Leptospirosis Disease in Dogs

VacationGuy234 said:
You can try to use the alternative methods, but this is not a jumping on the couch problem. If he is letting the dog out side by itself, pleasure training is not going to work.

I've seen both sides of the training debate and I'm not against either method, but given the situation, time of of the essence here.
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I am a she and I never let my dogs out on their owns. Especially Marty as he is a small dog and we have a coyote that lives around here.
 
dogmom said:
:)yeah, VacationGuy, another thread is a good idea-

whatdidyousay, am glad you're thinking about other ways of training besides threatening or physically responding tothe dog, especially if Marty comes from an abusive situation.

I can understand that you're worried about Marty eating the rabbit turds - and since they're often so small and hidden, it can be hard to catch him eating them every time.
do you have any interest in looking for a holistic vet to work with you and your current vet?

here's couple other articles on Lepto:
Leptospirosis

and

Leptospirosis in Dogs and Cats: Symptoms and Vaccinations | PetMeds Blog
this was written by a vet
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I called a holistic vet and I could not afford it plus Marty regular vet. I am glad someone understand that is hard to catch Marty every time he eat rabbit poop. He leave it when I tell him to and I have him on a leash at all time and can have him walk away from it.
 
RacherBunny said:
when i worked in a vets office, we always tried to get people to vaccinate for lepto.

most of the cases we got of lepto, the poor dogs were so far along it was hard to get them back to health again. it was very hard for the clients (most of them any way) and staff to see the poor animals in so much pain.... and i won't even mention the money aspect for treatment.

i think you getting your dog vaccinated also depends on the area you live in. i know baltimore md isn't a good area for dogs to not be vaccinated in. so i would try to find statistics for your area if you can.
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That is a good idea! I live in Massachusetts I bring Marty to park that has a duck pond and let him walk around the pond but I do not let him in the water. I also bring Marty to the woods which he loves , he keep his little nose to the ground most of the time smelling all those wonderful animals senses.
 
Leptospirosis in Dogs How They Catch It, How We Cure It, How We Prevent It



It said dogs can get this from swimming in water that is used by wildlife a lot.
A lot of dog owners let their dogs swim in the duck pond that is really gross, the city has to treat the water as is get so bad. And people let their kids play around the pond and pick up the pebbles near the edge of the pond to throw at the ducks or into the water!! Then they go feed their lunch!! And what is really funny about this people are complaining about dogs poop on the ground
and they're letting their kids play in the duck pond!!
 
I called a holistic vet and I could not afford it plus Marty regular vet. I am glad someone understand that is hard to catch Marty every time he eat rabbit poop
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.

In our modern times of chemical/artificial/ any kind of additives overload
I honestly appreciate alternative approach, so thus holistic, too.

However, avoiding or reducing the number of rabies vaccine
is IMO playing Russian roulette with your pet's life.

I agree that at one point, like in everything, the greedy veterinarians
went too far with
vaccinating out pets left and right but certain vaccines should be always kept up to date -
- rabies, distemper, parvovirus, parainfluenza are a must.
These however doesn't have to be given EVERY YEAR.
I do not vaccine my dog every year, never did, thanks to my excellent vet who is not holistic or other alternative btw - just a great, honest,
animal doctor!!


Now, depends where you live, you need to consider giving your pet
also a de-worming stuff,
because some worms such a heartworm can be deadly even when killed. the dead worm can still stop the heart,
yes, that is why it's always better to prevent that from happening.

If in your area are living raccoons, and rats, and like you say - rabbits -
and other wild animals
I think it's only a common sense to apply vaccine as often as it is required.
Not only you protect your own dog, but also you prevent the potential epidemic from happening.

interesting read:
PETS DON'T NEED SHOTS EVERY YEAR
Canine Heartworms: Heartworm Testing & Disease in Dogs, Puppies
Dog Vaccinations, Puppy Vaccinations: Affordable Pet Health by Luv My Pet Clinics
Some vaccines can be boostered every three (3) years.


Fuzzy
 
VacationGuy234 said:
I apologize.

I thought because of what you said here he goes in the back yard on his own. Well, if you are with him all the time you should be able to correct the behavior.
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Marty is a very funny little dog , he keep his nose to the ground a lot and I never know if just smelling the ground or looking for poop! Those rabbits sure do poop a lot!
 
:wave:Audiofuzzy, actually current learning theory and vet behaviorists have this to say-

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/dr-nicholas-dodman.html
<as an example, this is what he wrote: "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.">

The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Dr Patricia Khuly - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN

IAABC (behaviorists) - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

and yes, they are outdated - he's using the idea of "pack structure" based on a incorrect/faulty extrapolation about wolf packs, which do not behave the same as groups of dogs. The specific wolf pack that started all this "punishment and heirachy" stuff was a captive pack of adult wolves, which also behave differently than wild wolves that are related to each other.

