Multiple Deaths Reported In Shootout Between Rival Biker Gangs At Texas Marketplace

[Reba]

I'm sorry but when a person joins a gang notorious for very violent criminal elements... there's nothing that can redeem them as "good guy"....

That's what needs to be made clear. If a rider joins a "club" that is known to be an outlaw or one-percent gang, then there is no redeeming value to whatever they do. Too often, the public lumps together those gangs with every other riding group. They are not the same.

Sometimes there is confusion because some legitimate riding events are open to the public, so the gangs show up, too. Toys for Tots is run by the Marine Corps Reserve but since it's open for all bikers on a toy drive the gang riders show up with everyone else. Same with Rolling Thunder. The good, bad and ugly show up.

If someone is in doubt about a club, LOOK IT UP! Do the research. It's easy enough to figure out which ones are "good" and which ones are "bad."

 

[Reba]

Well your stating the obvious...after all they claimand are peoud to wesr the 1 % diamond..
Clearly 1% means minority..to anyone wih

A grade 2 grasp of math...
They come by it honesty,they flash it and do not hold it a secret...
Their life isnt for everyone, its only for the small minority
The 1%

Right. But too many people seem to see it the opposite--like the outlaws are the 99%, and "good" bikers are rare. Or, some people fall for the propaganda that even the 1% gang members are "good at heart" just because they donate a few toys once a year.

 

[hoichi]

Right. But too many people seem to see it the opposite--like the outlaws are the 99%, and "good" bikers are rare. Or, some people fall for the propaganda that even the 1% gang members are "good at heart" just because they donate a few toys once a year.

Plenty of 1% are good at heart. Ive done stretches with a few, ive partied with them when out. I grew up eith a few too..
To be clear. im NOT one, never have been never will,
But ive known enough to be able to sencerely make this statement.
Plenty r good guys...hell a sensei i work with is one..
Just because you or jiro dont respect their lifestyle dont think that diskike equates to truth.
It doesnt. It just is you using.broad strokes, just like if i wrote. "Every single cop are bad dudes waiting to pull the trigger and closet fascists"
Plenty hold that opinion.
And if one decides.to put a uniform on that is the armed wing of state some truth in the above statment does hold.
But
I dont hold that. Im not stupid. Plenty of cops are good dudes stuck in a **** job, but they are good people trying to get through life like everyone else. Some arebad rewl bad, others are good
Same goes for 1%ers. Ive had more good times and good experiences with them then bAd.
They have their own ideals. to me what the issue at is bottom is this.
They hold to.a very strong ideal of brotherhood and loyalty. and they are more.loyal to their club then anything.
The state. Cant accept that
The state belives and holds itsellf to.be thr only thing worthy of thst loyalty..
Thus the root of the clash...in my eyes. not the only clash but one which is ignored...
Plenty of.them r just dudes loyal to their club which for most is a religion.
Of course you and jiro will dissgree.
Cool
But ive done stretches with some. and you havnt so your experience and his in this is just hot air.
Now...
I believe that anyone can be redeemed. And im not even a christian..
Their is plenty in their life that society as a hole could learn from
Loyalty
Dedication to their way
Honor
So on...
They r not mindless.saveges if they were the police and the state would of done away with them decades ago.
They r here to stay...
Because they offer an answer to those who are drawn to their way of life...and the mere fact that awnswer draws many just shows there is something so so lacking in the middle class suburban or yuppe urban consumerist american buy me, consume consume, your just a consumer...contemporary culture...
Theyere answer is for them.
Your milllige varries..

 

[hoichi]

I'm sorry but when a person joins a gang notorious for very violent criminal elements... there's nothing that can redeem them as "good guy". it's a pathetic excuse to make them feel good about themselves for doing terrible things they do for their gangs - kidnapping, extortion, murder, prostitution, drugs, etc.

you know what everybody said about somebody they know who have committed a terrible crime? "but... but.... but.... he's a good guy... wouldn't hurt a fly....." yak yak yak.

do you think a member of a violent, dangerous biker gang is just having fun riding around and bbq'ing on weekend with folks? :roll:

you know who good guys are? BACA. how can you say a member of violent biker gang is a good person? that's just ridiculous.

So i guess rhe cops who gunned down those bikers are bad guys right..
After all gunning dudes down is violent..
The cops are the biggest and most violent gang around...they even admit as much...
Meh

Your just blowing hot air about a topic you know squat about...
ive known good dudes who were 1%
Have you even met one?
If not
Yoi should shove it!!!

