My RIGHTS to keep my Hearing Dog....

[Grummer]

Lantana, you raised an interesting point here.

I am sure what you are saying is true, yet I do wonder what about if someone wants to self-train a hearing dog, and have it checked out by a dog trainer to give endorsement to the privately-owned and privately-trained 'hearing dog'. Like why should a hearing people-controlled organisation controls which deafs should have a hearing dog there is no independence achieed there, only providing jobs for hearing people. In a radical view, it is a variation of exploitation.

I have seen and heard (and KNOW of a Blind Professor at a university, who told Blind Foundation to get stuffed and trained his own guide dog for himself, he reasoned that that there is no reason should a responsible self-directed disabled (I put in deaf/Deaf here too) person can do the training and ultimate decision making. After all this is true freedom, yet a funny thing about freedom and responsibility, is that they are inter-related. That said, if a deaf person doesnt want to have a genuine role to partner with a hearing dog, then they shouldn't have one, I agree with you wholly there, but from this point onward I beg to differ.

Fundamentally, but at the same time I need to point out here there while may relate to my post here, but it is not the central premise, but only a signpost so you would know where I am coming from;
That I think hearing people should stop trying to make a living of us, for a whole lot of reasons, examples includes banning teachers of the deafs who cant sign, banning hearing administrators of service administration which were supposed to support deaf people, at this point I will stop here and move back to the discussion of deaf peoples rights to a hearing dog.

I do however, have strong feelings in the SAME way as you do Lantana, about deaf people abusing this system with fake jackets, even at one point a Deaf ghetto (he's white) teen once told me, he want a pitbull and get the same jacket (I used to have a hearing dog too) and pretend. I wasn't impressed at all.

I arguement would be hearing people need to stop abusing their systems, or well more accurately abusing their powers to shape that system to fit THEIR ideals. Deaf people, like disabled people need to confront such a feigned interdependence which is nothing more that a form of oppression. (you might read this as well and say how silly is this, but what then say a deaf person doesnt know anything about training a dog, then, yes, that's fine, a hearing dog organisation may have their place for this. However, ultimately it would be desirable to see more deaf/Deaf people taking up this role and eventually BE the ones who select and train the dogs and assist deaf/Deaf people to acquired canine companions/service dogs. That would be real progress to social equlity.

 

[Kaitin]

If a deaf/HoH person has a dog and in public (like a restaurant) the dog makes the person feel more confident and safe and helps others know the person is deaf/HoH (so no miscommunication), how does the person "cheat" others? I don't see cheating or looking bad.

 

[Lantana]

Huh?

'Makes the deaf person feel "confident"? Where are you coming from? Why do we need help in being "confident"? Please do elaborate. We are very curious. Thanks.

Service dogs were originally created to help the handicapped. We all know about Dogs For The Blind, and then later they created service "animals" including monkeys. I am all for this PROVIDING they remain professional and follow guidelines required of a professional "guide animal". THERE HAS TO BE RULES.

HOW can the "family pet" help you in public??

For at home, we all understand. Almost *any* dog will tell you when someone is knocking at the door. My CATS do that! But I would never dream of taking my cat to a restaurant to help my "self confidence". That is ridiculous. PETS as such belong at HOME. Unless they are genuine, trained, service animals.

Many MANY deaf persons live entirely within the government's courtesy. How can these recipitents afford appropriate shots and health care for a dog when they cannot even support THEMSELVES? When a dog is brought into a public place, the owner should have prooof of all shots and be able to provide documentation that the animal is healthy and not dangerous to society. What if the dog bit someone?? What if someone stumbled and fell back over the dog and became seriously injured? Dogs need to be professionally trained to be taken into public places. If not, LEAVE THEM HOME WHERE THEY BELONG.

This isn't a teenage game where you are striving to beat the system. This is the adult world where adults need to act like adults and follow the rules that people (who are smarter than you are ) have created.

You deafies out there who continuously try to "get by" and bend the rules as far as you are able to, are fooling yourselves. Show a little class, follow the rules, try and make the world a better place. In the end you will be happy that you did.

