It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

Tousi said:
Jiro/Jillio, glad we got those two words squared away because I was worried about heafie being too close to heifer. :lol:
Click to expand...

:lol: MOOOOOOOO! (<--not me!)
 
shel90 said:
There are oral deaf schools, deaf school who use TC, or SEE.
More and more deaf schools are changing their old philosophies to adopt the BiBi philosophy.


There are different kinds of mainstreaming programs..

Mainstreamed full time with a terp.
Mainstreamed full time with no visual aids (oral-only..like u and I)
Mainstreamed part-time and in a self-contained classroom with deaf children from different grade levels
Mainstreamed with Cued speech, TC, SEE, or PSE

The list goes on. Maybe that is what people mean when they ask that question.
Click to expand...


goes to show how hellbent they are not to let go of mainstream, intergration isn't about understanding, it is about keeping in control
 
I'd say Deaf Community isn't stabled because there's not enough of the deaf people to be involved. But that's just me.
 
jillio said:
I have noticed a pattern here and elsewhere that leads me to ask a question. I would like to have honest answers, but will not accept name calling, bullying, or insult in this thread, and will promptly report any posts that contain such. I would also remind everyone that honesty sometimes can be uncomfortable, so if you can't stand someone being honest, it is best that you don't participate in this thread. That said, here goes:

I have noticed on more than one occasion that hearing parents of deaf children have accused the deaf/Deaf community of being unreceptive toward their CI implanted child.I have seen hearing parents accuse the deaf/Deaf community of trying to set their deaf child apart based on the fact that they are implanted. It always, in any discussion of implantation of deaf children, comes down to, "The Deaf community has rejected my child because I chose to give him/her the gift of sound!" The Deaf community, in the end, is always blamed for the lack of contact with other deaf/Deaf that the child has.

I have been around long enough to remember the early days of the CI, and will agree that the deaf/Deaf community has not always been open to the idea of implantation...either for adults or children. I have also seen this attitude change and become more and more accepting toward those that make the choice for themselves or their child. I can honestly say that I do not know a single deaf individual that would, today, reject a deaf child or that child's hearing parents, simply because that child has a CI. I do not know a single deaf individual today that would reject another deaf adult simply because they had chosen to undergo a surgical procedure to provide access to sound, even if it is not a personal choice they would make for themselves. Yet, I continue to hear hearing parents of deaf children claim that the deaf/Deaf community rejected them because their child was implanted.

Here is my question: Is it really the deaf/Deaf community that is rejecting hearing parents and deaf children with CI, or is it the hearing parents themselves who are continuing to set their child apart from the deaf/Deaf community?

In discussions of education, I am still seeing hearing parents make statements such as, "Well, the experience of a deaf adult does not apply to my child, because my child is different. He/she has an implant. It is not the same as it used to be." In discussions of language, I am still seeing hearing parents say, "Well, my child no longer needs sign language, because my child now has a CI, and he/she can hear more than children with HA could ever hear." In discussions of the psycho-social issues of growing up as a deaf child in a hearing environment, I am still seeing parents make the statement, "Well my child will easily integrate into the mainstream because my child has a CI. Better hearing and better oral skills will mean that he/she will not experience the same problems as an adult who grew up without a CI."

For 20 years, I have been hearing these very same comments come from a wide variety of hearing parents of implanted children. And for the same 20 years, I have seen the deaf/Deaf community try to reach out to these parents, relate the painful and negative experiences they have lived through and overcome, only to see these hearing parents of implanted children reply, "Well, I'm sorry, but it will be different for my child." What I have not seen, over the past 20 years, is a great deal of difference in the educational achievement, the linguitic competency, or the psycho-social well being of these kids. I have not seen that it is different for the deaf child with a CI any more than it is different for the deaf child that grew up with a digital hearing aid instead of an analogue.

I see the deaf/Deaf community wanting to accept these kids, and to give these kids a connection that will make a difference in their lives. I see the hearing parents rejecting that with the same pattern of thinking that has continued year after year after year. "So what if my kid is deaf. Its going to be different for them. I am going to to everything in my power to make sure that they have all the advantage that technology can offer, so their experience will be different." I see the deaf/Deaf community reaching out to these children and their hearing parents. I see the hearing parents pushing the deaf community away, believing that what they have to offer is not something their child needs because the same as hearing parents for years and years have wanted to believe, "My child is different." The pattern is obvious, and it is not new. It is the same pattern that has always been there, from the days of analogue HA to digital HA to Cochlear Implant.