 

[Jiro]

So i guess rhe cops who gunned down those bikers are bad guys rifht...
After all gunning dudes down is violent..
The cops are the biggest and most violent gang arouns...they even admit as much...
Meh

um....... those bikers shot at cops.... and cops shoot back...

you know who shoot at cops? criminals.

Your just blowing hot air about a topic you know squat about...
ive known good dudes who were 1%
Have you even met one?
If not
Yoi should shove it!!!

"good dudes"? so why aren't they in "good" clubs then? :roll:

So you met some... but are you their "bro"? do you ride with them? no I'm not talking about just a nice ride out along the parkway and have a good laugh together. what do they do for their gang? why are they with 1%er outlaw biker gang instead of "good guy" club?

I don't know what you mean about you doing some stretches with them in the past. like what? being a lookout for them during bank robbery? giving them inside job information for them to rob? hiding a gun for them? what?

 

[rockin'robin]

um....... those bikers shot at cops.... and cops shoot back...

you know who shoot at cops? criminals.


"good dudes"? so why aren't they in "good" clubs then? :roll:

So you met some... but are you their "bro"? do you ride with them? no I'm not talking about just a nice ride out along the parkway and have a good laugh together. what do they do for their gang? why are they with 1%er outlaw biker gang instead of "good guy" club?

I don't know what you mean about you doing some stretches with them in the past. like what? being a lookout for them during bank robbery? giving them inside job information for them to rob? hiding a gun for them? what?

believe he means he served time in the big house with some of them.....

 

[hoichi]

[

um....... those bikers shot at cops.... and cops shoot back...
?

Is that your story...is that how it happened?

"good dudes"? so why aren't they in "good" clubs then? :roll: t?

It depends on your definition of what a good club is.but that kind of brotherhood, is forged when allot is on the line..hence the outlaw lifestyle.when everything is on the line a certain bond is created you dont get by yoir "good clubs" thats why they make no secret aboit bieng a 1%. Its a very honest statement actually.

So you met some... but are you their "bro"? do you ride with them? no I'm not talking about just a nice ride out along the parkway and have a good laugh together. what do they do for their gang? why are they with 1%er outlaw biker gang instead of "good guy" club? t?

Im not their "bro", not even a hang around,never was a prospect nor will i ever be. Ive done time with. Few hence my invites to parties, and indeed we shsred allot of laughs,. Always a fun time..as for what they do for their club what ever is in theie ckubs interests. once yoi realize when dealing with one your deaking eith the entire cub, the easier you will get on. Again they are 1% for a few reasons, they csn speak for themselves, but id hazard a guess that a brotherhood forged with everything on the line has. Certain draw, and thst it offers something unique and desisive compared to contemporary domsesticsted americsn culture....

I don't know what you mean about you doing some stretches with them in the past. like what? being a lookout for them during bank robbery? giving them inside job information for them to rob? hiding a gun for them? what?

Doing a stretch means doing time with some.

 

[Reba]

Plenty of 1% are good at heart. Ive done stretches with a few, ive partied with them when out. I grew up eith a few too..
To be clear. im NOT one, never have been never will,
But ive known enough to be able to sencerely make this statement.
Plenty r good guys...hell a sensei i work with is one..
Just because you or jiro dont respect their lifestyle dont think that diskike equates to truth.

Lifestyle? You're right. I don't respect drug dealers, pimps, men who don't respect women, and brutes. I don't respect thugs who mark and defend their territories like animals. I haven't seen anything they've done that would impress me.

It doesnt. It just is you using.broad strokes, just like if i wrote. "Every single cop are bad dudes waiting to pull the trigger and closet fascists"
Plenty hold that opinion.
And if one decides.to put a uniform on that is the armed wing of state some truth in the above statment does hold.
But
I dont hold that. Im not stupid. Plenty of cops are good dudes stuck in a **** job, but they are good people trying to get through life like everyone else. Some arebad rewl bad, others are good
Same goes for 1%ers. Ive had more good times and good experiences with them then bAd.

Umm, no, that's not a good analogy.

A biker 1% gang is by virtue of its very organization, "bad." It's not a "good" organization that happens to have a few bad eggs in it.

A law enforcement agency is by virtue of its organization, "good." When they have bad eggs they're the exception, not the rule.

