Myths of the Vietnam War exposed

[HorseRace]

lol yes i called her jo ,, ( jolie) hehe!

 

[Wokamuka]

Don't trust only your buddy that 'was there'

While the "buddy" may not have the whole picture, he may have the true picture.

Your posting would suggest that, though you were there, you didn't know?

Never discount the personal (re)count of a person.

 

[jenni-m]

While the "buddy" may not have the whole picture, he may have the true picture.

Your posting would suggest that, though you were there, you didn't know?

Never discount the personal (re)count of a person.

I'm sorry, and mean no disrespect to anyone in any way (especially to people who have fought in battles)

But, being there is not enough. Even that person knowing is not enough, because YOU have no way to tell what is what (unless you are psychic)

There can be agendas, 'rose tinted glasses', bias, inaccurate memories, exaggeration, the person them self may have been lied to.

So called 'first hand experience' doesn't make the information any more reliable. It is still one single account, there is no good reason to stop at one account and call it evidence when there are more out there. That leads to possibly tainted information which eventually causes rampant corruption of 'facts'.

Edit:
Also, it is perfectly fine to listen to what someone says as a casual recount of what happened.
You should NOT, however, use this to compile important statistics, or cite it as fact when you are forming a public opinion or speaking out on something. You at -least- need to compare other sources and see if they add up, and if they don't, you have a problem and need to look at it even deeper.

Further Edit:
Before someone brings up trust or character...
It is fine trusting a friend while talking over drinks or whatever.
When it comes to actual politics, though, (and this may seem too cold, but it is true) there is no room for trust. Especially not that kind of trust. That causes a bias, and therefore an agenda. Policy created just because you like your friend and don't want to question what they say, is pretty dangerous.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I knew many vietnam veterans, they are more truthful than this crap they are trying to sell to us in public.

*nodding agreement sadly* like what I said before that I collect their experiences in real life to compare with medias etc. some is true, some not true.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Extremely fascinating. Now you see why I want to withhold my judgment about Iraq War? It may looks illegal and corrupted now but wait several years.... maybe it turned out to be same thing like Vietnam War but I have a feeling it won't be anywhere close to Vietnam War.

Do you deny CIA's final word of 2005?

CIA’s final report: No WMD found in Iraq - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com


At beginning was between before and after 9/11, Bush lead us including soliders beleive in him and go to Iraq until before and after Saddam's arrest and execution, we found out the truth... The accurate about them remain unchanged but one problem is they still argue either it's illegal war or not.

 

[Jiro]

Do you deny CIA's final word of 2005?

CIA’s final report: No WMD found in Iraq - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com


At beginning was between before and after 9/11, Bush lead us including soliders beleive in him and go to Iraq until before and after Saddam's arrest and execution, we found out the truth... The accurate about them remain unchanged but one problem is they still argue either it's illegal war or not.

just because it's "CIA" doesn't mean it's any more credible. If CIA tells you that Area 52 doesn't exist, do you believe it even though there are bunch of vague videos that show flying saucers?

You actually misunderstood the article. There is no truth yet. It is at best INCONCLUSIVE. Like I said - I'll wait for final ruling from legal process. I'm pretty sure there will be Congressional Hearing on this for next couple years.

Another addendum also noted that military forces in Iraq may continue to find small numbers of degraded chemical weapons

And still another said the survey group found some potential nuclear-related equipment was “missing from heavily damaged and looted sites.” Yet, because of the deteriorating security situation in Iraq, the survey group was unable to determine what happened to the equipment, which also had alternate civilian uses.

Among unanswered questions, Duelfer said a group formed to investigate whether WMD-related material was shipped out of Iraq before the invasion wasn’t able to reach firm conclusions because the security situation limited and later halted their work. Investigators were focusing on transfers from Iraq to Syria.

The Iraq Survey Group believes “it was unlikely that an official transfer of WMD material from Iraq to Syria took place. However, ISG was unable to rule out unofficial movement of limited WMD-related materials.”

Beside - don't try too hard to convince us to change our minds about war. We will support preemptive strikes most of time. If it happens again, I'd support it - only if they planned it better. This war was ill-prepared, ill-planned, and poorly executed especially for post-war. Funny thing is - if the post-war strategy was properly planned with exit plan, we wouldn't be calling this war unpopular even though if it's "illegal" (allegedly)

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I am not saying that I know a lot about vietnam war history but I only learn about vietnam war at school. We paid our respect on vietnam veterans with donation. Honestly, I did not know very much about vietnam war's history but I have the feeling from the read article that they denied the fact which is really very sad. Example of all is Kim Phuc.

