"Life about Deaf and hearing people"

[shel90]

Cheri,
The hearing population experiences this too. It just manifests in a different form. In "Joe's" life he is mainly seeing it around communication and connection with people. Hearing people may see it in this way too, even though they hear. Or, for example, they will feel frustration and disconnection around relationships or finances.

What I'm seeing in the story you posted is a common denominator that is within most people I meet and within myself. The term I use for it is "non-reception" (NR), which means Joe is not receiving what is happening in the moment and he doesn't see he plays a part in creating that situation.

Joe chooses how he reacts to what is before him and he seems to choose to feel victimized in the story. And another thing, Joe doesn't realize he's choosing his response to the events before him at all. So he's adding another layer of *blah* to how he feels. He feels frustrated.

There's no difference here than with the hearing populations. The subject matter changes, but the feelings are the same.

Ok, so Joe, our hero, finds himself on the wrong train. Right there he chooses how he responds to it. His response is: "this situation is all wrong! it should be different!, there should have been signs at the station to tell me the platform changed!". This is non-reception. Not receiving the moment you're in now. Joe is on the wrong train and totally in denial about it.

What... what is the point in bitching about being on the wrong train when you are on the wrong train? Does it improve things somehow? No. He just drags himself down, puts himself in a lousy mood, and doesn't feel empowered at all because he's blaming others (there should be signs etc.) for his predicament rather than just deal with his situation.

"Oh, wow, I'm on the wrong train; something must have changed and i did not notice; I'll text my boss and let him know I'll be late." Now that's quite a different response to have, now isn't it? He's accepted the situation (reception), he's moving in the moment, and taking appropriate action. There's no feelings of frustration or victimization about the world he chooses to live in. He accepts it as what's happening now and moves from that point.

If he threw a lot of "should of" and "could of" in his response to the situation he's out of the moment and dealing with a world that is made up in his head, not the one he is living in now.

Everyone does this on a daily basis, to me, it's not a hearing/non-hearing thing. It's more of an addiction to drama if you ask me. I've had enough self-generated drama for one lifetime; it's now my time to feel the ease and peace of life.

Echart Tolle's work is great for understanding and changing our habitual patterns of non-reception for our lives. Read his stuff if what I've said has peaked your interest. Also, he's doing a webcast with Oprah which would be great for anyone experiencing frustration or victimization in their lives. The vids are not CC'd but there is a transcript available for each session at the link I posted. Very good stuff.

Nice post but I dont agree with you. The daily frustrations take a toll on us deaf people. Most of us have done so much to meet the hearing people's needs...we would like them to accodomate to our needs. When they dont and they become a burden on us, it is hard not to feel the way we do.

Until u are deaf, you really dont know what it is like. No offense.

 

[Koala]

Cheri, that is a good blog you have found and thanks for sharing it here. Yep, thats true what is happening to us deafies and the hearies don't understand why we are not like them. I had that happened to me in a shop when I ask a salesman about something and he just walks off on me after realizing that I am deaf. Then I walk out to find my hubby. I told my hubby about it and he stormed into the shop to speak to the guy AND the manager too of this salesman rudeness. Ever since after that, this salesman was more polite to me everytime I go into the shop. Ha

 

[shel90]

The problem here Dharma, is that you are approaching the situation from a hearing perspective. You need to step out of the box, and attempt to view the situation from a deaf perspective. Having 2 deaf co-workers hardly allows you to do that, nor does learning ASL allow you to do that. Involvement with the deaf community, listening to their concerns, and giving validity to the experience of their lives from their perspective, rather than the experience of their lives from your perspective, allows you to do that.

You have come across as just another hearie telling the deaf what they need to do to make their lives easier, when you have never experienced what it is to walk in their shoes. Trust me, the deaf are perfectly capapble of determining what they need and the ways in which they can live their lives optimally. The communication barriers they face are realities, and cannot be changed by asking the deaf to change their attitude. What needs to be changed is the paternalistic attitude of the hearing toward the deaf. What needs to be changed is hearing perceptions of what it means to be deaf. What needs to be changed is the idea that the hearing are the best to determine what the deaf need in this life.

