My thoughts on Deaf Education

[shel90]

read what daredevil also said, it's not just one person, :P

Read what Jillio said after that.

 

[Grummer]

shushugah and sheilia you have a LONG way to go....

I Loathe the "overcoming" ideals that comes with the hearing normalisation activity associated with English, Professions or plainly 'wanna-be-hearing'.

I WANNA BE DEAF, I DONT WANNA BE HEARING, that's the difference.
Confused? i bet you are

 

[CrzyMeg]

shushugah and sheilia you have a LONG way to go....

I Loathe the "overcoming" ideals that comes with the hearing normalisation activity associated with English, Professions or plainly 'wanna-be-hearing'.

I WANNA BE DEAF, I DONT WANNA BE HEARING, that's the difference.
Confused? i bet you are

you confused me buddy! lol

 

[Grummer]

well i dont want to 'overcome' my deafness, i want society to overcome that i am Deaf.
Turn the table!

I want to achieve, that is Very different from overcoming. Working hard is all good but comforming is NOT cool. There should be a line to cut, and relax by that, i dont MEAN consumerist - relaxing, i mean relax and be simple, if need be do meditation or draw pictures or have more meaningful relationship with your pets that kind of relax. On the last example, i dont mean buying a new kennel to spoil, i meant spoil your dog with your quality time AND often!...this is the kind of mentality 'over achievers' and 'hearing-wanna-be's' fails to recognise

 

[CrzyMeg]

well i dont want to 'overcome' my deafness, i want society to overcome that i am Deaf.
Turn the table!

I want to achieve, that is Very different from overcoming. Working hard is all good but comforming is NOT cool. There should be a line to cut, and relax by that, i dont MEAN consumerist - relaxing, i mean relax and be simple, if need be do meditation or draw pictures or have more meaningful relationship with your pets that kind of relax. On the last example, i dont mean buying a new kennel to spoil, i meant spoil your dog with your quality time AND often!...this is the kind of mentality asians'over achievers' and 'hearing-wanna-be's' fails to recognise

i am not asking that. Hearing people need to accept who we are. But i talking about Education in School. it is different.

 

[jillio]

Before I rebuttal off, what do you exactly mean by ???

Regarding the "audist view", let's bring it to another analogy, of say minority hispanic students in NY, CA, Texan and other state Public schools. In the big picture of life, spanish and english are really both just languages, and if anything, spanish can be more useful at times and more simple to learn. However we live in an american society, where english is much more mainstream, and not knowing english is a huge disadvantage economically and socially.

I think you can see where I am going, and that's not to say that spanish is bad or anything of course, but it's easy to see where the ''audist view" comes from, and while AG Bell doesn't even mandate a CI or Oral deafism, it does promote it, and it's not for THEIR good, but for you Jiro, and my good. I know this is a sensitive topic and expands further on, to pros and cons of CI's, but this "audist" view is not same classwarfare or something. It's a matter of maximum integration and possibilities.

Let's face the facts, the majority of Deafies do not have high paying jobs or college degrees. Of the one's that do have degrees, many are limited, not by pure choice to Gaulladett (spel?) and RIT.

There's no reason to hate on people with "audist" views, when it's because they want the best for you. Perhaps i am using audist incorrectly, because I am not feeling superior, but practically it's much better, it's like having a US medical degree vs russian.

Expecting lower standards for the deaf is not acceptable, that's the equivalent of affirmative action, and implicitly implying that you are inferior and deserve leeway. Accommodations? Absolutely, but that's no reason to accept less.

I see where you are going, but you are comparing apples to oranges. I don't know where you get the idea that deaf students are limited in their choice of colleges. That is simply not true at all. Nor where you are getting the information on employment and pay scale for deaf individuals.

Re: your perspective on audism...that is a perfect example of the audist, paternalistic attitude that so many hate. You walked right into that one.:roll:

I thought you claimed to be an experienced debater. An experienced debater does his research before spouting off that which can be so easily countered.