What hasn't changed very much at all is the experience of the deaf child. We have seen more and more deaf children with CIs mainstreamed, but we have not seen a decreased need for accommdations that deaf children have always needed in the mainstream. We see deaf children with CIs growing into deaf adults with CIs, but we have not seen a decrease in the number that develop close and abiding friendships with other deaf once they are out of their hearing parent's home. We have seen deaf children with CI learning sign language as adults because their hearing parents insisted on an oral only environment, and we are still seeing reports of them saying they wished they had been given ASL as children. We see deaf children with CI gowing up and getting married, and we still continiue to see that a deaf adult (no matter what technology they use) will still be more likely to marry another adult with hearing loss than a hearing partner. We are seeing deaf children with CIs graduate from high school, despite having been mainstreamed their entire educational career, with literacy rates that fall well below the norm for the hearing students. We see deaf children with CIs grow into deaf adults with CI and still remain underemployed. We see deaf children with CIs enter into their adoloescent years unprepared to complete the transition of separation from the parent, and continue to experience social problems and relationship problems that destroy their self esteem and their sense of identity. We still see deaf adults that have been implanted for many many years that complain of being caught between hearing and deaf worlds, and not feeling as if they belong to either. They are still telling us that they do not fit with the hearing because, despite the advantage of a CI, they were never able to integrate with that group because they missed too much of what went on. They are uncomfortable with the deaf because they were never given the opportunity to associate with other deaf, to learn a visual language, to find the bond of being the same as those with whom they spend their time. As a consequence, they are not "different" than one group, and "alike" another. The feel different with both groups and where ever they go. We see deaf children with CI growing into deaf adults who have no idea what their career options are, because they have never been given the opportunity to observe successful deaf role models in all walks of life. They only know that, because they have a CI, they still can't do some of the same things that their hearing peers can do, but see it as more restricting on their choices because they have never been given an example of what a deaf adult can do, and what deaf adults all over the country do, on a daily basis.

Why is this continuing to happen? Because hearing parents are saying, with ever increasing numbers as the rate of childhood implants go up, "My child is different. My child doesn't need the deaf community, because my child will function, in all ways, the same as a hearing child. My child will have better speech skills. My child will receive a mainstream education. My child will grow up with hearing kids. My child will be different from all the other deaf children that have ever grown up before!"

So, folks, is it the deaf children with CIs that are rejected by the deaf/Deaf community, or is it the hearing parent that sets the deaf child with a CI apart from the deaf/Deaf community? After 20 years of observing this phenomena, I can say, as a hearing parent with a deaf child, and someone trained to observe and see the underlying motivations behind individual behavior, that it is not the rejection of the deaf/Deaf community, but the continuation of the hearing parent that sets the deaf child with a CI apart as being different somehow based on advanced technology. The technology used to provide sound may have changed, but the soul and the needs of a deaf child have not. They are still deaf children, and they are still experiencing the same struggles that deaf children had before the first implant was ever done. Parents simply have a new excuse for believing, despite the lack of change in the outcome, that their child is different. They have a new justification for keeping their child away from the deaf/Deaf community, despite it being the greatest resource they could provide their child. It is not the deaf/Deaf community that rejects. It is the deaf/Deaf community that is continuing to be rejected.

Thoughts, please. And, again, I expect honesty, but I expect civility in the process.
Click to expand...

Hi Jillo,

From the conversations I have had in person with Deaf folks, I have not known any Deaf (culturally, or bilingually) to reject an implantee or their family. Granted, most of my Deaf friends are instructors or close friends of my instructors. So, maybe education has a role in the attititude.

I read Cochlear War a long time ago, and at that time, there seemed to be a pervasive controversy brewing, but I just haven't really seen it in most of the other articles I have read.

The biggest rejection that I percieve is from the parents of implantees towards the culturally Deaf. It is as if they viewed signers as lesser. I really have no authority to speak about any of this, because my first-hand knowledge is slim. I can only honestly say that I have not witnessed any attitudes of rejection from the culturally Deaf towards the implantee. If anything, I have heard grumbling about the oral-only method being used exclusively when teaching implanted children. :)
 
dreamchaser said:
Hi Jillo,

From the conversations I have had in person with Deaf folks, I have not known any Deaf (culturally, or bilingually) to reject an implantee or their family. Granted, most of my Deaf friends are instructors or close friends of my instructors. So, maybe education has a role in the attititude.

I read Cochlear War a long time ago, and at that time, there seemed to be a pervasive controversy brewing, but I just haven't really seen it in most of the other articles I have read.

The biggest rejection that I percieve is from the parents of implantees towards the culturally Deaf. It is as if they viewed signers as lesser. I really have no authority to speak about any of this, because my first-hand knowledge is slim. I can only honestly say that I have not witnessed any attitudes of rejection from the culturally Deaf towards the implantee. If anything, I have heard grumbling about the oral-only method being used exclusively when teaching implanted children. :)
Click to expand...

