Myths of the Vietnam War exposed

[Liebling:-)))]

Liebling is not a citizen of the United States. By no means should we discount her contribution.

The Vietnam War was one of many post-World War II wars the erupted, especially, in Southeast Asia. These wars were fought to stem the tide of communism. In Southeast Asia, communism was manned, funded, and politically endorsed by China.

Britain was fighting in Southeast Asia - equally - alongside the United States in Vietnam. There is a common misperception among Americans that the United States was the only country fighting at the time.

While Vietnam is not the signature war for the British, the "whole picture" includes a broader scope of the "Cold War", of which Britian and other countries were part of.

It would appear that Liebling would adopt what she likes and dis-own what she does not. That is her right and that is what makes her a living human.

My point: the United States was not alone in its foriegn policy and global contributions should not be discounted based on nationalism.

and again for your warm kind word for treat me a human being like everyone with respect.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I'm sure that was not Pacman's intention. What he meant is that you have such a strong view for USA and has posted a lot about USA that should be doing this and that or should ban it. Although you are a German citizen, you act like you're an American and/or believe that USA should follow European's principle.

No matter either it's intention or not but to me, his post shows itself that he is an anti-Foreigner/foreigner-hostile.

To me, you made a lot of assumption posts. Here is my list for you.

1. I know and befriend with many Americans come and go for over 22 years. I learn a lot thru them.

2. I learn a lot about American culture and political issues thru several American Forums and befriend with online Americans for 5 years and have been visit to America to meet them in real life. I learn a lot thru them.

3. Could you please to fresh my memory where have I say that "something" should be ban?

4. Did I say that I am a German citizen?

5. Could you please to fresh my memory where have I say that USA should follow European's principle?

I'm sorry when you don't like but you have to face sometimes that I learn a lot from American ADers from threads for over 5 years and also Americans in real life for over 22 years. I am open mind and do not ignore their culture. They are also open their mind and do not ignore my culture, too. We shares our culture a lot. They accept when I disagree with them and also US system as the same I accept when they disagree with me and German/EU system as well. I really have no problem for that but you?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Response to your entire posting #38. He actually admitted that he lied. He apologized.

for provided 4 links. It's interesting to read all of 4 links but I do not see anything that he admitted that he lied but admitted his mistake for use the some words.

Proof #1 - Pastor Admits Lying About Vietnam Bombing - I'm not sure about the authenticity of that article but looks good to me.

I doubt that article. I googled and found right one because I beleive in look on both sides. See the link, I provided at your link "proof #4" "John Plummer's Response and Ronald timberlake's A Rebuttal". That link, I found and agree that John Plummer made some mistakes (example he should not say "I am one man....." or "order" to the public.)

Proof #2 - Vietnam Napalm Girl

It's powerful and sad to read.

I can understand John Plummer's side. It seem to me that he felt it's his responsible for involved Vietnam war. He feel free and found peace after accept Kim's forgiveness. I see nothing wrong with that, no matter either it's him or not but it's his feeling. The link, I provided yesterday that nightmare of vietnam war haunted him for years until got Kim's forgive and peace.

Proof #3 -

Read caption - That plane which dropped napalm belonged to Vietnamese Airforce (VNAF). It was dropped by South Vietnamese pilot, NOT JOHN PLUMMER

for convince me. I say no more further.

Proof #4 - Investigation and Testimony by Robert N. Timberlake: "Rebuttal to John Plummer's Responses

Rebuttal to John Plummer's Response

Bottom of link...

Plummer: I stand by my story of the events of June 8, 1972. I used one word in telling the story when another word would have been more accurate, but that in no way changes my involvement or my feelings during the ensuing years, nor does it change the tremendous gift of forgiveness given to me by Kim Phuc. I'm sorry some people have been offended by my telling of the events of that day, but so many, many others have benefited from hearing the wonderful story of forgiveness and reconciliation. I pray that the real message of God's grace will continue to inspire people who need to hear about the gift of forgiveness.

Fact: After being proven to have lied about his involvement, John wants to change one word, and continue to advance his ministry on the notoriety that his embellishments and lies gained for him. Changing that one word after all the damage his embellishment has caused is ludicrous. He should be accountable for his inconsistencies, his changing story, and the lies he has told.

