oral death program question

TODtobe:

OK. I have been a TOD for five years, and I am Deaf. I was mainstreamed, but attended the same school with a HOH brother, a Deaf best friend, and two other Deaf students. I was raised with PSE and ASL, and my mother did attend a college 45 mins from home to take ASL classes when I was very young. I don't know about your background, but I have seen a lot of things about the "wonderful" technology and how well Deaf people do with or without them.

1. HAs serve to amplify, that's it. Depending on the way the audiogram looks for a given person, there are gaps and smooshes in how sounds are perceived. HAs (and CIs) in no way are comparable to glasses, where glasses make everything clear and HAs don't. With HAs and CIs, listening to someone speak is a lot like perceiving a foreign language. We may understand a few words here and there, but the entire conversation? Over our heads. There will always be words that get mistaken for others. Sweat pants vs dress pants, Sally vs Silas, marbles vs war boots, Nazi score cards vs Yahzee score cards, etc. These are the mishearings I experienced myself.

CIs are no better, either. Because there are separate electrodes on a wire (I believe the most there can be is 22 or 24 these days, I think), neighboring frequencies will get smooshed together and there are gaps in frequencies. For an invasive, elective surgery, what failure rate is acceptable? Look up CDC's medical device failure reports database, and there's quite a long list of reports regarding CIs considering the small size of the implanted population in the US.

Whatever hearing technology you look at, it's *not* a miracle and it's nowhere near perfect. If you have never heard what a CI-aided speech would sound like, Google for sound files for CI users. There's some videos on Youtube with sound stimulations.

No deaf or Deaf person *ever* will have 100%, or even 80%, speech comprehension just by listening. Speechreading is a bit more effective than stand-alone listening.

2. Whether a child will succeed or fail depends on the *entire* system. I have seen implanted and aided and nonaided children fail because their families provided no support nor would learn ASL for communication at home. They failed also because they had nobody to interact with that involves easy communication.

3. If you truly think that ASL has never been taken away from a Deaf child, you are dead wrong. Get out there and interact with more Deaf people. Don't forget that a Deaf child's parents don't have much exposure to ASL themselves for various reasons. Some of these parents have also been told (lied to, even) that ASL is evil and would cause language delays.

4. Even if a Deaf child manages to listen fairly well, that kid will always be isolated. It's hard to listen in on a group conversation, and using the phone is an arduous chore. When there are more Deaf children in the same place, they have an easier time communicating. Listening is exhausting, it will never come naturally.

5. Oral students seem to be "successful" only because their oral schools kick out the underperforming students. You won't hear an oral school admin admit this, but I have seen this first and I have heard about this from a Deaf man who works with the state department of education. They will always continue to need services. It's pretty rare to see an implanted person watch movies or the news without the captions, and it gets rather exhausting for the implanted student to just listen to the teachers and peers while processing all the speech sounds.

6. "English can be acquired as a first language" Depends on if you are talking about *spoken* English or *written* English. Written English is definitely possible to acquire early on, since it's all visual. Spoken English is riddled with so many issues. Speaking of written English, literacy skills depend on early exposure and how well content is conveyed to the child from a teacher or parent. Profoundly and severely Deaf children don't do well with acquiring spoken English just by hearing. Children are actually adept at adapting, so some do pick up on speech reading and some become experts at filling in the gaps with context clues.
 
Be careful TODtobe! As a veteran TOD (nearly 20 years) I can tell you that not all implants work well for all kids and not all kids tolerate the amplification of being implanted. What you learn at school is narrow compared to real life. I have always thought of lip reading as a natural talent. Certainly, for some kiddos we cue speech to aid in total communication but I think you can't assume who will be successful and who won't. :roll:

And they were saying the exact same stuff about hearing aids back in the day....I'd be very skeptical....heck,I have a friend who has experianced and been involved in Deaf Ed for about 50 years....She says it's the same stuff,different day. She actually told me about HOH kids who transfered into MSSD from public school. SHE thought that they didn't really belong there....Guess what? They stayed and became bilingal AND became REALLY high acheivers....Like at public school,they would have been on the outskirts of society....but at deaf school/dhh program,they're leaders, editors, club president...they're INVOLVED AND they're in an 100% accessbible enviorment,so they get better grades....they also improve with social skills (did you know social skills are incredbily important with life sucess such as getting a job?)
 