 

[jillio]

I agree, but...... still doesn't make sense to have interpreters there as well as many deaf people who sign. Wouldn't it make the BIG oralist supporters upset? You see what I mean? Sort of the opposite of having a couple of deaf people speaking to each other in Gallaudet.

Obviously they can't control who signs, but they can control having interpreters there. And if deaf people sign to each other there, why would they be there, supporting AG Bell (a so called hardcore oralist group)? Something just doesn't jive.

I am not talking about AG Bell himself (another matter), but rather the group as it is in the past 15 years.

It is a public show. When I start seeing signing students getting the same opportunities for college assistance as the oral deaf do from this organization, I will gladly concede that you have a point.

Likewise, when I see this organization begin to discuss ASL as something other than that to be resorted to if oral only fails, I will concede that you have a point.

When I start seeing this organization taking part in that which will elevate signing deaf to the same status as oral deaf in society's perception, I will concede you have a point. Rather than being supportive of say, the Pepsi commercial that gave media attention to the signing deaf, they simply became miffed because the oral deaf weren't portrayed. In the process of marginalization, all deaf are subject, but the in group difference is that signing deaf are marginalized within the group, and subject to more marginalization from society. When A.G. Bell begins to address these issues, they will be operating from a perspective of supporting all deaf, and not just the oral deaf.

Let's also keep in mind that these conventions are meant not only to attract new membership, but to attract finanacial support from the business community. They keep their reach at a convention as wide as possible. But the tale is told in the way their philosophy is actually put into practice.

 

[jillio]

Oh really, so gaulladet and deaf are synonymous and one? I don't think playing a modus tollen's fallacy argument is correct. (If A implies B, then you just assumed B implies A),

I am saying the colleges are are limited...which is what I did.

And, once again, you are wrong. Do your research and know what you are talking about prior to putting words to print.

You know, you are getting more offensive with each post you make. You probably should stop now and resume when you know a bit more about what you are attempting to discuss.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

When I was in mainstream school I did not get the extra help I needed and we did not all the tech we have today! My parents gave me no support and my dad thought I was jackass! I am glad the schools are better today and that there are note takers etc to help deaf and hoh students. I sure wish had gotten better education when I was younger .

 

[Beach girl]

Again though, you don't go back and analyze the men whose names are lent to Ford, Chevy, JPMorgan, and judge the car, the bank based on whatever political perspectives were held by those founders.

Actually - I do, to some extent. Not the makers that you mentioned, but I look very unfavorably on BMW and Mercedes, and to a lesser extent Audi/Volkswagen, because of all that unpleasantness in the '40's, in which my father and two of my uncles fought, my father being wounded and losing the sight of one eye as well as parts of his hand.

I cannot bring myself to even consider buying a German car to this day. I tried; I walked into a BWM dealer, felt nauseous, walked right back out again without speaking to anyone. Can't do it.

So, not that I have any feelings about A. G. Bell one way or the other, if someone doesn't like the organization because they have an emotional reaction to the name, I can understand the impulse. Some emotions don't lend themselves to reason.

 

[shushugah]

And, once again, you are wrong. Do your research and know what you are talking about prior to putting words to print.

You know, you are getting more offensive with each post you make. You probably should stop now and resume when you know a bit more about what you are attempting to discuss.

Can YOU tell me how many deaf people in colleges you know? I know 2 people in MIT, one including sheila, the other another oral deafie. Harvard has one ASL user who is also oral deafie. These numbers are very similar throughout other colleges.

I didn't do my research huh? It seems you are going to spout me with data of how many deaf people go to college? I know less than a handful here and there, none of whom are Deafies. please enlighten me, since I am "obviously" so wrong.

Same thing for job opportunities, :P

Please don't turn this into a painful debate, when you are stepping into one. I know I am holding the minority opinion here, but that's okay.

 

[jillio]

Can YOU tell me how many deaf people in colleges you know? I know 2 people in MIT, one including sheila, the other another oral deafie. Harvard has one ASL user who is also oral deafie. These numbers are very similar throughout other colleges.

