It's Not Deaf Genocide, It's Evolution of Deaf Society

[Nesmuth]

I see the deaf community is evolving into a new society that is more interfaceable with the hearing society.

We have cochlear implant technology along with oral deaf education leading the deaf society as we know it into a new society where deaf people can interface with the hearing society on their own without the dependence on the 'big deaf industries' that cash in on our special needs.

The ASL hardliners are going about the change the same way the oil industry goes about electric cars. With the ASL hardliners having zero abilities to prevent deaf kids from getting their hearing screened, getting the implants , and being raised in an oral environment, it's safe to say that resistance is futile at this evolution of our deaf society.

Any comments?

Richard Roehm

 

[Megladon]

I see the deaf community is evolving into a new society that is more interfaceable with the hearing society.

We have cochlear implant technology along with oral deaf education leading the deaf society as we know it into a new society where deaf people can interface with the hearing society on their own without the dependence on the 'big deaf industries' that cash in on our special needs.

The ASL hardliners are going about the change the same way the oil industry goes about electric cars. With the ASL hardliners having zero abilities to prevent deaf kids from getting their hearing screened, getting the implants , and being raised in an oral environment, it's safe to say that resistance is futile at this evolution of our deaf society.

Any comments?

Richard Roehm

I believe your entire post to be incredibly retarted. Short of something life threatning no one can make you have anything done to your children, and even then its 50/50 because you can site religous beliefs. What is so wrong about having your childrens hearing tested? Same with the implant, what is so wrong about it? If you dont like it then fine, dont get it, but dont think less about someone else because they make a choice to hear. Your post is way off target, and you take the "they are coming to get us" approach. Its not going to happen, and if you wanna stay deaf, then fine stay deaf, i dont care, i'm happy how i am, and i dont care how you are. Maybe if more people took that approach, i'm happy how i am, and you can do whatever you wanna do so long as it doesnt step on my rights, then we'd all be a little better off.

 

[VamPyroX]

If we're screwed, then I'd have to say that these deaf people who get CI's and "screw deaf culture" are actually nobody.

 

[Youens]

Megladon,

I would have to agree with Richard to the extent. It is not about staying deaf or seeing the idea of implanation as a threat to our very culture. Although I cannot speak for others, but at some degree, I have to admit that I see the evolution of using cochlear implants as a form of abuse.

There are so many parents out there who honestly do not know what to do after finding that their children are deaf. It is safe to say that they often do not make informed decisions regarding to cochlear implants.

While it is nothing wrong to choose the best possible option there is for our deaf children, it seems that many parents fail to realize that cochlear implants are in fact a temporary problem to a permanent problem. Improving one person's ability to hear can only go far, even with our latest wonderful technologies.

Based on my research, the average hearing person has well over 200 channels to hear and the best cochlear implants we have today can only go up to 27 channels and even so, not everyone can benefit all 27 channels.

It is like trying to achive the impossiblity and while focusing on the child's weakest link, it can do a lot of damage to the child's self-esteem.

That is very reason why I do not support cochlear implants. It's like giving many of these parents false hope or false sense of security.

More than 20 years ago, hearing aid was huge fad, something short of wonderful American dream. My parents thought they were doing me a favor by enrolling me in oral program, urging me to wear hearing aid and forbidding any of my chance to use sign language and ASL was considered a big NO-NO, even today. I had to endure many intensive speech and audoritary training sessions. It often made me feel miserable and incomplete for not being able to "catch up."

When my parents finally agreed to let me go to deaf boarding school for my high school years after years of persuasion on my part, it was like a dream finally comes true. Everyone speaks a language where I can understand without any possible misunderstandings or awkwardnesses. The best part is that, as my ASL becomes more fluent, my writing skill soared.

I honestly wish more people would open their minds and see ASL as a wonderful addition, not as a threat or substractive language that causes a child to be confused or weaker the child's ability to excel when it comes to learning English.

On the final note, while many of you may benefit from wearing cochlear implants, it is important to acknowledge ASL or American Sign Language is indeed a language and no one loses when it comes to learn a new language, right?

My two cent worth....