And, no, what you have to say is not automatically discounted simply because you are hearing. But the fact that you even felt the need to make such a remark says a lot. You have come onto a deaf message board, and have gotten defensive over the fact that a deaf poster has told you that your attitude is offensive. A little culture shock going on here? Take it a run with it. The deaf experience the same on a daily basis.

Likewise with your comment, "If you want to feel I am better than you..." No where did Chase say that. However, your post implied that it is your attitude. It is not about us vs them unless you make it so. Instead of standing outside and making observations from your hearing perspective, how about letting go of a little of that defensiveness and take a walk in a world that you obviously have never experienced? Instead of standing in front of the deaf, and offering suggestions about how they can improve their lives, how about walking beside them, and see what the hearing can do to change the attitudes and behaviors that serve to create those obstacles?

That's exactly how I feel! I dont need another hearie telling me how I should react or whatever. I have done her way before when I was in the hearing world full time...no more. I am taking a stand and if hearing people dont want to meet me half way, then they are not worth my time.

I am sure she has good intentions but she doesnt know what she is talking about.

 

[Dharma]

Nice post but I dont agree with you. The daily frustrations take a toll on us deaf people. Most of us have done so much to meet the hearing people's needs...we would like them to accodomate to our needs. When they dont and they become a burden on us, it is hard not to feel the way we do.

Until u are deaf, you really dont know what it is like. No offense.

Thanks for the reply.

Are you saying all people don't have daily frustrations? That's what I'm dealing with here. The emotional piece. I know the example above was about the frustration of a deaf person dealing with society. How about we change the example to two people having a relationship and are frustrated with each other. (Let's say they're both deaf if you like. Doesn't matter.)

My original post is about dealing with the emotions that come up within us. (Hearing people do have emotions, i swear!) People are pretty patterned in their responses and don't realize they can choose how they want to respond.

An example from myself: I lose my keys a lot. When I notice them missing I get really angry at myself and tell myself I'm an idiot, an airhead, blah, blah, blah. That's my pattern. Usually I feel really upset inside and not really happy, even when I finally find my keys.

I can change my response. If I catch myself in reaction to losing my keys I can then choose what I want to do. Berate myself or maybe laugh at myself and calmly look for my keys. If I pick the second option, I feel great afterward and the world feels lighter. That's what I mean by choosing my response. In my first post there's nothing threatening to the Deaf community unless you really like Joe's sullen reaction and you see me as taking that choice away.

There's nothing wrong with reacting the way he does in the story. But there are other roads he can travel.... if he chooses to. And who knows what the road will lead to.

 

[Dharma]

I am taking a stand and if hearing people dont want to meet me half way, then they are not worth my time.

What do you mean by meeting you half way? Are you talking about my posts or society in general?

 

[shel90]

What do you mean by meeting you half way? Are you talking about my posts or society in general?

In general.... Like facing me when I am talking to them, not jumping into other conversations in the crowd when I am trying to carrying on a conversation with them, telling me "never mind" instead of taking the time to tell me what the topic is being discussed, making the effort to write on pen and paper if I request it instead of refusing, making all videos and PA systems come with text or closed captioning and so many more. I learned oral skills to meet the hearing people's needs...how about trying to meet mine? They dont have to learn ASL but little accodomations like I described above can mean a lot to a lot of deaf people.

 

[shel90]

Thanks for the reply.

Are you saying all people don't have daily frustrations? That's what I'm dealing with here. The emotional piece. I know the example above was about the frustration of a deaf person dealing with society. How about we change the example to two people having a relationship and are frustrated with each other. (Let's say they're both deaf if you like. Doesn't matter.)

My original post is about dealing with the emotions that come up within us. (Hearing people do have emotions, i swear!) People are pretty patterned in their responses and don't realize they can choose how they want to respond.

An example from myself: I lose my keys a lot. When I notice them missing I get really angry at myself and tell myself I'm an idiot, an airhead, blah, blah, blah. That's my pattern. Usually I feel really upset inside and not really happy, even when I finally find my keys.