First of all, I wondering to myself why they brought up "Myth and Fact" article over Vietnam War for a first time in 2008, not many years ago? It's understandable if they change the fact within few years later but many years later which is long time to change the fact ? Remember, we don't know how many vietnam veterans still survive few years later and also many years later to 2008 after vietnam war? How could they vote the poll? When they vote the poll?

Statistics about the Vietnam War - How many % per capita ?

I pick one of many sentences in article, Reba citied

No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground. The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture was Vietnamese. The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force the NVA out of the village. Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.

I personally learn about Kim Phuc personally thru TV interview and media interview... I read about her history...

The fact: John Plummer admitted to the public during Vietnam War Day that it's him who dropped the bomb to burnt her and apologized to her for his involvement. Kim forgave him. I and admire John Plummer for his admit and apoligize to Kim to the public. Why have someone denied it and also him as well? Kim already said that she forgave and move on... no bitter feeling in her but scar is still in her.

You need to look both sides, not one side. Like what Jazzy said she know from her experience with many Vietnam veterans in real life to opposite the medias.

Read this link

A picture of forgiveness - napalm victim Phan Thi Phuc forgives man responsible for her injuries | Christian Century | Find Articles at BNET.com

 

[Liebling:-)))]

just because it's "CIA" doesn't mean it's any more credible. If CIA tells you that Area 52 doesn't exist, do you believe it even though there are bunch of vague videos that show flying saucers?

You actually misunderstood the article. There is no truth yet. It is at best INCONCLUSIVE. Like I said - I'll wait for final ruling from legal process. I'm pretty sure there will be Congressional Hearing on this for next couple years.

Beside - don't try too hard to convince us to change our minds about war. We will support preemptive strikes most of time. If it happens again, I'd support it - only if they planned it better. This war was ill-prepared, ill-planned, and poorly executed especially for post-war. Funny thing is - if the post-war strategy was properly planned with exit plan, we wouldn't be calling this war unpopular even though if it's "illegal" (allegedly)

Nope, I understand correctly... and we all know the truth about Iraq war... We including Bush know that Saddam do not have WMD. I am not try to hard to convince you but show you the link and leave the decision to you.

Yes, I accept it's CIA's final word but it's not my problem if you want to deny CIA's final word. It's your decision.

 

[Jiro]

Nope, I understand correctly... We including Bush know that Saddam do not have WMD. I am not try to hard to convince you but show you the link and leave the decision to you.

Yes, I accept it's CIA's final word but it's not my problem if you want to deny CIA's final word. It's your decision.

I do not deny anything. My decision is to wait for final word by court. Beside - illegal or not, it doesn't change my mind toward to war. We learn from it and make sure it doesn't happen again by perhaps implementing more safeguard protocols, close some loopholes, and clarify the existing broad laws.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

There is no truth yet.

If you said that it's not truth yet... why attack Iraq for if they doubt the truth? :roll:

Do you read the title of "CIA's report: No WMD found in Iraq ? If yes, which mean is their FINAL and LAST word!!!!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I do not deny anything. My decision is to wait for final word by court. Beside - illegal or not, it doesn't change my mind toward to war. We learn from it and make sure it doesn't happen again by perhaps implementing more safeguard protocols, close some loopholes, and clarify the existing broad laws.

Yes, I said in my first post toward you... "....... but one problem is they still argue either it's illegal war or not." We have to wait and see either it's illegal or not.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Yeah , I know what you mean...and to the picture of Bush with elephant hat... I think we should leave it... Yes, I do realized that we made :topic: posts here, Jiro123... Better leave our :topic: debate to respect Reba's thread... It's about Vietnam War, not Iraq War :

 

[HorseRace]

liebing, wow! good story in that link!

i would like to know if there any truth about that war..
but this link gave me one truth about the war happening..
so i need more!
seem like long way to go..

 

[jazzy]

I'm sorry, and mean no disrespect to anyone in any way (especially to people who have fought in battles)

But, being there is not enough. Even that person knowing is not enough, because YOU have no way to tell what is what (unless you are psychic)

There can be agendas, 'rose tinted glasses', bias, inaccurate memories, exaggeration, the person them self may have been lied to.