They have their own ideals. to me what the issue at is bottom is this.
They hold to.a very strong ideal of brotherhood and loyalty. and they are more.loyal to their club then anything.

It's a forced and misplaced loyalty, which is not a real loyalty.

The state. Cant accept that

If that were true, the "state" would shut down the gangs. But they don't. The gangs are allowed to continue their existence. As it is, the "state" only becomes involved when the gangs are caught breaking the law, and then they deal with individuals.

The state belives and holds itsellf to.be thr only thing worthy of thst loyalty..

That's baloney. If that were true, they would have shut down all the gangs long ago.

Thus the root of the clash...in my eyes. not the only clash but one which is ignored...
Plenty of.them r just dudes loyal to their club which for most is a religion.
Of course you and jiro will dissgree.
Cool

They are loyal to killers, pimps, brutes, and drug dealers. If you think that's "cool" then yes, I disagree.

But ive done stretches with some. and you havnt so your experience and his in this is just hot air.

And why were they doing stretches? Because they were criminals. If they were such good-hearted guys they wouldn't have been there.

Now...
I believe that anyone can be redeemed. And im not even a christian..

Of course they can be redeemed. That requires admitting what you were doing was wrong, and deciding to turn from the past ways. As long as someone stays in the gang, redemption isn't happening.

Their is plenty in their life that society as a hole could learn from
Loyalty
Dedication to their way
Honor
So on…

Loyalty and dedication are only honorable if the object of that loyalty and dedication is honorable. Loyalty and dedication to dishonorable people and activities is nothing to admire.

They r not mindless.saveges if they were the police and the state would of done away with them decades ago.
They r here to stay…

I never said they were mindless--many of them are highly intelligent. But intelligence doesn't negate evil.

Because they offer an answer to those who are drawn to their way of life...and the mere fact that awnswer draws many just shows there is something so so lacking in the middle class suburban or yuppe urban consumerist american buy me, consume consume, your just a consumer...contemporary culture...
Theyere answer is for them.
Your milllige varries..

Gang members aren't consumers? That's a laugh. What do they live on--air?

Sadly, they do attract many because there are many lost souls in this world who are drawn in by that subculture.

 

[Jiro]

Is that your story...is that how it happened?

is there anything that disputes it otherwise?

It depends on your definition of what a good club is.but that kind of brotherhood, is forged when allot is on the line..hence the outlaw lifestyle.when everything is on the line a certain bond is created you dont get by yoir "good clubs" thats why they make no secret aboit bieng a 1%. Its a very honest statement actually.

very simple. a good club does not get involved in any criminal activities and all members are good folks who does not run afoul with the law or hurt people.

anybody can form a brotherhood. how it's being maintained varies. in 1%er's case... the brotherhood is maintained with fear and death. what do you think what happens if they quit or disrespect their superior?

Im not their "bro", not even a hang around,never was a prospect nor will i ever be. Ive done time with. Few hence my invites to parties, and indeed we shsred allot of laughs,. Always a fun time..as for what they do for their club what ever is in theie ckubs interests. once yoi realize when dealing with one your deaking eith the entire cub, the easier you will get on.

so basically... you know nothing about them at all... none at all.

Again they are 1% for a few reasons, they csn speak for themselves, but id hazard a guess that a brotherhood forged with everything on the line has. Certain draw, and thst it offers something unique and desisive compared to contemporary domsesticsted americsn culture....

they speak for themselves thru violence, intimidation, and fear. there are many other clubs/organizations that speak for themselves without using violence.

Doing a stretch means doing time with some.

thanks.

 

[hoichi]

Lifestyle? You're right. I don't respect drug dealers, pimps, men who don't respect women, and brutes. I don't respect thugs who mark and defend their territories like animals. I haven't seen anything they've done that would impress me.re.

Well they certainly dont care if your impressed or not.

Umm, no, that's not a good analogy.

A biker 1% gang is by virtue of its very organization, "bad." It's not a "good" organization that happens to have a few bad eggs in it.re.

Says you. it depends on how one.defines bad and good. they hwve a different angle and twke on what "good" and "bad" is...

A law enforcement agency is by virtue of its organization, "good." When they have bad eggs they're the exception, not the rule.
re.

Again says you. It just betrays your thorough brain washing...keep drinking the kollaide.

It's a forced and misplaced loyalty, which is not a real loyalty.