It shows that Plummer did not admitted that he lied but use some mistakes word. He stand by his story what and how he through. It's Ronald timberlake who accused Plummer as a liar because he change the word. Remember, we are human being who make mistakes for use wrong words.

Conclusion - John Plummer was a low level staff officer on the staff of the US Army advisors. NOT A PILOT!!!

Is it nice word to label John Plummer as a low level staff officer? I do not see after which position he had but just himself. If anyone see after which position he had than see him as human being then is their loss and ignorant.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

no wonder people point to american! rme! that plane was more like borrow or give to south vietnam as tool to fight..

Nobody point to Americans but it's American himself who admitted with mistake word to get media influence the world.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

This is from Kim Phuc's current website:

"The concept of the Kim Foundation was inspired by Kim Phuc - an innocent victim of the Vietnam War at the age of nine. On June 8, 1972, Kim's village of Trang Bang came under attack by South Vietnamese planes, which mistakenly dropped napalm on a Buddhist pagoda in an area where the North Vietnamese were infiltrating. While running for safety with other children, Kim was severely burned by the napalm."
KIM Foundation International : Healing Children of War

for link. Yes I awared that Kim never use the word "American pilot" but just a pilot... until John Plummer admitted to her and then forgave him...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

"They" are the History Channel, and I imagine that "they" are bringing it up now because that's what the History Channel does. They look at historical events with a fresh perspective.

Yes I can understand but why tooo long?

If you want to know the sources of their research, go to the link that I provided, and then click on the resources at the end of the page.

Statistics aren't opinion polls. Statistics are the result of data that is collected and analyzed.

Okay and

 

[Jiro]

Yes I can understand but why tooo long?

probably a perfect timing to show Vietnam War again since many public's comparing Iraq War to it, do you suppose? I guess History Channel has an agenda...

 

[Jiro]

4. Did I say that I am a German citizen?

Really? What are you?

Don't take my post too literally - word for word. I was just explaining why couple of people were not listening to you. I do welcome your viewpoint - it's what balance the equation. A warmonger leader (Bush) is not good for country. A peace lover leader (Clinton) is not good either. A leader with balanced side of each is good... like Harry Truman.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Hubby and I served during the Vietnam war but neither of us served in Vietnam. (We were both in the Navy.) We did serve with many Vietnam veterans and several former POWs. My senior chief mentor served in Vietnam. One of Hubby's ships' captains was a returned Vietnam POW. One of my cousins did serve in Vietnam, as did many of my high school classmates. One of our church friends suffered several injuries and left an eye in Vietnam.

The worst memories of that time were of the ways that American military people were so disrespected by their own fellow Americans.

I assumed you was a Navy Journalist. Correct?

I'm sorry to hear about your cousin, school classmates and friends.

I would like to ask you question accord one of Jiro123's posts. "We did not attack Vietnam for defense purpose. Vietnam did not attack us either." What do he mean? I can't answer on his post until I want to hear anyone who experienced Vietnam War's side. I do know Vietnam War history thru school time. I do remember that they gave up Vietnam War after years battle but accord your article.


Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam and Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. I see no difference...

Example: Is it consider as a myth if I said that Germany lost the war in WWII but the fact is German military was not defeated in WWII... ?

 

[Jiro]

for provided 4 links. It's interesting to read all of 4 links but I do not see anything that he admitted that he lied but admitted his mistake for use the some words.

lol spoken like a politician. C'mon.... he publicly told public and Kim that he was the one who dropped the bomb. That's not really "mistaken use of words."

I can understand John Plummer's side. It seem to me that he felt it's his responsible for involved Vietnam war. He feel free and found peace after accept Kim's forgiveness. I see nothing wrong with that, no matter either it's him or not but it's his feeling. The link, I provided yesterday that nightmare of vietnam war haunted him for years until got Kim's forgive and peace.

Yes absolutely right - there's nothing wrong for him to ask for her forgiveness if he felt responsible for it but it is wrong of him to use media to politicize his agony. He can seek for her forgiveness and find a solace in it privately.

Nobody point to Americans but it's American himself who admitted with mistake word to get media influence the world.

Is it nice word to label John Plummer as a low level staff officer? I do not see after which position he had but just himself. If anyone see after which position he had than see him as human being then is their loss and ignorant.

That was Timberlake's word and it's nothing insulting. "I am a staff officer" - but that does not explain what significance I have in this role so Timberlake clarified it for public to understand - "Plummer was a low-level staff officer who has no authority or any such in role for calling in air strike"

 

[Jiro]

"We did not attack Vietnam for defense purpose. Vietnam did not attack us either."