Respectfully, Lantana

Lantana's Latitude

 

[Lantana]

Your post is verywell written and with great common sense included. I admire and appreciate your contribution. Thankyou.

There are books you can purchase to train your own hearing ear dog. (I have two of these books). 'However it is presumed that your self-trained animal will remain at home and service you at home. How can a dog help you at McDonalds? How can your family pet help you in the doctor's office, the dentist's, in line at the bank?? IF (and only IF) the dog is professionally trained and has a license, then the dog can go anywhere YOU go. BUT NOT THE FAMILY PET, who is just that, a pet and NOT a professional. Would YOU want a dentist who has no license to work on your teeth?

Personally, I do not care for eating a meal where deaf people are parading their pets off as hearing ear dogs, it is unsanitary, unethical and discusting.

Lantana
Lantana's Latitude

Lantana, you raised an interesting point here.

I am sure what you are saying is true, yet I do wonder what about if someone wants to self-train a hearing dog, and have it checked out by a dog trainer to give endorsement to the privately-owned and privately-trained 'hearing dog'. Like why should a hearing people-controlled organisation controls which deafs should have a hearing dog there is no independence achieed there, only providing jobs for hearing people. In a radical view, it is a variation of exploitation.

I have seen and heard (and KNOW of a Blind Professor at a university, who told Blind Foundation to get stuffed and trained his own guide dog for himself, he reasoned that that there is no reason should a responsible self-directed disabled (I put in deaf/Deaf here too) person can do the training and ultimate decision making. After all this is true freedom, yet a funny thing about freedom and responsibility, is that they are inter-related. That said, if a deaf person doesnt want to have a genuine role to partner with a hearing dog, then they shouldn't have one, I agree with you wholly there, but from this point onward I beg to differ.

Fundamentally, but at the same time I need to point out here there while may relate to my post here, but it is not the central premise, but only a signpost so you would know where I am coming from;
That I think hearing people should stop trying to make a living of us, for a whole lot of reasons, examples includes banning teachers of the deafs who cant sign, banning hearing administrators of service administration which were supposed to support deaf people, at this point I will stop here and move back to the discussion of deaf peoples rights to a hearing dog.

I do however, have strong feelings in the SAME way as you do Lantana, about deaf people abusing this system with fake jackets, even at one point a Deaf ghetto (he's white) teen once told me, he want a pitbull and get the same jacket (I used to have a hearing dog too) and pretend. I wasn't impressed at all.

I arguement would be hearing people need to stop abusing their systems, or well more accurately abusing their powers to shape that system to fit THEIR ideals. Deaf people, like disabled people need to confront such a feigned interdependence which is nothing more that a form of oppression. (you might read this as well and say how silly is this, but what then say a deaf person doesnt know anything about training a dog, then, yes, that's fine, a hearing dog organisation may have their place for this. However, ultimately it would be desirable to see more deaf/Deaf people taking up this role and eventually BE the ones who select and train the dogs and assist deaf/Deaf people to acquired canine companions/service dogs. That would be real progress to social equlity.

 

[Kaitin]

'Makes the deaf person feel "confident"? Where are you coming from? Why do we need help in being "confident"? Please do elaborate. We are very curious. Thanks.

Respectfully

Respectfully really? ok.........

Many post in AD about social problems, depression, afraid of going to parties, feeling too lonely etc. Maybe a service dog helps. I don't think "we need help" - just some. Also saying something "helps" doesn't mean everyone has a big problem with this, just that it helps.

---

Disability and Rehabilitation: Assistive Technology, Volume 1, Issue 1 & 2 January 2006 , pages 41 - 48: Psychosocial well-being and community participation of service dog partners

Purpose. This cross-sectional study examined whether partnering with service dogs influenced psychosocial well-being and community participation of adult individuals using wheelchairs or scooters.

Results. Psychosocial characteristics did not differ significantly between those partnered with and without service dogs overall. However, of participants with progressive conditions, those with service dogs demonstrated significantly higher positive affect scores than comparison group participants. Among those with clinical depression, service dog partners scored significantly higher in positive affect. Finally, regardless of whether individuals had service dogs, fewer depressive symptoms and being female or married were predictors of greater community participation.