Again says You.who the hell are you to dictate anything to them. If their loyalty to their club is misplacedthen to whom should they alone give it? The state?

If that were true, the "state" would shut down the gangs. But they don't. The gangs are allowed to continue their existence. As it is, the "state" only becomes involved when the gangs are caught breaking the law, and then they deal with individuals.re.

just becuse at thisbtime the state practicly does not shut them down it doesnt mewn at root it wishes too. So i ask you why does your state allow them to exist? What interest does your state, the gov have in maintaining theie existence?

That's baloney. If that were true, they would have shut down all the gangs long ago.re.

Its actually a philisophical statement. Not a practicle one. I thought you were.clever enough to know the difference. But the state is the coldest of cold monsters reba..
The amount of dead left by your gov and state makes these 1% not even kindergarten.

They are loyal to killers, pimps, brutes, and drug dealers. If you think that's "cool" then yes, I disagree.re.

I dont think thats "cool'", but according to you, your gov allows it just fine and wont shut them down, so meh....

And why were they doing stretches? Because they were criminals. If they were such good-hearted guys they wouldn't have been there.re.

bieng a criminal doesnt negate having a good heart. after all christ was crucified a criminal, criminality is something seperate from the inner man..

Of course they can be redeemed. That requires admitting what you were doing was wrong, and deciding to turn from the past ways. As long as someone stays in the gang, redemption isn't happening.re.

Unless one believes that redemption can be found through the club..

Loyalty and dedication are only honorable if the object of that loyalty and dedication is honorable. Loyalty and dedication to dishonorable people and activities is nothing to admire.re.

What you find honorble clearly differs from what 1% find honorable, thiugh theee is some overlap..

I never said they were mindless--many of them are highly intelligent. But intelligence doesn't negate evil.re.

Evil,well your gov invaded and conquered a nation under false pretexts and lies (iraq, unless wmd were found whwre they?), and your nation was founded on genocide, so i think evil here, when it comes to.1% is perhaps a strong word..you fly your flag regardless of the dead it caused right?

Gang members aren't consumers? That's a laugh. What do live on--air?e.

Indeed they are, as are you and everyone. it is that void, though the void felt.by many in modern society that i was reffering to in that statementt..consumerism is just one of its empty manifestations..just one....

GSadly, they do attract many because there are many lost souls in this world who are drawn in by that subculture.

Indeed.the question is what is it that draws them? Why it is that many find lacking in modern life?

 

[hoichi]

[

is there anything that disputes it otherwise? .

Do we even know whybthe cops openend up on them? You actually bekers at a councilof ckub meeting seeing police present, decided to stwrt shooting at cops? really? Really? And not one copbgets injured though out numbered by hundreds. Not one cop is even shot, the reports ive read all stwte a fight between bikers started, and not the bikers decided to open up on cops....

very simple. a good club does not get involved in any criminal activities and all members are good folks who does not run afoul with the law or hurt people. .

That is your definition of "goood", i respect it.but mine and others hokd s different ideal on what "good" is. And for me its not the state or adherence to its laws which change, that mskes someone "good" or not...

anybody can form a brotherhood. how it's being maintained varies. in 1%er's case... the brotherhood is maintained with fear and death. what do you think what happens if they quit or disrespect their superior? .

A brotherhood of mini put is a rather different beast then a brotherhood of everything on the line...

so basically... you know nothing about them at all... none at all. .

Well lets see. Ive lived eith them for a couple of years, ive hwd the same working girls, partied with them, so on...used drugs with them, ect ect...and even work with one...
Yeah .I know nothing about them...sure....you clearly know more of them thrn me i grant.

they speak for themselves thru violence, intimidation, and fear. there are many other clubs/organizations that speak for themselves without using violence. .

So? If they keep it amongst their own all the power to them...
Ws for using violence and fesr...the police do a great job of doing just that...

thanks.

Your welcome man...always good to chat with you.

 

[Reba]

Well they certainly dont care if your impressed or not.

No problem.

Says you. it depends on how one.defines bad and good. they hwve a different angle and twke on what "good" and "bad" is…

No, it doesn't depend on how one defines bad and good. That's moral relativism, which can result in chaos and anarchy. Just calling evil "good" or calling good "evil" doesn't change it. Humans may desire to do that so they can feel good about themselves no matter what they do but it doesn't change things.

Again says you. It just betrays your thorough brain washing...keep drinking the kollaide.