I can change my response. If I catch myself in reaction to losing my keys I can then choose what I want to do. Berate myself or maybe laugh at myself and calmly look for my keys. If I pick the second option, I feel great afterward and the world feels lighter. That's what I mean by choosing my response. In my first post there's nothing threatening to the Deaf community unless you really like Joe's sullen reaction and you see me as taking that choice away.

There's nothing wrong with reacting the way he does in the story. But there are other roads he can travel.... if he chooses to. And who knows what the road will lead to.

I understand what you are saying and I agree that hearing people have their frustrations. Deaf people have the same frustrations that hearing people do but we also have the additional frustration from lack of access to communication and information on a daily basis year after year. It gets draining. That's what Cheri is referring to.

 

[Cheri]

Dharma--

Not that kind of frustrations where we loses our keys, getting on the wrong bus, plane, train. etc. that we are really discussing about in general. The hearing population have no personal experience of a deaf people's world view the identify, shared values and experiences, simply because they've never walked a mile in our shoes, we've experience way more frustrations than any hearing population had experienced. We had struggled to learn lipreading and speech in an education system, we had been refused a job because simply they don't want to hire a deaf person, we have been hung up by hearing people when we are calling to a business, or company or a restaurant through a relay service operator because of their ignorant to understand what a relay service is. I could go on and on, but this pretty much an example of how we experience on a daily basis. This thread is really is about hearing people's attitudes toward the deaf.

 

[shel90]

Dharma--

Not that kind of frustrations where we loses our keys, getting on the wrong bus, plane, train. etc. that we are really discussing about in general. The hearing population have no personal experience of a deaf people's world view the identify, shared values and experiences, simply because they've never walked a mile in our shoes, we've experience way more frustrations than any hearing population had experienced. We had struggled to learn lipreading and speech in an education system, we had been refused a job because simply they don't want to hire a deaf person, we have been hung up by hearing people when we are calling to a business, or company or a restaurant through a relay service operator because of their ignorant to understand what a relay service is. I could go on and on, but this pretty much an example of how we experience on a daily basis. This thread is really is about hearing people's attitudes toward the deaf.

Right...no hearing people will ever understand what it is like no matter how involved they are with deaf people. Even my hubby, my own soulmate, will never understand. At least he doesnt tell me how I should handle my daily frustrations.

Gosh, even today (because my HA is broken), I had trouble understanding the cashier at the store about my debit card. She was saying that I needed to make a $10 purchase to use my debit card and I was having trouble understanding her so I asked her to repeat pls and she started yelling at me. Just another day of dealing with ignorance hearing people, no pun intended.

 

[Dharma]

Dharma--

Not that kind of frustrations where we loses our keys, getting on the wrong bus, plane, train. etc. that we are really discussing about in general. The hearing population have no personal experience of a deaf people's world view the identify, shared values and experiences, simply because they've never walked a mile in our shoes, we've experience way more frustrations than any hearing population had experienced. We had struggled to learn lipreading and speech in an education system, we had been refused a job because simply they don't want to hire a deaf person, we have been hung up by hearing people when we are calling to a business, or company or a restaurant through a relay service operator because of their ignorant to understand what a relay service is. I could go on and on, but this pretty much an example of how we experience on a daily basis. This thread is really is about hearing people's attitudes toward the deaf.

I'm going to differ with your opinion of frustration. To me, it's all the same emotionally and everyone in this thread wants me to buy in that the Deaf community suffers more than anyone else. Sort of like: Well you have your cross to bear but look at ours. You'd never understand. And the 'you'd never understand' is there just to shut me up. That's what it feels like to me.

That seems to be the Golden Cow in this thread. The 'Do not touch' item of the community. I get the feeling this thread is saying "you are hearing and you haven't suffered as much as I have or ever will". It has a silent sacredness.

Is that Deaf culture? I think not. What is that then? Pride? A source of identity? (and Cheri, I'm not pointing this right at you, I'm thinking out loud here)

This thread is really is about hearing people's attitudes toward the deaf.