I didn't do my research huh? It seems you are going to spout me with data of how many deaf people go to college? I know less than a handful here and there, none of whom are Deafies. please enlighten me, since I am "obviously" so wrong.

Same thing for job opportunities, :P

Please don't turn this into a painful debate, when you are stepping into one. I know I am holding the minority opinion here, but that's okay.

Obviously, you don't have a lot of contact with deaf students.

My son is in graduate school at a major hearing university. He is profoundly deaf and prefers ASL to speech. No CI.
A college about an hour away has 272, as a result of their great disability services. Both are hearing institutions. The college where I work with students with disabilities has 17 deaf students currently, and that is a small branch campus. The main campus has around 100.

I certainly don't feel any pain from this debate. However, you may begin to if you don't start to research the topic before speaking out.

 

[shushugah]

It is a public show. When I start seeing signing students getting the same opportunities for college assistance as the oral deaf do from this organization, I will gladly concede that you have a point.

Likewise, when I see this organization begin to discuss ASL as something other than that to be resorted to if oral only fails, I will concede that you have a point.

When I start seeing this organization taking part in that which will elevate signing deaf to the same status as oral deaf in society's perception, I will concede you have a point. Rather than being supportive of say, the Pepsi commercial that gave media attention to the signing deaf, they simply became miffed because the oral deaf weren't portrayed. In the process of marginalization, all deaf are subject, but the in group difference is that signing deaf are marginalized within the group, and subject to more marginalization from society. When A.G. Bell begins to address these issues, they will be operating from a perspective of supporting all deaf, and not just the oral deaf.

Let's also keep in mind that these conventions are meant not only to attract new membership, but to attract finanacial support from the business community. They keep their reach at a convention as wide as possible. But the tale is told in the way their philosophy is actually put into practice.

I am loving ASL, learning it and using it, but it's not practical to use in common life. I know you wouldn't be as empathetic if i said I'd wish to speak in Linear Algebra rather than english, despite the pros of Linear Algebra being much more intuitive and logical and non ambiguous. Doesn't matter, english is still the dominant language, and for most places if you want a job, or to study academics, english is necessary. Do you have to learn it? No, can you live in deaf colonies? Sure thing, but if you want to discuss deaf people getting higher education, it makes sense to learn english. Even Asian and Hispanic and Europeans learn english for that reason. None of them feel its evasive or bigotry. Sheila's father came from China and learnt english and become Professor in the states. My grandfather who's a Professor learnt 17 languages for this reason, my mother too knows 14 languages. I only know 3, hope to add ASL as my fourth, :P Because it's just a device to communicate, and the masses know english, so yes english is more practical than ASL,

especially if you want to become a member of general society, if you don;t that's cool too.

 

[shushugah]

Obviously, you don't have a lot of contact with deaf students.

My son is in graduate school at a major hearing university. He is profoundly deaf and prefers ASL to speech. No CI.
A college about an hour away has 272, as a result of their great disability services. Both are hearing institutions. The college where I work with students with disabilities has 17 deaf students currently, and that is a small branch campus. The main campus has around 100.

I certainly don't feel any pain from this debate. However, you may begin to if you don't start to research the topic before speaking out.

Give me the name of the college if you don't mind, till then I can't really conclude anything from it.

 

[jillio]

I am loving ASL, learning it and using it, but it's not practical to use in common life. I know you wouldn't be as empathetic if i said I'd wish to speak in Linear Algebra rather than english, despite the pros of Linear Algebra being much more intuitive and logical and non ambiguous. Doesn't matter, english is still the dominant language, and for most places if you want a job, or to study academics, english is necessary. Do you have to learn it? No, can you live in deaf colonies? Sure thing, but if you want to discuss deaf people getting higher education, it makes sense to learn english. Even Asian and Hispanic and Europeans learn english for that reason. None of them feel its evasive or bigotry. Sheila's father came from China and learnt english and become Professor in the states. My grandfather who's a Professor learnt 17 languages for this reason, my mother too knows 14 languages. I only know 3, hope to add ASL as my fourth, :P Because it's just a device to communicate, and the masses know english, so yes english is more practical than ASL,

especially if you want to become a member of general society, if you don;t that's cool too.