Says you. Do you really think life would be better for all if we had no law enforcement agencies?

Again says You.who the hell are you to dictate anything to them. If their loyalty to their club is misplacedthen to whom should they alone give it? The state?

I'm not dictating anything. I don't know where you got that from. I can't make anyone do anything.

What kind of loyalty is it really when it has to be enforced by threats and intimidation?

Yes, it is misplaced because the objects of their loyalty are not worthy.

No, they don't need to give their loyalty to "the state." (What is your fixation with the state? Do you not know that there is more to life than "the state?")

just becuse at thisbtime the state practicly does not shut them down it doesnt mewn at root it wishes too. So i ask you why does your state allow them to exist? What interest does your state, the gov have in maintaining theie existence?

I don't know that the government has any interest in maintaining the existence of biker gangs. Do they? I thought they just tolerated them.

Its actually a philisophical statement. Not a practicle one. I thought you were.clever enough to know the difference. But the state is the coldest of cold monsters reba..

I'm no supporter of big government but I'm realistic enough to know that without laws and their enforcement our civilization would collapse. Mankind is too flawed to just wing it.

The amount of dead left by your gov and state makes these 1% not even kindergarten.

Is that your idea of rationalization? Even if I accepted your statement about the government and state as true, that wouldn't justify what the 1% criminals do. It's a trite saying but true--two wrongs don't make a right.

I dont think thats "cool'", but according to you, your gov allows it just fine and wont shut them down, so meh….

They're allowed because our Constitution allows the freedom to assemble. They get busted when they are caught breaking the law.

bieng a criminal doesnt negate having a good heart. after all christ was crucified a criminal, criminality is something seperate from the inner man..

If one turns from being a criminal then he's no longer a criminal. If he continues as a criminal then that's not good.

Christ was sinless. That can't be said of human criminals. No comparison.

Unless one believes that redemption can be found through the club..

One has to admit he sinned and turn away from that sin in order to be redeemed. Staying in the club and continuing the lifestyle is not turning away.

What you find honorble clearly differs from what 1% find honorable, thiugh theee is some overlap..

You're right. I don't consider thievery, prostitution, intimidation, physical violence, or drug sales to be honorable.

Evil,well your gov invaded and conquered a nation under false pretexts and lies (iraq, unless wmd were found whwre they?), and your nation was founded on genocide, so i think evil here, when it comes to.1% is perhaps a strong word..you fly your flag regardless of the dead it caused right?

Well, well, if you don't have a strong argument you can always fall back on your evil-American-genocide mantra.

I fly my flag in remembrance of the sacrifices people have made over the centuries and continue to make for our national freedom. I fly my flag as a sign of support for the good things my country represents.

Don't try to compare biker gangs with the establishment of America as a nation. The whole motivation behind each is not even remotely similar.

Indeed they are, as are you and everyone. it is that void, though the void felt.by many in modern society that i was reffering to in that statementt..consumerism is just one of its empty manifestations..just one….

That's right; everyone is a consumer. That in itself is neither good or bad.

Indeed.the question is what is it that draws them? Why it is that many find lacking in modern life?

Since we're not allowed to discuss religion here I can't give you a full reply.

The truth is, we all start out as lost souls. Some people and groups take advantage of that lost state for their own benefit and power by luring in others by appealing to their weaknesses.

It's not just modern life. There's always been that struggle between good and evil for the souls of mankind. It's just another manifestation of the struggle.

 

[hoichi]

[

No, it doesn't depend on how one defines bad and good. That's moral relativism, which can result in chaos and anarchy. Just calling evil "good" or calling good "evil" doesn't change it. Humans may desire to do that so they can feel good about themselves no matter what they do but it doesn't change things.e.

Evil and good changes with the epoch, the. even change with the religious adherence, and the culture of the given.society...

Says you. Do you really think life would be better for all if we had no law enforcement agencies?e.

I think we have been so trained and accustomed to the ideal we cant live as a society without somw alphabet soup agency or enforcment entity that we have as a species forgggoten how long we actually did live without things such as DEA, or ATF, so on

What kind of loyalty is it really when it has to be enforced by threats and intimidation?
e.

Sounds like the police and state to me...

Yes, it is misplaced because the objects of their loyalty are not worthy.e.

Says you. They find their club to be the most worthy for their loyalty

No, they don't need to give their loyalty to "the state." (What is your fixation with the state? Do you not know that there is more to life than "the state?")e.