---

Child Development, Vol. 60, No. 6 (Dec., 1989), pp. 1529-1534: Social Acknowledgments for Children with Disabilities: Effects of Service Dogs

While service dogs are known to perform important tasks for people using wheelchairs, such as retrieving dropped items or pulling a wheelchair, they may also serve as an antidote for social ostracism. Adults in wheelchairs have been found to receive many more social acknowledgments when a service dog is present than when not. This study examined whether disabled children in wheelchairs with service dogs receive more frequent social acknowledgment than when no dog is present. Behaviors of passersby in response to children in wheelchairs were recorded in shopping malls and on school playgrounds. In both settings, social acknowledgments (e. g., friendly glances, smiles, and conversations) were substantially more frequent when a service dog was present. Social effects of the dog were more pronounced in shopping malls, typical of unfamiliar settings where the child would be likely to experience being ignored or overlooked. Service dogs may assist in normalizing the social interactions for children with disabilities producing social isolation.

---

From Occupational Therapy in Health Care: . . . a journal of contemporary practice, Volume: 13 Issue: 2: Service Dogs: A Compensatory Resource to Improve Function

Objective. This study examined the physical, emotional, social, and economic functions of service dogs, the training methods for service dog/owner teams, and problems encountered with service dogs in relationship to occupational therapy literature and domain of concern.

Results. Owners reported that service dogs assisted them in 28 functional tasks, helped them to feel safe, increased their social interaction, and reduced physical assistance by others. Problems with service dogs included difficulty with dog maintenance and public awareness of their role as a worker or assistant to the owner. Over 80% of respondents desired additional training in alternative ways to perform daily living tasks.

 

[Grummer]

Your post is verywell written and with great common sense included. I admire and appreciate your contribution. Thankyou.

There are books you can purchase to train your own hearing ear dog. (I have two of these books). 'However it is presumed that your self-trained animal will remain at home and service you at home. How can a dog help you at McDonalds? How can your family pet help you in the doctor's office, the dentist's, in line at the bank?? IF (and only IF) the dog is professionally trained and has a license, then the dog can go anywhere YOU go. BUT NOT THE FAMILY PET, who is just that, a pet and NOT a professional. Would YOU want a dentist who has no license to work on your teeth?

Personally, I do not care for eating a meal where deaf people are parading their pets off as hearing ear dogs, it is unsanitary, unethical and discusting.

Lantana
Lantana's Latitude

I happen to have anumber of books on training dogs too, as one of them IS soley specifically on hearing dogs too. That presumption is Not neccessary true, in the bulk of Hoffman's book was devoted to temperment selection and its importance was elaborated at breadth and depth; there is no way you can say the author assummes the would-be trainers, hearing dog recipents, hearing dog owners to have no intention to leave the dog home!
I didnt say family pet, that is very different. At that point I am inclined to agree that a family pet is not ideal for the strigent rules and arduous duty set upon the dog. It requires a dog or puppy to be brought up as to fit that particular role as a hearing dog. When I said responsible, I mean of course this is considered as implied, responsibilities doesnt (and shouldn't) have room for sloppy handling.

Ii is maintained before that a hearing dog should be recogised as real, with a difference I just happen to disagree that hearing PEOPLE be doing all the ruling and screening. There should be more flexiablity, and more education so deaf /Deaf people can make actual informed decision about whether they really need a hearing dog or not.

Kaitin has made some wonderfully well-resourced response about confidence, it is not something to downplay, this is real. While I also do see some immature ones but seldom there is much chance for them to bend the rules. I wasnt even condoning this at all, however it should be pointed out that tightening of controls and by-laws regarding animals across the spectrum as been publically witnessed over the recent years, had some undersirable repercusations which seemed to allow some angry people to alter the settings which otherwise would have been suitable and safe to have dogs for such excellent roles. It is sad to see more rules slapped on in response to irresponsible dog-owners or dog-abusers, even sadder that is has gotten more [hearing-dominanted]beaucracticised.

According to proper standard of service dog handling, this is not an issue, it is not unsanitary, when there working dogs are not allowed to eat, but drink water perhaps (I have been offered water for my dog, that was welcomed and caring). I think you just have get over the silly excess of zoonosis.


