Linguistics and ASL

[Dixie]

Ok, I'm taking a linguistics course this semester taught by one of my favorite professors. Because linguistics is the study of languages, I am sure that ASL will come up at least once. So while I am thinking about it, what are your thoughts on the common comparisons between ASL and English? Researchers and linguists have confirmed that ASL is a formal language with its own structure, syntax, and grammatical rules. I have done an undergrad research paper on the topic, and the evolution of ASL as a language is an interesting one because it happened so rapidly and even today it is a quickly changing language that adapts to contemporary society. However, there are some similarities between how ASL and English came into existence.

For one ASL is based on Old Signed French with distinctively American signs being used.

English is a Germanic language that much of its modern vocabulary is derived from old French words, which ironically has Latin roots.

There is a common assumption among the general public that ASL derived from English which we as a deaf community know is not true. Englsh and ASL are not directly related despite having French influences.

One thing that ASL has in common with Latin is that there is no specific word order that must be absolutely followed. In Latin the word function within a sentence is understood by its ending. The tense of a verb is also derived from its ending.

In ASL, this is done differently. There are signs that gives notation to when an action takes place and if the action is transitive or intransitive.

What are your thoughts on these comparisons?

 

[hoichi]

Ok, I'm taking a linguistics course this semester taught by one of my favorite professors. Because linguistics is the study of languages, I am sure that ASL will come up at least once. So while I am thinking about it, what are your thoughts on the common comparisons between ASL and English? Researchers and linguists have confirmed that ASL is a formal language with its own structure, syntax, and grammatical rules. I have done an undergrad research paper on the topic, and the evolution of ASL as a language is an interesting one because it happened so rapidly and even today it is a quickly changing language that adapts to contemporary society. However, there are some similarities between how ASL and English came into existence.

For one ASL is based on Old Signed French with distinctively American signs being used.

English is a Germanic language that much of its modern vocabulary is derived from old French words, which ironically has Latin roots.

There is a common assumption among the general public that ASL derived from English which we as a deaf community know is not true. Englsh and ASL are not directly related despite having French influences.

One thing that ASL has in common with Latin is that there is no specific word order that must be absolutely followed. In Latin the word function within a sentence is understood by its ending. The tense of a verb is also derived from its ending.

In ASL, this is done differently. There are signs that gives notation to when an action takes place and if the action is transitive or intransitive.

What are your thoughts on these comparisons?

Before i get into my thoughts on your question...

Have you read the linguistics of American sign language by Clayton valli amongst others

Linguistics of American Sign Language, 5th Edition


Have you read this
http://saveourdeafschools.org/stokoe_1960.pdf

Is your course just a general linguistics course, is is more focused?

 

[Dixie]

Before i get into my thoughts on your question...

Have you read the linguistics of American sign language by Clayton valli amongst others

Linguistics of American Sign Language, 5th Edition


Have you read this
http://saveourdeafschools.org/stokoe_1960.pdf

Is your course just a general linguistics course, is is more focused?

I have not read either of these selections. To answer your question, my linguistics course is focused on English. It is a required course for all English majors.

BTW - your second link is no longer active. GoDaddy.com has put the domain up for sale.

 

[hoichi]

I have not read either of these selections. To answer your question, my linguistics course is focused on English. It is a required course for all English majors.

BTW - your second link is no longer active. GoDaddy.com has put the domain up for sale.

Here it is.
http://jdsde.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/1/3.full.pdf

well your aware Stokoe himself was an English professor, PHD in English medieval literature.

Can you post your course syllabus, it will help with scope

 

[hoichi]

For one ASL is based on Old Signed French with distinctively American signs being used.

English is a Germanic language that much of its modern vocabulary is derived from old French words, which ironically has Latin roots.

nothing ironic but that.

There is a common assumption among the general public that ASL derived from English which we as a deaf community know is not true. Englsh and ASL are not directly related despite having French influences.

right. French influenced them both. separately.