Ok, Cheri, it's your thread. I think I've been understood by a few in here. I will not derail your thread any longer. I've learned something today, kind of in a negative way. Something I really didn't expect to see.

I will say there is a lot of unconsciousness in the hearing world for the deaf world. Since I've been taking ASL I've been aware of what information I get through sound and what comes through sight. As Shel mentioned, all media is pretty lacking and I see that. And as you mentioned Cheri, access to jobs is very tough and there are simple things that would take 2 seconds to train employees on to make interactions go smoother.

 

[Dharma]

I understand what you are saying and I agree that hearing people have their frustrations. Deaf people have the same frustrations that hearing people do but we also have the additional frustration from lack of access to communication and information on a daily basis year after year. It gets draining. That's what Cheri is referring to.

Thanks for understanding. I guess things stay frustrating because you don't see a lot of change year after year. We have all this technology available to us and changes happening everywhere else in life, but not in what matters to you.

 

[Liza]

They should do a reality show on the daily life of a Deaf person.. or do Big Brother type of thing, stick a bunch of deafies in the same house..... *buying popcorn*

 

[jillio]

You both think I'm patronizing you? I'm not.

I don't feel sorry for you or anything. The suggestions above about attitude and choosing responses are things I work on with my friends/classmates/clients all the time. I'm not giving you anything different than I'd give someone else.

You say I cannot understand what it's like to be Deaf... I don't need to know because I'm not talking about deafness. I'm talking about how the character "Joe" could resolve his frustrations and sadness inside differently than 99% of the world. I'm addressing an emotional issue, not a deaf culture one. Do you see the difference?

I'm not telling him how to deal with deafness, but you keep looping around and making what I say about deafness.



I'm sorry if people of the past have been real a-holes on this board and make everyone defensive. I deal with the emotional aspects of people. I know my shit. That's my attitude. That's my forte. I have been there, done that, over and over again. The OP was no epiphany. It works. We can choose to disagree on that.

Thank you for the welcome, Chase.

Actually Dharma, I wouldn't have used the word patronizing. Paternalistic, perhaps. And, BTW, I'm hearing.

Perhaps you aren't talking about deafness, but the OP was. That is the whole point. And what works in one situation does not work in all situations. If you think you can ignore the issue of deafness when advising a deaf client, then I would suggest that you don't know your "shit", as you put it, quite as well as you think you do. Cultural context is everything, and no individual can be seen outside of that cultural context. That is where you are making your mistake. Even with your explanation earlier of choice theory, and a poor application of confrontational Gestalt techniques, you have failed to take into account cultural context. And if you are planning to communicate with Deaf/deaf people; which is no doubt a safe assumption given your statement that you are taking ASL classes and have found your way to a deaf message board; I would also suggest, rather than insisting that you don't need to know what it is to be deaf, you take the time to learn what it is to be deaf. It will certainly improve the relationships you are able to develop with deaf individuals, and therefore, make any communication attempts more valuable. The way you are currently approaching people is serving to alientate.

And here's a little Gestalt for you: rather that blaming the deaf members of this board for the reactions you got, perhaps you would do well to look at what you did to create those reactions. Andhere's some choice theory: choose to take responsibility for that which you create, even unwittingly.

 

[VamPyroX]

Mod Note:

Enough with member-to-member posting. If you have something further to discuss in this thread, keep it neutral and on topic... not towards one another. If you have to keep it up between each other, do it in PM. Thanks.

 

[doh]

I'm curious how one should allow themselves to feel when the hearing population refuses to put noticeboards up to announce train platform changes. This has happened to me, too! Luckily I saw the people waiting for the train all walk away at once (I started to spend more energy to hear to the tannoy then).

Anyways... good blog post. "Joe" (or "doh") can be HOH too!

 

[Dharma]

I'm curious how one should allow themselves to feel when the hearing population refuses to put noticeboards up to announce train platform changes.

The answer is however you want to feel.

But from the way your question is phrased, It'd be hard not to feel victimized.

 

[Chase]

The answer is however you want to feel.