I am confused about oral death programs. Lip reading is never taught correct? is this something you just learn? I know my 9 year old can read lips but he isnt that great at it and if they are insisting on main streaming him and will not teach asl shouldnt someone offer him some tips on how to get better at it??

not being mean but I am so confused??!!

Lipreading is part of speechreading. To be honest, we are not looking at just the lips, but the whole face, expressions, body language, and so on to make a more complete phrase for comprehension. Lipreading alone is a crap shoot.

If your district refuses to incorporate ASL and let him go to where you want him to be, then you need to stand up and assert your rights. You have the right to put what you want on his IEP, and if you want ASL, the district should oblige. Many districts try to avoid providing services to save money. If they try to present you with an IEP you don't like, DON'T sign it. You have the right not to accept what your district offers. Who is on the IEP team? Is there a Teacher of the Deaf present on the IEP team? If not, tell the district to hire one.

What state do you live in? You can contact the state's department of education to help you with the process and teach you about your rights as a parent of a Deaf child. If you name your state, someone here might help point you to a group or resource for your situation.
 
TODtobe:

OK. I have been a TOD for five years, and I am Deaf. I was mainstreamed, but attended the same school with a HOH brother, a Deaf best friend, and two other Deaf students. I was raised with PSE and ASL, and my mother did attend a college 45 mins from home to take ASL classes when I was very young. I don't know about your background, but I have seen a lot of things about the "wonderful" technology and how well Deaf people do with or without them.

1. HAs serve to amplify, that's it. Depending on the way the audiogram looks for a given person, there are gaps and smooshes in how sounds are perceived. HAs (and CIs) in no way are comparable to glasses, where glasses make everything clear and HAs don't. With HAs and CIs, listening to someone speak is a lot like perceiving a foreign language. We may understand a few words here and there, but the entire conversation? Over our heads. There will always be words that get mistaken for others. Sweat pants vs dress pants, Sally vs Silas, marbles vs war boots, Nazi score cards vs Yahzee score cards, etc. These are the mishearings I experienced myself.

CIs are no better, either. Because there are separate electrodes on a wire (I believe the most there can be is 22 or 24 these days, I think), neighboring frequencies will get smooshed together and there are gaps in frequencies. For an invasive, elective surgery, what failure rate is acceptable? Look up CDC's medical device failure reports database, and there's quite a long list of reports regarding CIs considering the small size of the implanted population in the US.

Whatever hearing technology you look at, it's *not* a miracle and it's nowhere near perfect. If you have never heard what a CI-aided speech would sound like, Google for sound files for CI users. There's some videos on Youtube with sound stimulations.

No deaf or Deaf person *ever* will have 100%, or even 80%, speech comprehension just by listening. Speechreading is a bit more effective than stand-alone listening.

2. Whether a child will succeed or fail depends on the *entire* system. I have seen implanted and aided and nonaided children fail because their families provided no support nor would learn ASL for communication at home. They failed also because they had nobody to interact with that involves easy communication.

3. If you truly think that ASL has never been taken away from a Deaf child, you are dead wrong. Get out there and interact with more Deaf people. Don't forget that a Deaf child's parents don't have much exposure to ASL themselves for various reasons. Some of these parents have also been told (lied to, even) that ASL is evil and would cause language delays.

4. Even if a Deaf child manages to listen fairly well, that kid will always be isolated. It's hard to listen in on a group conversation, and using the phone is an arduous chore. When there are more Deaf children in the same place, they have an easier time communicating. Listening is exhausting, it will never come naturally.