One thing that ASL has in common with Latin is that there is no specific word order that must be absolutely followed. In Latin the word function within a sentence is understood by its ending. The tense of a verb is also derived from its ending.

In ASL, this is done differently. There are signs that gives notation to when an action takes place and if the action is transitive or intransitive.

What are your thoughts on these comparisons?

if your arguing, that latin influenced French, and French being a child language of Latin, had the effect of ASL developing its loose word order due to it being a child language of old French sign language which was by way of immersion in French itself influenced French.
then i agree.

 

[Dixie]

Here it is.
http://jdsde.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/1/3.full.pdf

well your aware Stokoe himself was an English professor, PHD in English medieval literature.

Can you post your course syllabus, it will help with scope

Yes, I have read some of his works.

 

[Dixie]

nothing ironic but that.



right. French influenced them both. separately.




if your arguing, that latin influenced French, and French being a child language of Latin, had the effect of ASL developing its loose word order due to it being a child language of old French sign language which was by way of immersion in French itself influenced French.
then i agree.

Yes, that's more or less what I was getting at. However, French doesn't have a loose word order. There are words that must occur in a certain order for the sentence to be understood by its audience. The same thing applies for English that word placement within a sentence can change the meaning of the sentence.

 

[hoichi]

True. But in the end the word order itself is t the Influence from french proper.
English has had very little infkuence on asl. Same goes with french.
The main influence is old french sign language but its not the only in
Influence. Are u at gally?

 

[Dixie]

True. But in the end the word order itself is t the Influence from french proper.
English has had very little infkuence on asl. Same goes with french.
The main influence is old french sign language but its not the only in
Influence. Are u at gally?

I agree that French influenced ASL and English separately. However, French is a Romance language which has Latin roots. English is a Germanic language that has a large portion of its vocabulary borrowed from French. The original Old English sounds very German. The reason of the French influence into what we call English today is the close ancestral relationship between the Anglo-Saxons and the Gauls following the recession of the Roman Empire from Britannia.

Keep in mind that Gaul encompassed modern day France, Germany, and Switzerland. Britannia encompassed the southern portion of the English island. After the Romans left the Britannia, the time was right for the Angles to move onto the land of the Saxons. During this time period, many Saxon males were outnumbered by Angle men. The Angle men bore children with the Saxon women, therefore creating Anglo-Saxon ethnicity. The insular Anglo-Saxons had spoken a Germanic language for a couple of centuries, and the language evolved. During the invasion of the Normans, Old French started to come into use alongside the Old English. When the Normans finally took over the throne of Britannia, much of the British Royalty spoke French, while the citizens spoke English. It was not uncommon for England to have a monarch that could not communicate directly with his people. Finally, English became the language of business and French was no longer a first language of the British aristocratic society, but was being taught as a second language to school children. After the establishment of the Gentry, French and English were being used alongside each other. Many French words stuck in the English language.

For example: Chicken is a very 'earthy' and Germanic English word. However, Poultry means the same thing, but it is derived from the French word "poulet".

Much of the higher more formal English is derived from French and Latin. I say Latin because Latin was the language of the church and educational instruction for many centuries. More informal English words are Germanic in nature.

English bore very little if any influence on ASL. ASL is not a word-for-word English equivalent. ASL was influenced from Old French Signed Language, which did have an influence from Old French. Laurent St. Clerc, himself, was French and gave rise to ASL.

ASL like any other language has its regional dialects and generational slang and idioms.

BTW - I am an undergraduate student at Arkansas Tech University.

 

[hoichi]

I know all that, I don't see much of your post really having to do much with ASL.
As for a general linguistics course at a
hearing university primarily for English majors. I dunno. Don't be too sure American Sign Language will be brought up unless you bring it up or the prof is friendly. I've done my fair share of linguistics courses. For what's its worth.
I'll help u anyway I can.