It is true that what he does "works" - because he is very physically skilled, strong, good timing - most people don't have that. But there are other ways of getting the same results - just not as flashy-looking, and it takes longer than even what the editing takes out of the footage that gets on the program.

it's not a matter of disagreeing - I've worked with various other trainers and people who do have the training and background to call themselves "behaviorists" <which CM does not> and among us, we do sometimes disagree. But this issue is about what is scientifically, behaviorally "sound" vs. what is not.

Behavior abhors a vacuum so even if something is punished out of a dog, for the physically "average" dog-owning person - eventually something else will result and it will likely be of the same or worse magnitude, just manifest differently.
The dog that he supposedly "saved" will then again be in danger of euthanasia, because the TRUE issue was never addressed and the dog was never taught to learn to have a different emotional response or a different coping technique.
 
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Audiofuzzy,

am also glad you don't vaccinate every year and it seems you've done some research on it:)
I also do the 3-yr.Rabies vaccine.

Parvo is NOT a must though for previously vaccinated dogs - you can titer for immunity which is what I do.
here's a link to statement by Dr. Ronald Schultz from the Dpt. of Patho-Biological Sciences at UW-Madison about duration of immunity for vaccines: Duration of Immunity
 
We do the 3-year rabies vaccine. That is the most common, now, I think, especially if your dog has consistently gotten his shots on that schedule.

We have two vets: one in Alexandria and one at our beach house in Nags Head. Both are "traditional" practices, more or less, but we can always talk about what vaccines the dogs are getting. For instance, the Alexandria vet recommends bordatella; I would prefer not to get it, but since they are poodles, they are groomed frequently and thus are in contact with other dogs in an enclosed environment on a regular basis. That's a situation where bordatella could be transmitted.

I would like to make the rabies shot less painful and the aftereffects shorter for Pippin (Casey doesn't have any problem). Realistically, though, considering his age, he probably will only have one or two more in lis life, considering the 3 year interval and that he is likely closing in on being 10 years old now anyway.
 
and yes, they are outdated - he's using the idea of "pack structure" based on a incorrect/faulty extrapolation about wolf packs, which do not behave the same as groups of dogs.
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I really doubt Milan bases his observation on wolfs, however- since he has his own behavioral center and for so long,
he is perfectly capable to observe his own dogs, and plenty of it.

Let's make however one thing crystal clear, at the start.
Dominance is not violence nor abuse. And hierarchy does exist.

I had two dogs - no way no how dominance, hierarchy does not exist between at least two individuals, let alone more.
Whoever says otherwise is only fooling himself.

Cesar Milan's methods are based on flooding and punishment.
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He does use flooding techniques at times, but only on the dogs who need these.
If you watch his shows carefully, you will see he does not use
a "one size fits all" method but absolutely chose to best tailor any given dog.

As for punishment, he hardly, if ever, punishes the dog- ever.

Milan method is to PREVENT undesirable behavior from happening in the first place.

The neck finger correction, the side "kick", the leash side tug - these are NOT punishment but quick movements made to break the dog's focus.
These are NOT painful to the dog, and not intended to be.
They are intended to be surprise, and they are.
And they do work if applied correctly.

The dog that he supposedly "saved" will then again be in danger of euthanasia, because the TRUE issue was never addressed and the dog was never taught to learn to have a different emotional response or a different coping technique.
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I am not sure if you are aware of what are you actually saying - the dogs Milan saves from sure deaths are the dogs that other
behaviorists and veterinarians declared as un-rehabilitative.

These dogs are already as good as dead, their last chance is Cesar.
And the reason they were behaving so badly is because nobody previously addressed what was wrong with them.

Milan was the first who took time to first observe these dogs, to take
the time what was going on with them -
hence, precisely address the "true issue" as you say ,
see the way they behave, find the source of aggression,
and actually he took all the time to rehabilitate these damaged dogs.

See, that's just the kick - the rehabilitation wasn't QUICK as it seem to be on TV
- it took considerable time to re-train these dogs.
It often took place in Milan's center, and sometimes it took months before he decided the dog is ready to be released back to his owners.
Furthermore, at the center these dogs were taught precisely the new behavior and new copying responses - the very things you accuse Milan
of not providing.
But the most important thing is how Milan educates and encourages the very owners on how to care and train their dogs from now on
so the the things won't go back to bad as they were before.
Sometimes he even suggest to the owner to give up the current dog as incompatible with his owner personality and adopt another, more suitable.