Oh indeed i do.but considering it was the cops that gunned down these dudes, and the cops are part of the arm of the state, i think its relavant.

I don't know that the government has any interest in maintaining the existence of biker gangs. Do they? I thought they just tolerated them.e.

You awsnwer your own question a few qoutes down..

I'm no supporter of big government but I'm realistic enough to know that without laws and their enforcement our civilization would collapse. Mankind is too flawed to just wing it. e.

Alright....

Is that your idea of rationalization? Even if I accepted your statement about the government and state as true, that wouldn't justify what the 1% criminals do. It's a trite saying but true--two wrongs don't make a right.e.

Not my idea of rationalozation just keeping it real thats all. Indeed i know its lost on you...all cool..always a good a chat regardless reb.

They're allowed because our Constitution allows the freedom to assemble. They get busted when they are caught breaking the law.e.

See told you, you awnswered it...eheh

If one turns from being a criminal then he's no longer a criminal. If he continues as a criminal then that's not good.e.

"Good" and criminal are not exclusive..one can be good and a criminal. Criminality is just a line set by the state, that changes, good is whats in the heart of the person.at one time seeling booze was criminal, now its not...if you hold good and law abiding as the same thing, then your being the relativist, as laws change, as does criminality

Christ was sinless. That can't be said of human criminals. No comparison.e.

He was executed a criminal..he was the greatest magus....i grant you that..

One has to admit he sinned and turn away from that sin in order to be redeemed. Staying in the club and continuing the lifestyle is not turning away.e.

Their club is their way to redemption....its for them...not you. Your way differs...cool...

You're right. I don't consider thievery, prostitution, intimidation, physical violence, or drug sales to be honorable.e.

Well your nation is founded on theivery, at gun point. It didnt march natives who survived your conquest to reserves by cute smiles..did it? Your nation was founded on intimidation having ones land stolen, families.killed and marched to reserves is rather intimidating to sign the least. Conquering and stealing land and genocide is the crown of physical violence, and your proud of it anyway....cool...

Well, well, if you don't have a strong argument you can always fall back on your evil-American-genocide mantra.e.

Yes reba.genocide is indeed evil....or is it as long as it happens to them its ok type of thing with you?

I fly my flag in remembrance of the sacrifices people have made over the centuries and continue to make for our national freedom. I fly my flag as a sign of support for the good things my country represents.

Don't try to compare biker gangs with the establishment of America as a nation. The whole motivation behind each is not even remotely similar.e.

Tell that to the natives slaughtered and conquered for your nations manifest destiny...

That's right; everyone is a consumer. That in itself is neither good or bad.e.

But consumerism is not the same as consuming....

Since we're not allowed to discuss religion here I can't give you a full reply. e.

All cool....

The truth is, we all start out as lost souls. Some people and groups take advantage of that lost state for their own benefit and power by luring in others by appealing to their weaknesses.e.

Well thats one way to look at, just one...

It's not just modern life. There's always been that struggle between good and evil for the souls of mankind. It's just another manifestation of the struggle.

Each epoch has its manifistation, indeed...

 

[Reba]

Evil and good changes with the epoch, the. even change with the religious adherence, and the culture of the given.society…

What God calls good and evil never changes. It's societies that change.

I think we have been so trained and accustomed to the ideal we cant live as a society without somw alphabet soup agency or enforcment entity that we have as a species forgggoten how long we actually did live without things such as DEA, or ATF, so on

I'm not saying we need all the specific agencies but we do need law enforcement.

Sounds like the police and state to me…

Says you. They find their club to be the most worthy for their loyalty

Oh indeed i do.but considering it was the cops that gunned down these dudes, and the cops are part of the arm of the state, i think its relavant.

Gunned down? You have proof that the police shot unarmed bikers who were just minding their own business?

You awsnwer your own question a few qoutes down..

Tolerating is not the same as maintaining.

Alright....


Not my idea of rationalozation just keeping it real thats all. Indeed i know its lost on you...all cool..always a good a chat regardless reb.


See told you, you awnswered it…eheh

Tolerating and maintaining are not the same.

"Good" and criminal are not exclusive..one can be good and a criminal. Criminality is just a line set by the state, that changes, good is whats in the heart of the person.at one time seeling booze was criminal, now its not...if you hold good and law abiding as the same thing, then your being the relativist, as laws change, as does criminality

You missed the point. So, I'll reword it for you.