 

[Frisky Feline]

Megladon,

I would have to agree with Richard to the extent. It is not about staying deaf or seeing the idea of implanation as a threat to our very culture. Although I cannot speak for others, but at some degree, I have to admit that I see the evolution of using cochlear implants as a form of abuse.

There are so many parents out there who honestly do not know what to do after finding that their children are deaf. It is safe to say that they often do not make informed decisions regarding to cochlear implants.

While it is nothing wrong to choose the best possible option there is for our deaf children, it seems that many parents fail to realize that cochlear implants are in fact a temporary problem to a permanent problem. Improving one person's ability to hear can only go far, even with our latest wonderful technologies.

Based on my research, the average hearing person has well over 200 channels to hear and the best cochlear implants we have today can only go up to 27 channels and even so, not everyone can benefit all 27 channels.

It is like trying to achive the impossiblity and while focusing on the child's weakest link, it can do a lot of damage to the child's self-esteem.

That is very reason why I do not support cochlear implants. It's like giving many of these parents false hope or false sense of security.

More than 20 years ago, hearing aid was huge fad, something short of wonderful American dream. My parents thought they were doing me a favor by enrolling me in oral program, urging me to wear hearing aid and forbidding any of my chance to use sign language and ASL was considered a big NO-NO, even today. I had to endure many intensive speech and audoritary training sessions. It often made me feel miserable and incomplete for not being able to "catch up."

When my parents finally agreed to let me go to deaf boarding school for my high school years after years of persuasion on my part, it was like a dream finally comes true. Everyone speaks a language where I can understand without any possible misunderstandings or awkwardnesses. The best part is that, as my ASL becomes more fluent, my writing skill soared.

I honestly wish more people would open their minds and see ASL as a wonderful addition, not as a threat or substractive language that causes a child to be confused or weaker the child's ability to excel when it comes to learning English.

On the final note, while many of you may benefit from wearing cochlear implants, it is important to acknowledge ASL or American Sign Language is indeed a language and no one loses when it comes to learn a new language, right?

My two cent worth....

Very well said. I have to agree too. your situation is similiar as my dh's experiences..

 

[Levonian]

We have cochlear implant technology along with oral deaf education leading the deaf society as we know it into a new society where deaf people can interface with the hearing society on their own without the dependence on the 'big deaf industries' that cash in on our special needs.

Cochlear implantation is just as much a ‘big deaf industry’ as any other commodity or service marketed towards the deaf. Even if you can con the feds and your insurance carrier into paying for most or all of it, have you priced the fucking batteries lately? Wearing your CI all the time costs about as much as a typical tobacco habit—which isn’t cheap these days.

I’m not knocking cochlear implantation—there’s nothing inherently ‘wrong’ with CI’s. But until the technology improves markedly, it’s just single-sided deafness with a 25 db loss on the hearing side—and of course that 25 db figure is stated in terms of pure tone audiometry. That's better than nothing in most people’s opinion, but it's hardly much to write home about. Oralism, even at it’s best, is like trying to figure out what a jigsaw puzzle’s picture is by assembling the puzzle. You can do it that way if you want, and there’s nothing wrong with that approach, but it’s a hell of a lot easier to just look at the picture on the front of the box.

 

[kuifje75]

Actually, a lot of people seem to have misconceptions about the CI process. Some doctors encourage their parents to have their child tested with hearing aids first. If it doesn't seem to work, then they go onto having CIs. I'm really learning a lot from my work as a Deaf Mentor, and some parents actually think differently from what some Deaf militants may think. Some parents have told me that they wanted the best for their child, BUT if their child doesnt want to wear CI that certain day or permanently, then they would respect it. They love the Deaf Culture and try to go to deaf community activities, etc... It's really impressive.

 

[deafdyke]

We have cochlear implant technology along with oral deaf education leading the deaf society as we know it into a new society where deaf people can interface with the hearing society on their own without the dependence on the 'big deaf industries' that cash in on our special needs.