I'll clarify - I was referring to your view about war because you have repeatedly said that you only support troops for defense purpose. You don't like it when we go attack country if that country never attacked us. You stated before that you went to visit to pay your respect to Vietnam veterans so I was saying why pay respect to them since Vietnamese did not attack us directly. We just attacked them and many innocents died. We came in for political reason - to stop the spread of communism. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, Reba.

Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam and Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. I see no difference...

Example: Is it consider as a myth if I said that Germany lost the war in WWII but the fact is German military was not defeated in WWII... ?

I have hard time wrapping my head around this too, Liebling! I'm sure many of us thought we lost Vietnam War. It's interesting how they say that.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

[/COLOR]
Really? What are you?

Okay, I am a British citizen, married to a German and live in Germany for almost 23 years.

Don't take my post too literally - word for word. I was just explaining why couple of people were not listening to you. I do welcome your viewpoint - it's what balance the equation. A warmonger leader (Bush) is not good for country. A peace lover leader (Clinton) is not good either. A leader with balanced side of each is good... like Harry Truman.

Okay and for explanation and welcome my POV to debate with you.

You don't like Clinton? I do like him but his scandal with Monica does not affect me... He is just human being. It doesn't mean that he is a prefect but good president. It's just my opinion... I compared him with Bush and would say Bush is the worst. Yes I agree with you that Bush is a warmonger...

It's normal when we disagree with political system from our countries.

Ooop :topic:

 

[Jiro]

Okay, I am a British citizen, married to a German and live in Germany for almost 23 years.

oh wow interesting. That is funny... I imagine you and your hubby have to deal with left-right side issue. I still think driving on left side is silly and uncool :P

Okay and for explanation and welcome my POV to debate with you.

You don't like Clinton? I do like him but his scandal with Monica does not affect me... He is just human being. It doesn't mean that he is a prefect but good president. It's just my opinion... I compared him with Bush and would say Bush is the worst. Yes I agree with you that Bush is a warmonger...

oh no - Bill Clinton is the man... probably the most intelligent President in the history and one of the best orator/debater I've ever heard. I love that part where he bitch-slapped Chris Wallace when Chris tried to cheap-shot Clinton during the live interview (click here for transcript). That was a really good 8-years of prosperity... zero deficit and booming economy. I like the part where he visited many countries too. But..... he has a big flaw - his defense/military policy is very weak and he's not good at being Command-in-Chief. He messed up with Somalia but not that bad. He slashed the defense budget very deeply that our military and CIA capability was weak - which was why al queda was able to get thru us.

btw - you do not need to compare Bush to Clinton as the worst president. He is in fact the WORST PRESIDENT in the history!!!!!

Ooop :topic:

yes yes..... we did it again :topic:

 

[jenni-m]

I'll clarify - I was referring to your view about war because you have repeatedly said that you only support troops for defense purpose. You don't like it when we go attack country if that country never attacked us. You stated before that you went to visit to pay your respect to Vietnam veterans so I was saying why pay respect to them since Vietnamese did not attack us directly. We just attacked them and many innocents died. We came in for political reason - to stop the spread of communism. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, Reba.


I have hard time wrapping my head around this too, Liebling! I'm sure many of us thought we lost Vietnam War. It's interesting how they say that.

If you are playing a hockey game, and are up 3-0 in the second period, then you take your team out of the arena, you just gave up the game. Your team was however NOT DEFEATED within the game itself, even if it is recorded as a loss, it is a loss because you left, not because the other team defeated you in the arena.

Make any more sense?

 

[Jiro]

If you are playing a hockey game, and are up 3-0 in the second period, then you take your team out of the arena, you just gave up the game. Your team was however NOT DEFEATED within the game itself, even if it is recorded as a loss, it is a loss because you left, not because the other team defeated you in the arena.

Make any more sense?

good analogy! that makes better sense for me. but somehow... it's kinda silly if somebody wants to get nit-picky with fine details and did not want to admit loss haha.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

If you are playing a hockey game, and are up 3-0 in the second period, then you take your team out of the arena, you just gave up the game. Your team was however NOT DEFEATED within the game itself, even if it is recorded as a loss, it is a loss because you left, not because the other team defeated you in the arena.