If you turn from doing evil you are no longer an evil-doer. If you continue doing evil, you are an evil-doer.

He was executed a criminal..he was the greatest magus....i grant you that..

You're granting me nothing. I never posted any such thing. Jesus Christ was never a sorcerer. He was (and is) the perfect and sinless Son of God. He was labeled a criminal but never committed any crimes--even Pontius Pilate ("the state") admitted that.

Their club is their way to redemption....its for them...not you. Your way differs...cool…

What is your definition of redemption?

Well your nation is founded on theivery, at gun point. It didnt march natives who survived your conquest to reserves by cute smiles..did it? Your nation was founded on intimidation having ones land stolen, families.killed and marched to reserves is rather intimidating to sign the least. Conquering and stealing land and genocide is the crown of physical violence, and your proud of it anyway....cool…

Atrocities were committed but that was not the founding basis for our nation. It seems to fill some need in you to bring this up in whatever topic is at hand.

The atrocities of the past in no way justify the behaviors of anyone today, including 1% bikers.

Yes reba.genocide is indeed evil....or is it as long as it happens to them its ok type of thing with you?

Of course it's not OK, and you can quit trying to transfer any guilt onto me.

Tell that to the natives slaughtered and conquered for your nations manifest destiny…

What is it you're looking for?

But consumerism is not the same as consuming….

. . . and?

 

[hoichi]

[

What God calls good and evil never changes. It's societies that change.d?

The Gods call different things good and evil....

I'm not saying we need all the specific agencies but we do need law enforcement.d?

Short term, i agree, but we can trascend ourselves as a spwcies and do away with them. If we choose to and had the mettle to. We are just dependent on them now, and csnt fwthom wny other way of existence with out them...as it stsnds now the less gov. And less pokce entities the less militerization the better.

Gunned down? You have proof that the police shot unarmed bikers who were just minding their own business?
d?

Do you hsve any proof those gunned down were all armed? Since the police did all the killing, the onus is on THEM not the victims to proof their justifications.
So reba
Was every single man killed by the police thst day Armed? What was each individual killed srmed with precisely?
If your going to support the police killing people then pls back it up.

Tolerating is not the same as maintaining.d?

The largest bussiness for 1% is drugs. Prohibition maintain. The deep pockets and the violence of these orgs. So yes the gov, the state maintains them by their drug prohibition

Tolerating and maintaining are not the same.d?

Indeed. The state does both re criminal syndycates, csrtels and 1% and all orgs involved in the Drug trade. want to end the power of the cartels? Want to really end the 1%, end prohibition

You missed the point. So, I'll reword it for you.

If you turn from doing evil you are no longer an evil-doer. If you continue doing evil, you are an evil-doer.
d?

evil doing and criminality are not the same. Criminality changes with laws and political whim, evil does not...right reba?
Or does evil also change?

You're granting me nothing. I never posted any such thing. Jesus Christ was never a sorcerer. He was (and is) the perfect and sinless Son of God. He was labeled a criminal but never committed any crimes--even Pontius Pilate ("the state") admitted that. d?

Christ was the grestest Magus. Not a mere sorcerer.

What is your definition of redemption?d?

Thats not important. Bu. There is more then one way and path to the transcendent. There is more then one, we each have oir different paths, called.for us...most lead to oblivion, the few lead to isolate intelegence, the very few break the chain of karma..
So on.

Atrocities were committed but that was not the founding basis for our nation. It seems to fill some need in you to bring this up in whatever topic is at hand.
d?

Is atrocity a polite euphamism for genocide...

The atrocities of the past in no way justify the behaviors of anyone today, including 1% bikers.d?

Indeed

Of course it's not OK, and you can quit trying to transfer any guilt onto me.
d?

Im doing no such thing....relax.....sign..you gotta light?

What is it you're looking for?


. . . and?

Same thing as you....

 

[Foxrac]

Enough with religious discussion.

Please stick with topic about biker gangs in Waco.

I don't want this thread to be locked.

 

[Reba]

The Gods call different things good and evil….

Out of respect for the request made by Foxrac (the OP), I won't reply to your trolling.

Short term, i agree, but we can trascend ourselves as a spwcies and do away with them. If we choose to and had the mettle to. We are just dependent on them now, and csnt fwthom wny other way of existence with out them...as it stsnds now the less gov. And less pokce entities the less militerization the better.