So called 'first hand experience' doesn't make the information any more reliable. It is still one single account, there is no good reason to stop at one account and call it evidence when there are more out there. That leads to possibly tainted information which eventually causes rampant corruption of 'facts'.

Edit:
Also, it is perfectly fine to listen to what someone says as a casual recount of what happened.
You should NOT, however, use this to compile important statistics, or cite it as fact when you are forming a public opinion or speaking out on something. You at -least- need to compare other sources and see if they add up, and if they don't, you have a problem and need to look at it even deeper.

Further Edit:
Before someone brings up trust or character...
It is fine trusting a friend while talking over drinks or whatever.
When it comes to actual politics, though, (and this may seem too cold, but it is true) there is no room for trust. Especially not that kind of trust. That causes a bias, and therefore an agenda. Policy created just because you like your friend and don't want to question what they say, is pretty dangerous.

U can call our friend liar when he died from Agent orange 5 years ago. He told us a story how he got it and our government were in denied for many years to know they were sprayed over our men during the night over there. To me he is a war hero because he suffered many years and lost his battle his life to it. Yet here says about Agent Orange raised my suspsion.

 

[Jiro]

The fact: John Plummer admitted to the public during Vietnam War Day that it's him who dropped the bomb to burnt her and apologized to her for his involvement. Kim forgave him. I and admire John Plummer for his admit and apoligize to Kim to the public. Why have someone denied it and also him as well? Kim already said that she forgave and move on... no bitter feeling in her but scar is still in her.

Please choose your words very carefully. You obviously did not do your homework. In the article you posted - John Plummer said....

In 1972 he set up an air strike on the village of Trang Bang after twice being assured there were no civilians in the area.

"My heart was wracked with guilt in the realization that it was I who was responsible for her injuries; it was I who had sent the bombs into her village."

Plummer said he eventually conceded to himself that he had done everything humanly possible to make sure the attack area was clear of civilians.

WTF!?!? For the record, John Plummer was a low level staff officer on the staff of the US Army advisors - in an assignment without authority even to directly coordinate actions with VNAF, much less command, order, or direct any activity. John Plummer was not directly responsible for bombing. The bombing at the village of Trang Bang was conducted by 100% South Vietnamese. A South Vietnamese commander ordered an airstrike carried out by the South Vietnamese Airforce which was flown by Vietnamese pilots.

Plummer was miles from the village that day at the Bien Hoa air base where he assisted in preparing bombing plans. Plummer simply relayed the messages from a field adviser to another American officer another American officer, who passed the information on to a South Vietnamese officer, who radioed the flight line to send the bombers into the sky.

John Plummer = A FRAUD! A HACK! AN INSULT TO VETERANS! No wonder - he is a Reverend!! obviously he was against the war from the beginning and probably born anti-war. Sucks that he got drafted into it.

We did not attack Vietnam for defense purpose. Vietnam did not attack us either. so why were you paying respect to Vietnam veterans? Isn't it a contradictory to your anti-war belief? It's ironic - you're using John Plummer example while paying your respect to Vietnam veterans. That liar's apology and lie furthers a stereotype of Vietnam veterans as killers and maimers of children. This guy was obviously using this tragedy for his own aggrandizement. He's just

 

[Liebling:-)))]

so why were you paying respect to Vietnam veterans? Isn't it a contradictory to your anti-war belief? It's ironic - you're using John Plummer example while paying your respect to Vietnam veterans.

Please re-read my post carefully. I said that I know a little about Vietnam War history. I can't say anything what I know about them but I learn about those Vietnam War when I was at school and pay the respect on Vietnam veterans which mean I was young at school that's time. That's time I have a little knowledge about Vietnam War history and was being influence by teacher and pay our respect on Vietnam Veterans. (I was still at school that's time Vietnam War was continued).

And then quoted that one what I know because I read Kim's history and her TV interview. She did said that John Plummer apologized her to the public and admitted that he is responsible for his involvement to burnt her which mean is he dropped the bomb at that near villiage where Kim and his cousins lived. The medias and TV news about John Plummer... Yes, I him for that.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

WTF!?!? For the record, John Plummer was a low level staff officer on the staff of the US Army advisors - in an assignment without authority even to directly coordinate actions with VNAF, much less command, order, or direct any activity. John Plummer was not directly responsible for bombing.

No matter either he is responsible or not and what person he is... but I him for admitted his responsible for his involvement and apoloized Kim to the public. Kim forgave him... He did admitted that it's him who drop the bomb to near villiage that burnt Kim.