 

[Doug5]

Fascinating topic, don't know how to sign, though.

Fan of Chomsky. Bill Burroughs wrote a lot about the word virus.

 

[hoichi]

Never too late to learn
Dive in
Sign or sink

 

[Doug5]

another thing to add to new years resolutions

 

[hoichi]

Wicked.........

 

[Kuifje75]

There is another component of ASL that you can't really compare to English or French. You would know if you read the ASL linguistics manual. NMMs... Non Manual Markers. in other words, facial expressions, locations of signs, direction, body shifting, etc... I would recommend to read "Linguistics of American Sign Language."

Trying to say that it is based on Old French Sign Language, to me, doesn't sum it up. One needs to take in account into of those NMMs and the subtles of the language to fully understand the message being conveyed. You could have a sentence signed the same way, but if you don't take in account of the NMMs, you might be unsure of what the intent of the message would be.

 

[Gobae]

You would also need to compare ASL to other sign languages that were not (theoretically) influenced by French. If you find similarities, but no common spoken-language history, you are probably looking at an attribute that is common to visual-spacial languages instead of one transferred from a spoken one.

 

[Dixie]

I know all that, I don't see much of your post really having to do much with ASL.
As for a general linguistics course at a
hearing university primarily for English majors. I dunno. Don't be too sure American Sign Language will be brought up unless you bring it up or the prof is friendly. I've done my fair share of linguistics courses. For what's its worth.
I'll help u anyway I can.

Linguistics has to do with the development of many languages. Also, just because it is a hearing university, doesn't mean that deaf culture doesn't come up. It does. It came up in my Intro to Secondary Ed class from the professor. It came up in my psychology class by Dr. Warnick, it came up in my sociology class. Also, you might want to take some time to research my university before making assumptions about it. This university is not primarily for English majors. It has a strong Agri Business program and the first accredited FEMA program in the nation. We also have a highly accredited Teacher Education program. I do just fine in my studies. I have a 3.23 GPA.

There is another component of ASL that you can't really compare to English or French. You would know if you read the ASL linguistics manual. NMMs... Non Manual Markers. in other words, facial expressions, locations of signs, direction, body shifting, etc... I would recommend to read "Linguistics of American Sign Language."

Trying to say that it is based on Old French Sign Language, to me, doesn't sum it up. One needs to take in account into of those NMMs and the subtles of the language to fully understand the message being conveyed. You could have a sentence signed the same way, but if you don't take in account of the NMMs, you might be unsure of what the intent of the message would be.

I know what NMM's are. They add "personality" to the language. However, facial expressions and body language are often also used with spoken language. Without these, spoken and signed languages would be monotonous. Think of Ben Stein and you'll have an idea of what I am talking about.

You would also need to compare ASL to other sign languages that were not (theoretically) influenced by French. If you find similarities, but no common spoken-language history, you are probably looking at an attribute that is common to visual-spacial languages instead of one transferred from a spoken one.

I don't have exposure to other signed languages such as BSL and AUSLAN. However I am aware that AD has members who are fluent in several signed languages, I hope they chime in at some point and offer their input based on their personal experiences.

 

[hoichi]

Linguistics has to do with the development of many languages. experiences.

A certain branch of linguistics does, not all do.

Also, just because it is a hearing university, doesn't mean that deaf culture doesn't come up. It does. It came up in my Intro to Secondary Ed class from the professor. It came up in my psychology class by Dr. Warnick, it came up in my sociology class. Also, you might want to take some time to research my university before making assumptions about it. ?

What assumptions have I made?

This university is not primarily for English majors. It has a strong Agri Business program and the first accredited FEMA program in the nation. We also have a highly accredited Teacher Education program. I do just fine in my studies. I have a 3.23 GPA. .

Keep up the good work

I know what NMM's are. They add "personality" to the language. However, facial expressions and body language are often also used with spoken language. .