If if you ever really saw any Milan's show, but like REALLY saw, you should have been able to clearly see these things for yourself -
if you don't,
then I I would like you to encourage you to watch and see without any prejudice this time around.



Fuzzy
 
before I knew better I watched his show many times.
and dominance the way he is using it is a myth.
Dominance is fluid behavior, not a trait.
He is basing it <dominance> on the outdated idea of it AS a trait that was based on the faulty information I explained previously.

Wolves and dogs have different types of heirarchies or structures and they are not linear and static, the way he is using it.

Flooding is a technique based on fear and shutting the animal down so they have no other way of dealing with the situation.
That isn't rehabilitation - that is avoiding the actual problem.

He -may- save a a few dogs temporarily from immediate death but he in doing so he uses fear and avoidance as a way of getting what he wants - and that doesn't change the actual issue so at some point, later, somewhere with someone else - a new behavior is likely to emerge that eventually may be just as dangerous in the long run.

I know the "rehab" wasn't quick as seen on tv. That's not the point. True change that affects the actual emotional state of the dog and how they operate in the world takes time. What he's done is take a dog and figuratively tied them up in a locked room with no stimulation or other ability and said - "dammit now do it my way because I am more powerful than you, or you'll be stuck in this room this way forever".
That's not training or learning. That's fear and power.
 
To be fair here, Milan's supporters are trainers as well. I think the fact is that behavior is very complex and I don't think one method alone will work.

On topic, have you thought about putting up a fence to keep the bunnies out?
 
we could move - or ask mod's to move - the "training debate" to it's own section-

I like the idea of a fence but what about rabbits digging....am wondering if there are plants naturally repellant to rabbits that would reduce the chances of them coming in. I honestly don't know much about eating habits of wild rabbits beyond they "like plants".
If that and a fence would be useful?


BG, the 3 yr. vaccine is much more common but some states still require the 1 yr. and many times traditional vets will automatically re-vaccinate during the routine Spring exam, unless the client questions them or asks them not to.
 
dogmom said:
we could move - or ask mod's to move - the "training debate" to it's own section-

I like the idea of a fence but what about rabbits digging....am wondering if there are plants naturally repellant to rabbits that would reduce the chances of them coming in. I honestly don't know much about eating habits of wild rabbits beyond they "like plants".
If that and a fence would be useful?


BG, the 3 yr. vaccine is much more common but some states still require the 1 yr. and many times traditional vets will automatically re-vaccinate during the routine Spring exam, unless the client questions them or asks them not to.
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Virginia must be one of the more enlightened states, then. 3 years is the standard here.

NC might have different rules. It happened that one of my dogs came due for his rabies shot while we were at the beach, so I took him to our vet there. Because they did not have prior records of his vaccinations (because they had been done in VA), she was going to give a 1 year shot. I just showed her the documentation from our VA vet and she said "OK" and gave him a shot valid for 3 years.

She told me that the type and amount of vaccine is exactly the same (interesting, no??), but if it is not given regularly every 3 years, the immunity needs to be re-upped, or something like that.

I might not be quoting her exactly, so please don't dump on her statement if it's not exactly right - I might not be remembering accurately. Anyway, that was the gist of it, and that they could not verify 3 years' worth of protection without prior evidence of regular shots.
 
:hmm:yeah I do think various cities/towns even within the same state -can- have different ordinances or "traditions" when it comes to vaccines. Not all vets are open to changing protocol even if they are aware of it.

Here is link to Rabies Challenge Fund: http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/ which does mention various state's changes in policy and also offers a "safer pet vaccination DVD" <sidebar; new to me, haven't seen it>.
 
Wolves and dogs have different types of heirarchies or structures and they are not linear and static, the way he is using it.
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And I agree, they might and probably do,
still they both have hierarchies - everybody do :)

what about what I've said - Milan has his own dogs to observe, though?

and everywhere is a leader, and the underdog :)

Let's agree to disagree :)

Fuzzy
 
Well we have one less rabbit in our yard. When I took Marty out today for him
to play, Marty was on his leash as always, I found lumps of rabbit fur all over the lawn!! A baby rabbit would eat in the same spot every night I guess a hawk or coyote got it.
 
VacationGuy234 said:
To be fair here, Milan's supporters are trainers as well. I think the fact is that behavior is very complex and I don't think one method alone will work.

On topic, have you thought about putting up a fence to keep the bunnies out?
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I live in a condo and I would not be allowed to put a fence up and if I could it would get plowed down when the driveway is being plowed.
 
Fuzzy - ok:)

whatdidyousay! oh, that's too bad about the fence!
I've found parts and clumps of fur in our yard too when the dogs haven't been out and have seen loose cats around and once an owl; sometimes hawks - rabbits have many predators.
 
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