IVF and multiples. Is it right?

[deafskeptic]

I'm in favor of IVF, but with limits on how many embryos are placed inside the women's uterus.

Ditto here. I don't even want to think about having to raise 8 children of the same age. That's just too much.

 

[overthepond]

Not going to read the whole thing, I would get straight to the point of my decision,

I am for IVF only if you have a secure background and that the implantation of embroyos are limited. I think 2/3 IVF live children is enough depending on single/multiples.

I don't agree with selective abortion though, if i happen to have 4 babies out of 2 embryos implanted at same time i would keep all providing I won't go on to have more children. But i would consider if it's more than 4.

I don't agree with that the fact the mother already had 6 children, no secure home, no money that went ahead to have IVF while she already had 6 children. These 8 newborns is going to live on taxpayers money.

 

[dreama]

I prefer 2. That way, if one of the embryos doesn't make it, the other one still has a chance. If it was limited to 1, half the time, the woman won't have a chance at having a baby. That's why they implant more than 1, to give the woman a better chance at a baby. I just think anything more than 2 is too much. Twins are fine.

I agree.

I've read that doctor who did Nadya also did this older women with seven embryo's. She's now pregnant with Quadruplets. It seems really wrong to me. Also another woman who was implanted with lots of embyo's was done so as long as she agreed to selective reduction if too many embryo's took. I think that's a really cruel thing to do as there is a chance of the other babies getting killed with selective reductions, and beside you probably already know my views on abortion.

 

[dreama]

I don't agree with selective abortion though, if i happen to have 4 babies out of 2 embryos implanted at same time i would keep all

Same here. I think that the women have a terrible decision to make and they are often pressurized into abortion if they have too many embryo's.

I was reading a blog by this woman who gave birth to quintuplets. She had to change her doctor because the original doctor kept trying to presurize her into 'selective reduction' which was against her beliefs.

 

[dreama]

I've just read interesting article about IVF and selective reduction. Please note that I don't really agree with everything in this article because it's not pro life and they try to make a distinction between selective reduction and abortion where I feel none exists but I think it shows an interesting insight into how the IVF buisness is run.

Duke Journal of Gender Law & Policy: Stacey Pinchuk, A Difficult Choice in a Different Voice: Multiple Births, Selective Reduction and Abortion, 7 Duke J. of Gender L. & Pol'y 29 (2000)

 

[jillio]

Actually, this article has nothing to do with the way IVF clinics are run. It is about the application of current law to selctive reduction procedures and the way in which women cognitively frame the dilemma prior to making a decision.

 

[Babyblue]

Actually, this article has nothing to do with the way IVF clinics are run. It is about the application of current law to selctive reduction procedures and the way in which women cognitively frame the dilemma prior to making a decision.

I think a woman that is going to be implanted as I stated here or in another thread. She would need a background check and credit check. Due to the risk of having multiples. She would need to be fully aware of the risk taken in doing so.

People have to go through courts to adopt. so I feel a person that wants to be implanted should be processed the same way.

I know it sounds harsh. The only reason why I am saying this, because they are at risk of having multiple pregnancy.

 

[jillio]

I think a woman that is going to be implanted as I stated here or in another thread. She would need a background check and credit check. Due to the risk of having multiples. She would need to be fully aware of the risk taken in doing so.

People have to go through courts to adopt. so I feel a person that wants to be implanted should be processed the same way.

I know it sounds harsh. The only reason why I am saying this, because they are at risk of having multiple pregnancy.

I think most clinics are doing a good job of screenig patients. The doctor that implant the Suleman woman has been in trouble with the board before. He obviously was not an ethical practitioner in any sense of the word. In fact, she would have failed the screening at any ethical clinic. She no doubt used this particular practitioner because a reputable one wouldn't have touched her case with a 10 foot pole.

 

[Babyblue]

I think most clinics are doing a good job of screenig patients. The doctor that implant the Suleman woman has been in trouble with the board before. He obviously was not an ethical practitioner in any sense of the word. In fact, she would have failed the screening at any ethical clinic. She no doubt used this particular practitioner because a reputable one wouldn't have touched her case with a 10 foot pole.

True,

I do agree. Why punish mothers that are financially able to do this, through the court process.

The Practitioners are the ones that needs to be looked into. Making sure they are following the proper ethics and procedures.

Again the ones that have not followed it should be paying for it. Not the tax payers.

I wonder if this falls into a malpractice suit.

She might have a good chance in that one.

 

[dreama]

NEW YORK – The California fertility doctor who implanted the octuplet mom with lots of embryos was no lone wolf: Fewer than 20 percent of U.S. clinics follow professional guidelines on how many embryos should be used for younger women. "Clearly, most programs are not adhering to the guidelines," said Dr. Bradley Van Voorhis, director of the fertility clinic at the University of Iowa.