Make any more sense?

I see no comparison on your post over hockey game/war because hockey game and war is not the same thing. I compared the question of Myth and Fact between US/Vietnam War and Germany/WWII because it referring to war.

I repeat my question:

Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.
Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam.

Myth: Germany lost the war in WWII.
Fact: German military was not defeated in WWII...

Is it consider the same thing if I said Germany lost the war in WWII as myth and fact: Germany military was not defeated in WWII?

Please do not compare other thing with war because they are not the same thing. I want this answer to my question either it's correct or not?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

lol spoken like a politician. C'mon.... he publicly told public and Kim that he was the one who dropped the bomb. That's not really "mistaken use of words."

Unfortunlately yes, you has a right point that he admitted false to the public which he should not do that.

Yes absolutely right - there's nothing wrong for him to ask for her forgiveness if he felt responsible for it but it is wrong of him to use media to politicize his agony. He can seek for her forgiveness and find a solace in it privately.

I have no problem for him to ask for her forgiveness to the public or privately but he should not say "I am that man" when Kim spoke for forgive the pilot.

That was Timberlake's word and it's nothing insulting. "I am a staff officer" - but that does not explain what significance I have in this role so Timberlake clarified it for public to understand - "Plummer was a low-level staff officer who has no authority or any such in role for calling in air strike"

Yes, I know it was Timberlake's word but I only want to know your answer to my question about Timberlake's word "low level"... He should say: Plummer was a staff officer... This is a simple word instead of say "Plummer was a low level staff officer...

 

[jazzy]

I'm sorry, but if you are going to take things that way, then I cannot help you.

I never said anyone is a liar.

People can get things slightly wrong, and that is a fact.
People can intentionally twist the truth, and that is a fact.

Yes, I would be more prone to believe someone who has been there.
That does not mean you can take it as the gospel truth every time without checking validity.

I understand that people have personal feelings, but if you are going to inject personal feelings into your collection of data, then your data may become tainted. This is part of what is wrong with the world today.
It is also why propaganda works! If you let your personal feelings control what you believe, then you are potentially setting yourself up for loss.
And heaven forbid someone actually speaks out and says something controversial... oh my, we can't have that, can we.

Yeah u can call our dead friend a myth more now ever since he is dead and he can not tell the world truth. U choose not to believe in him, I am just his a messenger to remind people our government did alot of hidden agend (mispelling) to damage our men. Enough of bs on those facts which it is not always 100 percent reiable just much alike Iraq now these days. Pattern is repeat itself, our government still screw our younger newest Iraq veterans just alike our friend back in 70's and 80's.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I'll clarify - I was referring to your view about war because you have repeatedly said that you only support troops for defense purpose. You don't like it when we go attack country if that country never attacked us. You stated before that you went to visit to pay your respect to Vietnam veterans so I was saying why pay respect to them since Vietnamese did not attack us directly. We just attacked them and many innocents died. We came in for political reason - to stop the spread of communism. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, Reba.

Ah I got it. I was confused over your comment because I remember from learn at school that US went to Vietnam to defense against communsim which mean they helped people to prevent communsim to take over country. That's how I was taught to know that it's defense. They fought for prevent Vietnameses for try to take country over as communsim.

I have no problem when troops went to other countries to defense to help victims to against something for political reasons. I switched into anti-war soon after Saddam's execution because I lost my respect on Bush for mislead us to beleive something what they did not have and lead soliders and inncoent people to death... which is not right.

I have hard time wrapping my head around this too, Liebling! I'm sure many of us thought we lost Vietnam War. It's interesting how they say that.

Yes I am wondering the same...

 

[jazzy]

I believe that people did become sick from exposure to Agent Orange but I think what the report indicates is that it wasn't as large a number as they first thought.

I know that when Hubby and I go to the VA Hospital for treatment, they repeatedly ask us if we were exposed to Agent Orange. It's a question on most of the medical forms. The VA is really trying to find and take care of anyone who might have been exposed.

It's the same procedure for post-traumatic stress; almost every form that we fill out at the VA Hospital asks if we have PST, or nightmares, or flashbacks, or depression, etc., related to our military service. They are really trying to catch up with veterans' needs. They aren't perfect but they are trying.

Thanks, it took years for him to get help from VA. It was not easy back then for him. My neice's husband served gulf war and he got all help from VA to this day. He is still not able to work to this day.