Yours

 

[pek1]

I happen to have anumber of books on training dogs too, as one of them IS soley specifically on hearing dogs too. That presumption is Not neccessary true, in the bulk of Hoffman's book was devoted to temperment selection and its importance was elaborated at breadth and depth; there is no way you can say the author assummes the would-be trainers, hearing dog recipents, hearing dog owners to have no intention to leave the dog home!
I didnt say family pet, that is very different. At that point I am inclined to agree that a family pet is not ideal for the strigent rules and arduous duty set upon the dog. It requires a dog or puppy to be brought up as to fit that particular role as a hearing dog. When I said responsible, I mean of course this is considered as implied, responsibilities doesnt (and shouldn't) have room for sloppy handling.

Ii is maintained before that a hearing dog should be recogised as real, with a difference I just happen to disagree that hearing PEOPLE be doing all the ruling and screening. There should be more flexiablity, and more education so deaf /Deaf people can make actual informed decision about whether they really need a hearing dog or not.

Kaitin has made some wonderfully well-resourced response about confidence, it is not something to downplay, this is real. While I also do see some immature ones but seldom there is much chance for them to bend the rules. I wasnt even condoning this at all, however it should be pointed out that tightening of controls and by-laws regarding animals across the spectrum as been publically witnessed over the recent years, had some undersirable repercusations which seemed to allow some angry people to alter the settings which otherwise would have been suitable and safe to have dogs for such excellent roles. It is sad to see more rules slapped on in response to irresponsible dog-owners or dog-abusers, even sadder that is has gotten more [hearing-dominanted]beaucracticised.

According to proper standard of service dog handling, this is not an issue, it is not unsanitary, when there working dogs are not allowed to eat, but drink water perhaps (I have been offered water for my dog, that was welcomed and caring). I think you just have get over the silly excess of zoonosis.


Yours

Grummer,

I agree with you wholeheartedly! My hearing dog, as I've mentioned several times before, goes nearly everywhere I do and she even gets more complements and even more 'hellos' than I do! I think people know, for the most part, that Snickers is a working dog, regardless of having the cape on or not.

I think that Lantana would go so far as to say that people who wear hearing aids are disgusting, so I think it would be fair to ignore Lantana, wouldn't you say? I think she/he's disgusting. Besides, my hearing dog is cleaner than the vast majority of businesses AND restaurants we patronize. Shoot, I'd go so far as to say she's cleaner than most people are and most definately cleaner than most peoples' children are!

Oh, by the way, did I mention that my dog even acts more professional than people do? You ought to see how many people point and stare at her! My dog, sure as heck, wouldn't be caught dead doing that to someone!

 

[Lantana]

"Dogs" Period

I think most of the intellectuals here understand the point I was trying to make.

As a past owner of a bonafide, trained, > certified < hearing ear dog, I can understand the support that they give a deaf person. That goes without saying. But the deaf, like anyone else need to learn to follow the law.

These deaf folks who insist on taking their MUTTS everywhere they go, I mean, MUTTS, (that have never been trained, probably have had no shots, no health inspection, etc.) are breaking the law.

If you want a dog that you can take anywhere you go, then apply for a bonafide HEARING EAR DOG from one of the organizations that train and place them. Do not pass off your junkyard dogs as hearing ear dogs, it is unsafe, (yes, unsanitary) and illegal.

Don't depend on pity to get what you want. Show a little class and respect.

Lantana

 

[Kaitin]

These deaf folks who insist on taking their MUTTS everywhere they go, I mean, MUTTS, (that have never been trained, probably have had no shots, no health inspection, etc.) are breaking the law.

None are talking about untrained pets, just trained hearing dogs. The OP is clear - her dog is trained.

Last fall, I had to go back to dog ears training to prove it to my landlord that my dog is a great hearing dog, so forth.

I told her that it was against the law for her to get rid of my hearing dog because I have my dog certificate!

I have a hearing dog and also have a dog certificate.

Replies say the same - trained hearing dog, not untrained pet.

I think she has an official assistance dog, not a pet.