But from the way your question is phrased, It'd be hard not to feel victimized.

Dharma, please scroll back to VamPyroX's general warning to members. Doh made a general statement of experiences, and you responded with critical personal references.

I'm sure it's not necessary to define ad hominem and how that type of bickering is not good discussion.

Please let this be a second warning to everyone in this thread to ease back on the attack attitude.

 

[kimpossible]

i don't mean to drift from the topic that's ensued at this point, but going back to the original post, i have to disagree somewhat. maybe i missed the point entirely, i'm not really trying to stir a forum-wide debate or whatever, so just bear with me because i'm throwing out random thoughts. I don't really understand what implies that hearing people, in a world where the majority of people were deaf, would feel excluded from conversations and the like. why wouldnt the hearing people just assimilate and learn ASL? furthermore, is this a world where blind people don't exist? in a world where ASL was the dominant language, blind people would feel exiled from the vast majority of group conversations, much like deaf people are excluded from hearing people's group conversations, because the signers would probably be going too quickly and signing at the same time and the blind person would only be able to focus on one person's hands at a time. and then there are plenty of other things going on... loudspeakers are the dismay of deaf people while most signs and visual cues are that of blind people (just in the broad sense), etc etc. if we're going to talk about some kind of a utopia (i know that wasn't the point of the OP though) or something it'd have to be one where everyone was deaf and sighted, or everyone was hearing and sighted, or everyone was hearing and blind, or maybe all the people had no hearing and no vision (and no diabetes) and no communication and all they did was stick their tongues in bowls of chocolate all day and they all lived happily ever after. okay well i've rambled on a bit much now.

 

[jillio]

i don't mean to drift from the topic that's ensued at this point, but going back to the original post, i have to disagree somewhat. maybe i missed the point entirely, i'm not really trying to stir a forum-wide debate or whatever, so just bear with me because i'm throwing out random thoughts. I don't really understand what implies that hearing people, in a world where the majority of people were deaf, would feel excluded from conversations and the like. why wouldnt the hearing people just assimilate and learn ASL? furthermore, is this a world where blind people don't exist? in a world where ASL was the dominant language, blind people would feel exiled from the vast majority of group conversations, much like deaf people are excluded from hearing people's group conversations, because the signers would probably be going too quickly and signing at the same time and the blind person would only be able to focus on one person's hands at a time. and then there are plenty of other things going on... loudspeakers are the dismay of deaf people while most signs and visual cues are that of blind people (just in the broad sense), etc etc. if we're going to talk about some kind of a utopia (i know that wasn't the point of the OP though) or something it'd have to be one where everyone was deaf and sighted, or everyone was hearing and sighted, or everyone was hearing and blind, or maybe all the people had no hearing and no vision (and no diabetes) and no communication and all they did was stick their tongues in bowls of chocolate all day and they all lived happily ever after. okay well i've rambled on a bit much now.

Well, I think this was more of a rhetorical "what if" than an actual. You are correct that in communiity of majority deaf, the hearing would assimilate to the deaf way, as has been demonstrated in Martha's Vineyard, and various other deaf communities such as those found in Bali and Mexico. All speak sign language from birth, including the hearing. It is difficult to even tell who is deaf and who is hearing. But the reverse doesn't work in practice (deaf assimmilating into hearing culture) because the deaf can't fully assimilate, while the hearing can. Many deaf are prevented from becoming fully assimilated by their deafness. They simply can't live completely and fully in a sound based culture. The hearing, however, can easily adapt to the silent way of life.

 

[Chase]

Agreed. As for Kimpossible's random thought about a blind minority in an imagined society where the majority is deaf, I would think much more and varied uses of braille would be one of the solutions. Sign-to-braille interpreters in classes, courts, and churches would be the norm, don't you think?

At any rate, I'm sure the inaudists would be the bad guys and not the audists.

Hearies would be left behind in employment, left out of work and social conversations, have to wander off with their fingers tired and feel alone because those damned inaudists won't speak when it's so easy to learn.

Maybe if the hearies would just suck it up try harder . . .