5. Oral students seem to be "successful" only because their oral schools kick out the underperforming students. You won't hear an oral school admin admit this, but I have seen this first and I have heard about this from a Deaf man who works with the state department of education. They will always continue to need services. It's pretty rare to see an implanted person watch movies or the news without the captions, and it gets rather exhausting for the implanted student to just listen to the teachers and peers while processing all the speech sounds.

6. "English can be acquired as a first language" Depends on if you are talking about *spoken* English or *written* English. Written English is definitely possible to acquire early on, since it's all visual. Spoken English is riddled with so many issues. Speaking of written English, literacy skills depend on early exposure and how well content is conveyed to the child from a teacher or parent. Profoundly and severely Deaf children don't do well with acquiring spoken English just by hearing. Children are actually adept at adapting, so some do pick up on speech reading and some become experts at filling in the gaps with context clues.

First, you are factually incorrect in thinking that deaf children with CIs do not get greater than 80% speech understanding. The audiologists in the schools do speech understanding testing, and I have the results in front of me. Many of the kids are in the high 90's, none are below 80%.

Also, all private oral schools admit that they refer students who will be unsuccessful using spokn language only to other services. And that is a good thing. It would be abusive to leave a child in a setting in which they can not access language and communication. A public school however cannot. They can recommend, but in the end, the parent can refuse a placement change.

Also, if you do not think that deaf children can acquire spoken English through listening, you are not looking in the right places. Do you work in early intervention? Have you been with kids that young who are acquiring language naturally?
 
"Most children?" Of what demographic?

I'm sorry, you are right, this was very vague. Most children who are implanted before age three and enrolled in a program that emphasized spoken language. That is the demographic I am working with most of the time.
 
First, you are factually incorrect in thinking that deaf children with CIs do not get greater than 80% speech understanding. The audiologists in the schools do speech understanding testing, and I have the results in front of me. Many of the kids are in the high 90's, none are below...
What about field testing? How much speech do they understand at a ball game, in an industrial environment, active college classroom, day care toddler group, noisy restaurant, etc.?

Every one of the CI users that I have met, and ones that I have read their interviews, has said that one-on-one in a quiet environment with a familiar speaker, they do fine. Anything else, not very successful.

Even Rush Limbaugh, who is late-deafened and bilaterally implanted, says that the sounds are not natural and not as clear as before he lost his hearing. In non-quiet environments he misses a lot of the conversation. He says he depends a lot on his memory of sounds to fill in the gaps of comprehension. What do kids with no memory of sounds do?
 
What about field testing? How much speech do they understand at a ball game, in an industrial environment, active college classroom, day care toddler group, noisy restaurant, etc.?

Every one of the CI users that I have met, and ones that I have read their interviews, has said that one-on-one in a quiet environment with a familiar speaker, they do fine. Anything else, not very successful.

Even Rush Limbaugh, who is late-deafened and bilaterally implanted, says that the sounds are not natural and not as clear as before he lost his hearing. In non-quiet environments he misses a lot of the conversation. He says he depends a lot on his memory of sounds to fill in the gaps of comprehension. What do kids with no memory of sounds do?

You make a very good point. Soundbooth testing is different from other enviroments. The iteneriant teacher I shadowed said that sometimes she will do testing in the classroom to show the need for an FM system or in the cafeteria to help teachers understand why some accomodations are needed in the IEP.
 
You make a very good point. Soundbooth testing is different from other enviroments. The iteneriant teacher I shadowed said that sometimes she will do testing in the classroom to show the need for an FM system or in the cafeteria to help teachers understand why some accomodations are needed in the IEP.

In the cafeteria? It sounds like teachers must be with oral Deaf students all the time, even eating lunch with them everyday?? :hmm:
 
You make a very good point. Soundbooth testing is different from other enviroments. The iteneriant teacher I shadowed said that sometimes she will do testing in the classroom to show the need for an FM system or in the cafeteria to help teachers understand why some accomodations are needed in the IEP.