First, let me tell you that I also have a hearing dog. Unlike you, I don't tell people she is "certified" as it is NOT required under The Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990. To state such is ignorant.

Secondly, your hearing dog is NOT a pet, it is a service/hearing dog.[/COLOR]

Assistance animals are not pets.

Assistance dogs are NOT "pets." They are trained to perform specific tasks.

Assistance dogs have access to facilities that "pets" do not. They are allowed in public buildings and transportation that pets are not allowed.

Just because some Deaf people don't need or want assistance dogs why criticize or restrict the choices of the Deaf people who DO want to use an assistance dog?

That's true.. they are NOT pets.... I applied for hearing dog couple years ago, and I am not qualify to have one..

Some people want or use hearing dogs. Some don't (I don't). But no post says deaf should take untrained pet dogs in restaurants etc and pretend the dog is a hearing dog. Big difference between pet and hearing dog. The thread is about hearing dogs, not pet dogs.

I think most of the intellectuals here understand the point I was trying to make.

But the deaf, like anyone else need to learn to follow the law.

If you want a dog that you can take anywhere you go, then apply for a bonafide HEARING EAR DOG from one of the organizations that train and place them. Do not pass off your junkyard dogs as hearing ear dogs, it is unsafe, (yes, unsanitary) and illegal.

If you "follow the law" a hearing dog does not have to be from a organization. The ADA requires that a dog is trained to go to public accomodations but ADA does not say "trained by a organization". Just trained. Nothing illegal about training your hearing dog without a organization. Many posts say this, including quote from the US government.

Don't depend on pity to get what you want. Show a little class and respect.

I don't see people on AD with hearing dogs depending on pity. Where is this? Maybe saying this does not show class and respect to ADers with hearing dogs.........

 

[Reba]

This will really drive you crazy!

JBR Ranch Miniature Appaloosas--Confetti's Guide Horse Events

 

[Lantana]

How in the world can ANY dog help you in line at the bank? Or ordering at McDonalds? Or checking out groceries at the supermarket?

It has always been the SSI guzzling deafies who try over and over and OVER again to beat the system. You guys are only harming yourselves in the long run and destroying what the rest of us have built up. So be it. No skin off of my rear end. It's your life.

I am glad that I NEVER (ever!) had any assistance of any kind. No food stamps, no SSI, no Welfare, nothing. And my dog was trained by Dogs For The Deaf and was CERTIFIED. No worries. No guilt, I am proud of who I am.

I hope you can say the same.

 

[Eve]

I think that Lantana would go so far as to say that people who wear hearing aids are disgusting, so I think it would be fair to ignore Lantana, wouldn't you say? I think she/he's disgusting.

I highly doubt that Lantana does NOT feel those wearing HA’s are “disgusting”. I also feel that Lantana has plenty to contribute to the conversation and I would hate to “ignore” her and possibly miss out on a gem of information. Furthermore, just because you happen to disagree with Lantana, does not mean that she, herself is “disgusting”, and I am sorry you feel this way. Maybe if you took the time to get to know her and question her meaning more, you may feel differently.

First, let me tell you that I also have a hearing dog. Unlike you, I don't tell people she is "certified" as it is NOT required under The Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990. To state such is ignorant.

I don’t think that to “state such” would be “ignorant”. After all, I have seen plenty of deafies who do try to pass off ordinary pets as “hearing dogs”. To do so makes the rest look bad and then there is reason to question everyone. I do agree that service dogs are NOT pets and I believe that is exactly what Lantana was trying to state, as well.

 

[pek1]

I think most of the intellectuals here understand the point I was trying to make.

As a past owner of a bonafide, trained, > certified < hearing ear dog, I can understand the support that they give a deaf person. That goes without saying. But the deaf, like anyone else need to learn to follow the law.

These deaf folks who insist on taking their MUTTS everywhere they go, I mean, MUTTS, (that have never been trained, probably have had no shots, no health inspection, etc.) are breaking the law.

If you want a dog that you can take anywhere you go, then apply for a bonafide HEARING EAR DOG from one of the organizations that train and place them. Do not pass off your junkyard dogs as hearing ear dogs, it is unsafe, (yes, unsanitary) and illegal.