Mankind will never choose to--we can't. We can't even agree on what is right and wrong.

Do you hsve any proof those gunned down were all armed? Since the police did all the killing, the onus is on THEM not the victims to proof their justifications.
So reba
Was every single man killed by the police thst day Armed? What was each individual killed srmed with precisely?
If your going to support the police killing people then pls back it up.

Until the autopsies and forensics are done and the investigation completed, we won't know who shot at whom. I'm not making any assumptions one way or the other. I don't see how anyone can at this stage.

The largest bussiness for 1% is drugs. Prohibition maintain. The deep pockets and the violence of these orgs. So yes the gov, the state maintains them by their drug prohibition

Indeed. The state does both re criminal syndycates, csrtels and 1% and all orgs involved in the Drug trade. want to end the power of the cartels? Want to really end the 1%, end prohibition

You could say that about any criminal enterprise. I suppose if everything was allowed there would be nothing one could call "crime."

Everyone would do that which was right in their own eyes. Total chaos.

evil doing and criminality are not the same. Criminality changes with laws and political whim, evil does not...right reba?
Or does evil also change?

Evil is always evil.

Christ was the grestest Magus. Not a mere sorcerer.

Again, your trolling won't suck me in, no matter how wrong and offensive you are.

Thats not important.

If we can't even define a topic we can't reasonably discuss it. So, I guess that's end of discussion.

Bu. There is more then one way and path to the transcendent. There is more then one, we each have oir different paths, called.for us...most lead to oblivion, the few lead to isolate intelegence, the very few break the chain of karma..
So on.

I don't agree but that's all I can say here.

Is atrocity a polite euphamism for genocide…

Atrocity is neither polite nor a euphemism. Check your dictionary or thesaurus. It includes genocide and whatever other wrongs you feel Americans have done. I didn't want to limit your list of grievances.

Now, let's get back on topic.

 

[Reba]

On topic--I'm curious to see how 170 defendants will be processed and brought to trial.

I'm also curious to see what the autopsies, ballistics, forensics will turn up.

 

[hoichi]

[

Out of respect for the request made by Foxrac (the OP), I won't reply to your trolling.ces.

So you use a singular its not trolling, i use the same word with a plural and you declare it trolling...
Alright

OuMankind will never choose to--we can't. We can't even agree on what is right and wrong.ces.

Never is a long time. I think one day as our species transcends itself we will. After all we made it a long way bay with out the DEA, ATF, so on so forth...

Ou
Until the autopsies and forensics are done and the investigation completed, we won't know who shot at whom. I'm not making any assumptions one way or the other. I don't see how anyone can at this stage.ces.

Yes you have. as of right now though we know the police shot and killed those men. Do you deny this?

Ou
You could say that about any criminal enterprise. I suppose if everything was allowed there would be nothing one could call "crime."ces.

Im saying this about prohibition. Which fuels.the cartels and the 1%. Prohibition.

Everyone would do that which was right in their own eyes. Total chaos.ces.

Not at all. Ending prohibition would decreese the violence,

Ou
Evil is always evil.ces.

Stop trolling reba, pls...your scaring me....stop trolling!!!!

Again, your trolling won't suck me in, no matter how wrong and offensive you are.ces.

Look whos signing

If we can't even define a topic we can't reasonably discuss it. So, I guess that's end of discussion.ces.

Alright

I don't agree but that's all I can say here.ces.

Cool

Atrocity is neither polite nor a euphemism. Check your dictionary or thesaurus. It includes genocide and whatever other wrongs you feel Americans have done. I didn't want to limit your list of grievances.

Its not what i think americans hwve done.
Did they do it or not?
Was the west one reba?
Havnt yuo read truman?
Did americans conquer the natives or did they not?
History...
Try some...
You might like it, or obviously you would much rather ignore and minimize it...
Cool

 

[Reba]

I would appreciate it if you not add text to my posts when you quote them in your replies. Thank you.

Now, I will respond to on-topic questions.

Yes you have. as of right now though we know the police shot and killed those men. Do you deny this?

I'm not denying anything. I haven't yet seen that report. Can you share the link? Did it also say whether or not the dead ones had been shooting at the police? I would like to read the entire report.

Not at all. Ending prohibition would decreese the violence,

Is that what caused the violence between clubs at Waco?