Actually that is inaccurate. Only about 20% of implantees are "oral superstars" and don't need traditional "dhh interventions" Most implantees fall between Superstars and Get No Benifit from Implant. Besides even if virtually all pediatric implantees were superstars, that doesn't negate the fact that implantations come at a huge price....namely increase in health care costs. Sure the implant in and of itself is covered by many insurances, BUT lots of the associated costs aren't covered (like MAPs, batteries, rehab costs, doc appointments and more)

It is like trying to achive the impossiblity and while focusing on the child's weakest link, it can do a lot of damage to the child's self-esteem.

That is very reason why I do not support cochlear implants. It's like giving many of these parents false hope or false sense of security.

On theother hand, implantees are evenly divided between orals and TCers. I don't support oralism (b/c it does mess up a lot of kids self esteem....you would not educate a child who was defienct in math but gifted in English by exlusively concentrating on their defiects in math would you?) I think CIs can be good for some people...there are conditions where hearing aids do not help at all.

More than 20 years ago, hearing aid was huge fad,

Excellent point! High powered hearing aids were THE thing that was going to help deaf kids function in the mainstream even fifteen years ago! Yet gosharootie it really didn't keep dhh kids from learning ASL now did it?

Some doctors encourage their parents to have their child tested with hearing aids first. If it doesn't seem to work, then they go onto having CIs.

As per FDA regulations unless a kid has auditory nereopathy a trial with hearing aids (six months if I recall correctly) is the norm.

I'm really learning a lot from my work as a Deaf Mentor, and some parents actually think differently from what some Deaf militants may think. Some parents have told me that they wanted the best for their child, BUT if their child doesnt want to wear CI that certain day or permanently, then they would respect it. They love the Deaf Culture and try to go to deaf community activities, etc... It's really impressive.

That's true Koufie. There are hearing parents who are OK with Deaf culture and who embrace it as something that can enhance their child's life. I am also somewhat of a Deaf mentor (with a focus on advocating for the right of hoh kids to learn ASL/Sign) and I see a ton of hearing parents be more open to exposing their hoh kids to sign. Matter of fact, I know of at least two little girls who are hoh who are attending schools for the Deaf! And I even know of at least two or three kids with unilateral losses who are attending schools for the deaf!

 

[Megladon]

Youens, i still think your a bit misguided. I could be wrong but i believe there are now more deaf people then ever before, for a "culture" that is vanishing or has its days numbered, it seems to be growing. As far as parents that do things for their children, i cant fault them for wanting whats best for their child. I can understand you felt horrible going to classes that didnt seem to help, and its a shame your parents made you go, but they must have thought it would help in some way or they wouldnt have made you go. For the life of me i just cant understand what people on alldeaf have against being able to hear. Ci's arnt a problem as someone put it, its not a sure fire fix, its not even a unlikely fix, its an aid to help people that would like to be able to hear, and what is really wrong with that if someone wants to hear? I could go into what i feel is the problem, but at this point in the day i'm not up for a fight and would rather not get booted for voicing my oppinion.

 

[Nesmuth]

I could be wrong but i believe there are now more deaf people then ever before, for a "culture" that is vanishing or has its days numbered, it seems to be growing.

Spoken like a cheerful captain of a sinking ship. This exceedingly positive statement and the enthusiasm behind it can be as deadly as the reality faced by deaf society these days.

Richard Roehm

 

[deafdyke]

I could be wrong but i believe there are now more deaf people then ever before, for a "culture" that is vanishing or has its days numbered, it seems to be growing. .

Yes....it's been almost twenty years since the implant was first popularized for children. I remember the oral experts predicted that Deaf culture would be dead by now. That's b/c they thought that only stone deaf people could be culturally Deaf. Richard, I don't think Megleodon is the cheerful captian of a sinking ship. Sure deaf culture has changed...but it's far from dead. Many implantees still identify as Deaf and many orally educated dhh kids will pick up ASL as a second language.

As far as parents that do things for their children, i cant fault them for wanting whats best for their child

I can. I understand wanting the best possible education....but they don't realize that an orally educated kid is very often poorly literate and that a pure oral education can cost a dhh kid precious self-esteem. I am NOT against speech therapy or oral training...very few of us are. We're just wondering why many parents think that it's best for their kid to be in an eternal speech therapy session. Yes, oral skills are valuable....but they shouldn't be the be all and end all of a dhh kid's education! I've noticed that a lot of the parents who choose oral only are still kinda fucked up psychologically speaking about their dhh kid's lack of hearing. Yes there are parents who see it as a cool useful addition to their child's skills , but there are TONS of "healthy normal" "my child doesn't need "speshal needs stuff" parents!

