fire.

isn't it frustrating when they don't realize that the deaf accent is no different from foreign accent? I mean.... come on... have they ever try to talk with Indian immigrants? Chinese immigrants?

 

[horselover61]

I was in oral school for the deaf and of course we get abused by the nuns if we dont speak in the right way. I hate oral school.

I hope someday there is a way that deaf or HOH have a total communication so that way they can communication with anyone.