In the cafeteria? It sounds like teachers must be with oral Deaf students all the time, even eating lunch with them everyday?? :hmm:

Sometimes is not everyday.
 
Only in a perfect world and in an academic setting that is not complex. What happens when they hit 4th grade?
 
I question to you? you profound deaf, right did you doesn't know how aware situation limit.

I am surprised....

you should be search find more reading more thread.

seems not aware not enough more information.
 
I don't think an hour a week playing games with a therapist is "intensive therapy" that makes language acquisition no longer natural.

Oh, my!! Speech therapy for a child who has been implanted can very from once DAILY to TWICE daily. My cousin, who was implanted early, saw an SLP daily as a baby/youngster and then during the school years saw the school SLP and had separate therapy after school.

Listen, TODtobe...we need TODs very badly, but not this bad. You have to leave all ego at the door when working with Deaf children and their families. This is not your road to walk. The vision, the journey, is the family's and the child's...... your job is to support, guide, advocate, love and educate your students. Having an opinion is one thing, but you have extreme biases that will be unfair to your families. I wish you could realize just how diverse a typical caseload can be. I would encourage you to think about a different career. You are approaching the job like you are a white knight swooping in a save Deaf kids and adults from everyone else's misguided choices. I have yet to meet a deaf adult who didn't know their own mind. If you will listen, you will find that Deaf students will show us their preferences too and you must respect and advocate for them , not turn them into YOUR vision of what a Deaf student should be.
 
Not to mention that it's pretty much built in at the oral and speech(oral preschools/kindergartens) An oral TOD is pretty much a SLP specializing in teaching dhh kids to talk
 
Only in a perfect world and in an academic setting that is not complex. What happens when they hit 4th grade?

Agreed........There are a lot of oral kids who transfer to Signing Deaf programs around fourth grade,when things get tough....Fourth grade seems to be the big thing....but the thing is,they're doing so poorly that Clarke doesn't want them.....Clarke is a selective school,and can chose who to admit......their curriculum is also very competive....
And there are also kids who transfer from the speech schools or the early oral programs.
 
No. They are completely caught up before age 5. They completely graduate and no longer need services. Their language is no longer delayed. They are within the normal range. Can I be any clearer?

Then how come the fact that their verbal IQs are on par isn't news? If I recall the 85% stat EXCLUDED vocabularly....They still lagged with vocab.......but vocabullary is a HUGE part of language.....
 
Oh, my!! Speech therapy for a child who has been implanted can very from once DAILY to TWICE daily. My cousin, who was implanted early, saw an SLP daily as a baby/youngster and then during the school years saw the school SLP and had separate therapy after school.

Listen, TODtobe...we need TODs very badly, but not this bad. You have to leave all ego at the door when working with Deaf children and their families. This is not your road to walk. The vision, the journey, is the family's and the child's...... your job is to support, guide, advocate, love and educate your students. Having an opinion is one thing, but you have extreme biases that will be unfair to your families. I wish you could realize just how diverse a typical caseload can be. I would encourage you to think about a different career. You are approaching the job like you are a white knight swooping in a save Deaf kids and adults from everyone else's misguided choices. I have yet to meet a deaf adult who didn't know their own mind. If you will listen, you will find that Deaf students will show us their preferences too and you must respect and advocate for them , not turn them into YOUR vision of what a Deaf student should be.

You clearly have no idea what my "bias" is. As I have said before, I am the only one in my entire department that knows any ASL (including the professors). I am the only one who has any experience with the Deaf community. I am the only one who sees use for and respects ASL as a language and a viable option for deaf children. But somehow none of that matters because I also believe that deaf students can acquire spoken English through listening? (A fact well supported by research).

MY choices do not matter. I do not choose the language of any deaf child. That is their family's choice. If they want ASL, they choose an ASL program. If they choose spoken language, they send their child to an oral program.
 
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