The bombing at the village of Trang Bang was conducted by 100% South Vietnamese. A South Vietnamese commander ordered an airstrike carried out by the South Vietnamese Airforce which was flown by Vietnamese pilots.

It's your decision for beleive differently but it's my decision to look at both side before beleive to. Plummer admitted to the public then I beleive him because Kim said in her history and TV interview the same thing.

John Plummer = A FRAUD! A HACK! AN INSULT TO VETERANS! No wonder - he is a Reverend!! obviously he was against the war from the beginning and probably born anti-war. Sucks that he got drafted into it.

I see no problem when anyone choose to admit and apologized for their action... Why call him fraud and insult when he stated his own experience and accept his responsible and apologized for that? Do you have any problem with anyone for admit their mistake/responsible for their action?

We did not attack Vietnam for defense purpose. Vietnam did not attack us either.

I don't know. Better ask Jazzy or anyone who experience Vietnam veternarns in real life.

so why were you paying respect to Vietnam veterans? Isn't it a contradictory to your anti-war belief? It's ironic - you're using John Plummer example while paying your respect to Vietnam veterans.

I only know those history at school and pay the respect on them... That's it. Until I learn some more about Vietnam war from American Forum. No, I was not anti-war during Vietnam War time until Iraq War.... Please do not assume that I use John Plummer as an example... Please re-read my post carefully. I said that I have the feeling from reading the article that the fact are being deny... Example is Kim because I know her thru read her history and TV interview at few years ago. I googled the link because I remember Kim's story until I found the link which match my knowledge.

That liar's apology and lie furthers a stereotype of Vietnam veterans as killers and maimers of children. This guy was obviously using this tragedy for his own aggrandizement. He's just

Huh? He only admitted that it's HIM who dropped the bomb, that burnt Kim... and apologized to her. It's about him and her. He has no reason to tell lie when he experienced Vietnam War and public apoligized to her.

 

[Jiro]

Please re-read my post carefully. I said that I know a little about Vietnam War history. I can't say anything what I know about them but I learn about those Vietnam War when I was at school and pay the respect on Vietnam veterans which mean I was young at school that's time. That's time I have a little knowledge about Vietnam War history and was being influence by teacher and pay our respect on Vietnam Veterans. (I was still at school that's time Vietnam War was continued).

And then quoted that one what I know because I read Kim's history and her TV interview. She did said that John Plummer apologized her to the public and admitted that he is responsible for his involvement to burnt her which mean is he dropped the bomb at that near villiage where Kim and his cousins lived.

Then choose your words carefully and it's always good idea to research before you say it. In your previous quote - you said:

I personally learn about Kim Phuc personally thru TV interview and media interview... I read about her history...

The fact: John Plummer admitted to the public during Vietnam War Day that it's him who dropped the bomb to burnt her and apologized to her for his involvement. Kim forgave him. I and admire John Plummer for his admit and apoligize to Kim to the public. Why have someone denied it and also him as well? Kim already said that she forgave and move on... no bitter feeling in her but scar is still in her.

You need to look both sides, not one side. Like what Jazzy said she know from her experience with many Vietnam veterans in real life to opposite the medias.

Read this link

A picture of forgiveness - napalm victim Phan Thi Phuc forgives man responsible for her injuries | Christian Century | Find Articles at BNET.com

That's a lot of red flags!

 

[HorseRace]

liebling and jiro, oh boy both of you.. now i lost who is right or wrong! * slap (one time) on my forehead *

mmm ok john plummer was a pilot? or not? which one?
if he was a pilot who drop it there, then i understand this story..
if he wasnt, then i understand this story.. i need to clear up! oh boy

no wonder no wonder no one talk about that vietnam war.. it all mess!

 

[Liebling:-)))]

liebling and jiro, oh boy both of you.. now i lost who is right or wrong! * slap (one time) on my forehead *

mmm ok john plummer was a pilot? or not? which one?
if he was a pilot who drop it there, then i understand this story..
if he wasnt, then i understand this story.. i need to clear up! oh boy

Yes, John Plummer was a pilot and admitted that it´s him who dropped the bomb that burnt Kim. He public apolgized Kim at Vietnam Day. Kim forgave him.

no wonder no wonder no one talk about that vietnam war.. it all mess!

Yes, I wondering the same. It look like that we pay our attention to focus Iraq war mostly because we know Iraq War than Vietnam War. I only know Vietnam War that´s time I was young and schoolgirl..