 

[GalaxyAngel]

otherwise, My far concern about CI... I'm not in position ci .. I've seen some of my peepz who has CI.. which there have expense lot of money to have an operation cost and Mapping/Audiogoily/re-call/appointment to attend oralisim/and much more. Feel more increase purity all over your shoulder cost you more unpatience attend.
Hosp/Doctors and others are trying to get your $$$ lot of money and in case future changed better techogly than old ones and have to replace cost you more another operation. Would be more challenge fear?

Hearing Aid still cheaper but not 100% fully of hear as well isn't same of CI's typicial, of course..

How can make Advocacy for DHH/HH cost expense ?? I do not think so! On your own pocket and expense reilable of your insurance whoever willing pay 100% or less whatever depend on insurance cost willing coverage or not.

I do disagree with parent who trying to be child's happy future comes w/ci.. ? Nope..
All expections by parent happy not child!

Depend on child or teenage or Adult whatever, name it.. which there have prodfound Deaf and impossible have ci.. can way possible provide ci will come works ?
"Following up the db of percent"
If course too long way and cost you eating up your expense money.. Isn't fun for challenge ?

btw... Still counts lot of money expense for that..

 

[Megladon]

Spoken like a cheerful captain of a sinking ship. This exceedingly positive statement and the enthusiasm behind it can be as deadly as the reality faced by deaf society these days.

Richard Roehm

Ok, this is my last post to you on this as you are 1 of 2 things, retarted, or doing this to get the thread to continue. I will assume it is the first for now. So your first post it was the end of the deaf world, everyone wants deaf people to be able to hear (not that there is anything wrong with that if it was true) everyone is out to get you and your babys, now reading that there are more deaf people then ever before, better communication between them and a greater sharing of ideas, this is even worse then it was before when you just thought people were out to get you. Please, if your going to do a flip flop like that atleast wait a while, not in your first week.

 

[Boult]

Megladon,

Based on my research, the average hearing person has well over 200 channels to hear and the best cochlear implants we have today can only go up to 27 channels and even so, not everyone can benefit all 27 channels.

I did my own research and gave the answer to one person who though hearing has thousands channels than CI users have. I gave him this answers:
in first email;

Actually I don't think those with normal hearing will have "tens of
thousands" channels... impossible! If so, then we would be designing
stereo systems that does more than 100 channels per speakers.. that
haven't happened yet! hehehe :-D

You might want to read this bit of facts regarding sounds and hearing...
http://www.digital-recordings.com/publ/pubear.html#facts
I'll quote here:
"We have two ears, so one can think,that auditory system is stereo (2
channel), but as a matter of fact sound in each ear is divided into 24
discrete channels called critical bands. Therefore auditory system
(hearing system) acts as 48 - channel system. "


Further info on electrodes and channels can be found here:
http://www.geocities.com/cicentral/channels.html

Then in next email;

Cochlea handles all the frequency ranges, all of frequencies are divided into bands and they are grouped into channels so therefore 24 channels each ear for total of 48 discrete channels like I pointed out in my previous msg. I think you mean "nerves cells" as corti (hair cell that pick up sounds and transmit to auditory nerve (8th nerve) If you flatten the cochlear you divide the frequency ranges into bands and again into channel it would be 24 channels.

and I have come across another information that support my belief.
This from a pdf document on page 9 at http://www.utdallas.edu/~loizou/cimplants/steps.pdf

"Drullman (1995) has also demonstrated that fine temporal cues are not needed when full spectral cues are available. He processed speech into 24 1?4-octave channels, computed the envelopes of each channel, and modulated the envelopes with noise. The processed waveforms had the original speech envelopes but the temporal structure of noise. High speech intelligibility was obtained even when the envelopes were quantized into 2 levels. In his study, however, the normal-hearing listeners had more spectral information (24 channels) compared to the cochlear-implant listeners (at most 6 channels) of this study. Two steps were not enough, in our study, to maintain high consonant recognition. We suspect that a greater number (8) of steps was needed to compensate for the lower spectral resolution. This hypothesis is investigated in Experiment 2."