It is very practical for me to use in "common" life. And it is very practical for the Deaf/deaf to use in "common" life.

I don't know a single ASL using deaf that is not bilingual in ASL and English. What makes you think that using ASL precludes the learning and use of English?

 

[jillio]

Give me the name of the college if you don't mind, till then I can't really conclude anything from it.

Which college would that be?

But really, I don't care whether you, at the inexperienced age of 17, conclude anything about it or not. You obviously are attempting to speak on that which you have neither knowledge nor experience, and are revealing your ignorance to all. Not to mention being terribly offensive in the process.

 

[shushugah]

Which college would that be?

But really, I don't care whether you, at the inexperienced age of 17, conclude anything about it or not. You obviously are attempting to speak on that which you have neither knowledge nor experience, and are revealing your ignorance to all. Not to mention being terribly offensive in the process.

So enlighten the stupid, since you clearly are an epiphany of god, and I cannot but stop reveling in your overflowing wisdom bowl of awe. yes knowing what college makes every single difference, because I am talking about high caliber colleges, whatever that means, while you are just throwing at me "a college" which means nothing. Especially since people on this thread who went to real top colleges will have no impact on you or your opinion because they are too "smart and elitist" for you. Lashing my age and "lack of credibility" is quite an unfortunate thing to do. Because judging from your snarky atitude and posts, I think a 17 year old can outwit you, with the due exception of being a total bitch at times.

 

[Grummer]

I am loving ASL, learning it and using it, but it's not practical to use in common life. I know you wouldn't be as empathetic if i said I'd wish to speak in Linear Algebra rather than english, despite the pros of Linear Algebra being much more intuitive and logical and non ambiguous. Doesn't matter, english is still the dominant language, and for most places if you want a job, or to study academics, english is necessary. Do you have to learn it? No, can you live in deaf colonies? Sure thing, but if you want to discuss deaf people getting higher education, it makes sense to learn english. Even Asian and Hispanic and Europeans learn english for that reason. None of them feel its evasive or bigotry. Sheila's father came from China and learnt english and become Professor in the states. My grandfather who's a Professor learnt 17 languages for this reason, my mother too knows 14 languages. I only know 3, hope to add ASL as my fourth, :P Because it's just a device to communicate, and the masses know english, so yes english is more practical than ASL,

especially if you want to become a member of general society, if you don;t that's cool too.

i dont like one bit of what yoyu say say

Please don't turn this into a painful debate, when you are stepping into one. I know I am holding the minority opinion here, but that's okay.

LOL you holding ther minority's opinon ? you havent got a clue, NO way, you are giving credits to English and the hearing world, and say ASL is not practical, etc etc you hardly respect sign langauge
its plain obvious that you think you're gift with English, (and i dont care if you are, not care about you family being fluent in many languages, it doesnt mean they RESPECT languages or culture. Obviously language knowledge was treated as a means to high income/wealth, to me that's not respect, that's exploitation, even raping the languages.

 

[jillio]

So enlighten the stupid, since you clearly are an epiphany of god, and I cannot but stop reveling in your overflowing wisdom bowl of awe. yes knowing what college makes every single difference, because I am talking about high caliber colleges, whatever that means, while you are just throwing at me "a college" which means nothing. Especially since people who went to real top colleges will have no impact on you for being too "smart and elitist". Lashing my age and "lack of credibility" is quite an unfortunate thing to do. Because judging from your snarky atitude and posts, I think a 17 year old can outwit you, with the due exception of being a total bitch at times.

What would you, who has never attended college, call a high calibre college?

A 17 year old can outwit me? Perhaps after your frontal lobe has finished developing. Until then, I think not. But that is your usual adolescent thinking.

 

[shushugah]

It is very practical for me to use in "common" life. And it is very practical for the Deaf/deaf to use in "common" life.

I don't know a single ASL using deaf that is not bilingual in ASL and English. What makes you think that using ASL precludes the learning and use of English?

Most of the posts on this blog?