Don't depend on pity to get what you want. Show a little class and respect.

Lantana

"Certification" is not required under the ADA, nor should it be required. Can you define a "Bonafine HEARING EAR DOG organization?" I won't allow an organization dictate to me anything about my dog and I have no issues with them, so long as they stay out of my way and not interfere with a hearing dog team. There are many, many people who train their own dogs ("mutts" as you call them).

Speaking of "showing a little class and respect," why don't you put your money where your mouth is and learn what the law says? My dog is more up-to-date on her shots and cleanliness than most people are. And I don't depend on pity; I go by qualifications. My resume' speaks highly for itself, thank you.

 

[pek1]

How in the world can ANY dog help you in line at the bank? Or ordering at McDonalds? Or checking out groceries at the supermarket?

It has always been the SSI guzzling deafies who try over and over and OVER again to beat the system. You guys are only harming yourselves in the long run and destroying what the rest of us have built up. So be it. No skin off of my rear end. It's your life.

I am glad that I NEVER (ever!) had any assistance of any kind. No food stamps, no SSI, no Welfare, nothing. And my dog was trained by Dogs For The Deaf and was CERTIFIED. No worries. No guilt, I am proud of who I am.

I hope you can say the same.

The dog was "certified" by whom? The ADA doesn't require it. You can have your dog "certified" all you want, my dog is trained and we don't need your silly "certification." BIG difference! My dog is trained and is "certified" by me, not an organization that has no idea what deaf people need. No guilt, no worries and I hold myself well, thank you. You haven't built anything up, to anyone's knowledge on these forums. Owner-trained service/hearing dogs are the best to have because they have a bond that no other team has. Can you say the same with your hearing dog?

And I have said the same. However, we're not talking about food stamps, SSI, welfare. Where that came from, I have no idea.

 

[pek1]

I highly doubt that Lantana does NOT feel those wearing HA’s are “disgusting”. I also feel that Lantana has plenty to contribute to the conversation and I would hate to “ignore” her and possibly miss out on a gem of information . . .

She slams everyone who trains their own hearing or service dogs. She doesn't know a thing about doing it herself, tailoring the dog the way she needs. I have and continue to spend countless hours training my dog, as it's an on-going process. I also have learned not to allow people to interfere with my training, nor will I allow them to tell me how to train her or test her. Sorry, that's off limits. How hearing people have treated deaf people for centuries and now they want to be our best friends and even advocate for us is beyond my comprehension. I can see parents who have deaf kids or kids who have deaf siblings, but, the general population as a whole wanting to do it? Please, give me a break! :roll:

LMM used to post here a lot regarding her hearing dog and she feels the same way. She is one of few people here with a hearing dog, besides me, that knows what they're talking about.

 

[Eve]

Excuse me pek1, but are you under the (false) assumption that Lantana is "hearing"???

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I am with most of Lananta's posts. I do not need dog's assistance because I can do myself and have techology for the deaf in the household and have cats to do for me. Cats hear door bell and fax before lighting flash and letter from fax machine comes.

Katin, accord your post #245

http://www.alldeaf.com/878841-post245.html

Due respect, I do not see any excuse to use service dog to boost deafies's low self-confidence/esteem. I respectfully disagree with this link, you provided here because those link, you provided sound that deafies are mainly problem who suffers self-confidence/esteem than hearies which is not all true. Hearies also suffers, too.

If people (hearing & deaf) want to positive their self-confidence/esteem then do something is go to see counseller, self-help group, etc - focus new hobbies, etc. I can't see how could service dog boost deaf people's self-confidence? Yes, any pets can give us good feeling but just service dog? No... Sorry, I disagree with those link totally.

 

[pek1]

Excuse me pek1, but are you under the (false) assumption that Lantana is "hearing"???

If she's deaf, she's tainted by too many hearies. If she's a hearie, well, we can't fault her.

 

[Eve]

pek1, Lantana isnt "tainted" by hearies. She is a proud deaf woman who lets nothing hold her back. I am sure if you got to know her, you would find out much that would surprise you.

 

[Angel]

Excuse me pek1, but are you under the (false) assumption that Lantana is "hearing"???

And he wasn't the only one either.