See the underlined. it confirm my finding that each ear of a normal hearing person has only 24 channels.

Doctors already knew how our hearing systems works. if they don't then CI won't be around or stuck at 1 channel CI model!

and to define the term "channels" http://www.hohadvocates.org/wwwboard/messages/4495.html
"Channel - an adjustable compression ratio that is applied to a range of frequencies. Hearing aids may have only one compression channel or maybe as many as 16. Each channel applies a different ratio of gain:dbHL to a specific range of frequencies. This has the benefit of discretely and dynamically applying the most favorable amount of gain where and when it is needed most."

hope that clears up?

so for the newest Auria HiRes 90K internal implant by Advanced Bionic;
Internal Implant Technical Specifications:

Information update rate: 90,000 updates per second

Stimulation rate: 83,000 pulses per second

Independent output circuits: 16 <----

Information channels: 16 with current HiResolution software <----

Internal Memory

Stimulation Strategies: Simultaneous, partially simultaneous, and non-simultaneous options including HiRes (HiRes-P and HiRes-S) and emulation of MPS and CIS with current software.

Pulsatile or analog waveforms

Monopolar or bipolar coupling (expandable to multi-polar with future software *)

Patented HiFocus Electrode: 16 electrode contacts that are designed to focus stimulation toward the nerve fibers

Diagnostics: Neural Response Imaging (NRI)

Telemetry: Bi-Directional communication link

======
Have a great weekend!

 

[apkeats26]

If a CI will work for somebody, especially a deaf child, I feel like the parents should definitely go for it. While I am hearing, I don't think life a deaf person, however...I have had the experience of music, sounds, speech, and hearing. I feel that if somebody CAN experience this, then they SHOULD.

Music is huge, I can't imagine life without it. I've got it on right now. I would get a CI just for that if I had to.

 

[Megladon]

If a CI will work for somebody, especially a deaf child, I feel like the parents should definitely go for it. While I am hearing, I don't think life a deaf person, however...I have had the experience of music, sounds, speech, and hearing. I feel that if somebody CAN experience this, then they SHOULD.

Music is huge, I can't imagine life without it. I've got it on right now. I would get a CI just for that if I had to.

As a person that can hear, i understand where you are coming from, what you have to realize is that for some reason i have yet to understand, some deaf people feel this incredible zelious towards staying deaf and keeping other deaf people from being able to hear. My views on those people i will keep to myself.

 

[deafdyke]

Wait a sec.....first Nesmuth posts that the Deaf community is changing and then his next post says that it's dying. Huh? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. There are STILL some parents who are raising their kids with Sign only, and there are still many parents who are raising their kids with TC. Even many of the kids who receive an oral education will pick up Sign as their second language. We'll have to wait a few years to see if the doomsayers predictions are in fact correct. I think that the Deaf community IS changing...in a good way. More people are realizing that it's not about how much hearing you do or don't have that makes you Deaf...and that's good b/c it opens up the Deaf community to more hoh people....hey it'll open up the Deaf culture to hearing people who use Sign as their primary language due to things like tracheostomies, apraxia and things like that.

some deaf people feel this incredible zelious towards staying deaf and keeping other deaf people from being able to hear.

Huh? People with implants are still deaf (the way people with hearing aids are still deaf) Besides even without implants most dhh people have useful residual hearing (at least according to Auditory-Verbal International and professionals like Ling, and Pollack and Beebe)

 

[Miss-Delectable]

Hmm, *reflective look*.....

I am not militant nor will I ever be.

But I must say I agree with many aspects of what Youens and Deafdyke said.

 

[apkeats26]

As I say, it's ok to be stupid, yes, even acceptable, but ignorance is a problem.

 

[Tousi]

I don't know....when the originator of this topic threw this out for our edification, I think he did so just to have us say what we think; not necessarily that he was railing against it. For all we know, he may be jumping up and down with glee at this supposed evolution. He's not"retarted"(sic).....just throwing out something for us to talk about, jeezzz.