Not nearly to the same degree, often used does not translate to inherent in their structure.

I don't have exposure to other signed languages such as BSL and AUSLAN. However I am aware that AD has members who are fluent in severalU signed languages, I hope they chime in at some point and offer their input based on their personal experiences.

I'm sure they will

 

[tuatara]

Also, you might want to take some time to research my university before making assumptions about it. This university is not primarily for English majors. It has a strong Agri Business program and the first accredited FEMA program in the nation. We also have a highly accredited Teacher Education program.

My sense of his comment was not that he was saying the whole university is primarily for English majors, but that a general linguistics course would be primarily for English majors:

As for a general linguistics course at a
hearing university primarily for English majors.

All bolding is mine.

I know what NMM's are. They add "personality" to the language.

Nooooooooo! They're so much more important than that. They are part of the grammar. They change actual meanings. They go way beyond adding flavor or feeling or personality.

However, facial expressions and body language are often also used with spoken language. Without these, spoken and signed languages would be monotonous. Think of Ben Stein and you'll have an idea of what I am talking about..

It's true that spoken languages are also often delivered (Mr. Stein aside) with facial expressions, but they play a very different role than they do in ASL. Ben Stein can talk the way he does and he's understood. Maybe boring, maybe funny, depending on how you take him, but the message is clear. If a Deaf person (or someone who uses ASL in a fluent, natural way) took a passage of communication and dropped all the NMMs out of it, you would lose actual meaning. The passage would very likely be misunderstood or not understood at all.

 

[Dixie]

A certain branch of linguistics does, not all do.



What assumptions have I made?



Keep up the good work



Not nearly to the same degree, often used does not translate to inherent in their structure.





I'm sure they will

Your wording in post # 226981 is as follows:

I know all that, I don't see much of your post really having to do much with ASL.
As for a general linguistics course at a
hearing university primarily for English majors. I dunno. Don't be too sure American Sign Language will be brought up unless you bring it up or the prof is friendly. I've done my fair share of linguistics courses. For what's its worth.
I'll help u anyway I can.

The way your sentence is written leads the audience (me) to think that the phrase "primarily for English majors" is a modifier for "hearing university". If you were implying that "primarily for English majors" modified "linguistics course", I would have rewritten the sentence as:
I have my doubts about ASL being discussed in a linguistics course primarily for English majors at a hearing university.

However, this is getting off on grammar and structure and arguing semantics rather than the discussion at hand, which is about the comparison and contrast of ASL and English in the scope of linguistics. As well as the general discussion of the linguistics of ASL compared to other languages whether they are spoken or signed. Oh, the irony of it all!

My sense of his comment was not that he was saying the whole university is primarily for English majors, but that a general linguistics course would be primarily for English majors:



All bolding is mine.



Nooooooooo! They're so much more important than that. They are part of the grammar. They change actual meanings. They go way beyond adding flavor or feeling or personality.



It's true that spoken languages are also often delivered (Mr. Stein aside) with facial expressions, but they play a very different role than they do in ASL. Ben Stein can talk the way he does and he's understood. Maybe boring, maybe funny, depending on how you take him, but the message is clear. If a Deaf person (or someone who uses ASL in a fluent, natural way) took a passage of communication and dropped all the NMMs out of it, you would lose actual meaning. The passage would very likely be misunderstood or not understood at all.

I was trying to say that NMMs are important. They also add meaning to signed and spoken languages. But because ASL is visual, NMMs have a very significant place within the language. A change in facial expression could be difference between asking a question and making a declarative statement. That is understood. I will admit that ASL is not my first language and I do not claim to know more than other people. I only know what I know. I am sometimes not good at explaining what I don't know very well and my original statement about NMMs is an example of that.

However a comparison in spoken language is that a facial expression and tone can be used to differentiate sarcasm from a serious statement. Without those other peripheral details, the actual meaning of a statement may not be clear to its intended audience.