The furor over Nadya Suleman and her octuplets has brought scrutiny to U.S. fertility clinics and how well they observe the guidelines, which are purely voluntary. The controversy had led to talk of passing laws to regulate clinics, something that has already been done in Western Europe.

"There are enough clinics that quite openly flout professional guidelines that we really do need to start thinking about public policy in this area," said Marcy Darnovsky of the Oakland, Calif.-based Center for Genetics and Society, a public interest group. "I think it's way overdue."

The 20 percent figure is contained in reports filed by clinics with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Fertility doctors say there are many reasons clinics skirt the guidelines: pressure from patients who want to use more embryos to improve their chances of getting pregnant; financial concerns from those who are paying for their treatment out of their own pockets; and the competition among clinics to post good success rates.

And the only penalty for violating the guidelines is expulsion from some of the industry's professional organizations, though that can affect whether insurance companies will cover a clinic's treatments.

"You have patients who are desperate and you have doctors who are driven by success rates. It's not a good combination," said Pamela Madsen, founder and former head of the American Fertility Association.

When the guidelines were issued in 1996 by the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, the intent was to cut down the number of multiple births, particularly triplets and higher, that can result when many embryos are implanted and more than one takes. Big multiple births can lead to disastrous, life-threatening complications, lifelong disabilities such as cerebral palsy, and crushing medical costs.

The guidelines suggest how many embryos doctors should use, with the number varying by age and other factors. They also allow for some flexibility for more if previous attempts have failed or the embryo quality is poor.

"These decisions are complex and need to be individualized, which is why we strongly believe that guidelines are better than hard rules," said Dr. David Adamson, a former president of the reproductive medicine society.

The group credits the guidelines with reducing triplets and higher multiple pregnancies from 7 percent of attempts to 2 percent in 2006. Nearly two-thirds of the procedures involved four or more embryos in 1996; that has fallen to 16 percent.

But for women under 35, government records show that just 83 of 426 clinics followed the guidance calling for one and no more than two embryos. The average for fresh embryos (as opposed to frozen) implanted in women in that age group ranged from a 1.4 to 4.8. The vast majority of the clinics averaged between two and three embryos.

Dr. Mousa Shamonki, director of the IVF program at the University of California, Los Angeles, said his patients frequently ask for more embryos to boost their chances of getting pregnant. He tells patients that it's not OK to end up with triplets or even twins.

"The only thing that happens when you add additional embryos is you're increasing the multiple pregnancy rate," he said. "You're rarely increasing the overall pregnancy rate significantly."

The UCLA program had one of the highest transfer rates in 2006 for younger women. That rate — 3.5 embryos per cycle — matched that of the West Coast IVF Clinic in Beverly Hills, Calif., where Suleman was treated. Shamonki said changes he implemented after he took over drove down UCLA's rate to 2.1 embryos the next year.

Fertility specialists have attacked Suleman's doctor, Michael Kamrava, for using so many embryos. Suleman, 33, has said she had six embryos implanted; two presumably split. She said she refused selective abortion to reduce the number, which is a common option in such cases. Kamrava has declined requests for interviews.

The reproductive medicine society and the Medical Board of California are looking into the case.

Europe has brought down transfer rates and multiple births through laws and voluntary agreements. England and Sweden have laws barring more than two embryo transfers for younger women.

In Sweden, "we have a slogan: One at a time," said Dr. Karl Nygren, former head of an IVF monitoring committee for the European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology.

Seventy percent of in vitro fertilization procedures in Sweden involved only a single embryo in 2005, according to Nygren. For Europe, the average was 20 percent. By contrast, only 11 percent in the U.S. involved one embryo in 2006.

A key difference, though, is that health programs in Europe cover the cost, so that if one attempt fails, women can try again without having to worry about the expense.

In the U.S., most patients have to foot the bill for IVF, which costs about $12,400 per attempt. Only 14 states make insurers cover some infertility treatments.

AP IMPACT: Most fertility clinics break the rules

 

[jillio]

True,

I do agree. Why punish mothers that are financially able to do this, through the court process.

The Practitioners are the ones that needs to be looked into. Making sure they are following the proper ethics and procedures.

Again the ones that have not followed it should be paying for it. Not the tax payers.

I wonder if this falls into a malpractice suit.

She might have a good chance in that one.

I doubt that she would ever win a malpractice suit in this one. But, he is likely to loose his license when the board is done with him.

 

[jillio]

AP IMPACT: Most fertility clinics break the rules

Between 2 and 3, and 6 is a huge difference.

Fertility specialists have attacked Suleman's doctor, Michael Kamrava, for using so many embryos. Suleman, 33, has said she had six embryos implanted; two presumably split. She said she refused selective abortion to reduce the number, which is a common option in such cases.