Thank you for seeing that and understanding that fact instead of assuming that if one grumbles about the oral-only method as rejecting the children with implants.


:)
 
Interesting what I saw today

The whole school where I work at went to a play directed by a Deaf person and deaf/hearing actors. I was surprised to see other deaf programs from other programs, mostly mainstreamed there to see the play as well. Many of the students from the other programs use ASL and they were so excited to see our students. During intermission, some of them introduced themselves as welll as some of our students did so they interacted socially. However, I was sitting in the back with the other staff and I noticed that there was one group of kids from one oral-only program sitting off by themselves. U know what I saw that made me really sad? They were laughing and mocking the deaf signers by making fun of their signing. I just sat and watched the whole thing and one of the students from one of the mainstreamed programs who is a ASL user came up to them and said hi. U know what they did...they looked at him like he was an alien and turned to each other saying something and then laughing at him.

It was apparent who did the rejecting. Of course after numerous of students saw them mocking them, they started mocking them too. Come on...I find it a shame that they are so divided like that. A shame.
 
shel90 said:
The whole school where I work at went to a play directed by a Deaf person and deaf/hearing actors. I was surprised to see other deaf programs from other programs, mostly mainstreamed there to see the play as well. Many of the students from the other programs use ASL and they were so excited to see our students. During intermission, some of them introduced themselves as welll as some of our students did so they interacted socially. However, I was sitting in the back with the other staff and I noticed that there was one group of kids from one oral-only program sitting off by themselves. U know what I saw that made me really sad? They were laughing and mocking the deaf signers by making fun of their signing. I just sat and watched the whole thing and one of the students from one of the mainstreamed programs who is a ASL user came up to them and said hi. U know what they did...they looked at him like he was an alien and turned to each other saying something and then laughing at him.

It was apparent who did the rejecting. Of course after numerous of students saw them mocking them, they started mocking them too. Come on...I find it a shame that they are so divided like that. A shame.
Click to expand...

Yea that is sad. Sigh... kids can be so cruel. One thing for sure... parents MUST teach their child to be accepting of people who are not like him/her. If a parent teaches their child that oral only is better than those who sign, that's just bad. But sometimes it's not even taught, kids sometimes look down on anyone who do things differently for no reason. The family member that I have, who has a CI, one day came up to me and said "Why don't you have the CI? Thats stupid. My life is so much better after having the CI." I was just so taken aback (he's 11 years younger than me!!!). Good thing we aren't blood related!
 
Daredevel7 said:
Yea that is sad. Sigh... kids can be so cruel. One thing for sure... parents MUST teach their child to be accepting of people who are not like him/her. If a parent teaches their child that oral only is better than those who sign, that's just bad. But sometimes it's not even taught, kids sometimes look down on anyone who do things differently for no reason. The family member that I have, who has a CI, one day came up to me and said "Why don't you have the CI? Thats stupid. My life is so much better after having the CI." I was just so taken aback (he's 11 years younger than me!!!). Good thing we aren't blood related!
Click to expand...

These are children doing this. This is tought. Little kids are like a sponge and they soak up what is around them. If the child with CI is told constantly that hearing is better than signing, they will believe it. Conversely, if you teacsh that same child that signing as well as speaking is a good thing, they'll believe it.


It starts with the little ones. "And, then a little child shall lead...."

Think about it.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Yea that is sad. Sigh... kids can be so cruel. One thing for sure... parents MUST teach their child to be accepting of people who are not like him/her. If a parent teaches their child that oral only is better than those who sign, that's just bad. But sometimes it's not even taught, kids sometimes look down on anyone who do things differently for no reason. The family member that I have, who has a CI, one day came up to me and said "Why don't you have the CI? Thats stupid. My life is so much better after having the CI." I was just so taken aback (he's 11 years younger than me!!!). Good thing we aren't blood related!
Click to expand...

I dont know if the parents taught them that. That would be speculation but it is apparent that they see deaf signers as different. Hey, I used to mock at Deaf signers growing up and I felt the shame when I saw that cuz I did the exact same thing. For me, it was because I was so ashamed of my deafness and anything that was associated with deafness, I either pushed it away, mocked at, or ignored. Wonder if those kids are ashamed of their deafness?

Yea, I was ashamed of the Deaf signers for behaving the same way back instead of just ignoring them and carrying on with their socializing.

Yea, I see that comment (in red) so many times. The first part is usually from hearing people. To each to its own. If they are happy with their CIs, great but to put others down for not having a CI is just as bad as those who put others down for having a CI. To me, it is just a damn shame. However, at my program, we have so many CI users so the non-CI users dont think twice about them. Heck, even some of them want to get a CI themselves.
 
Oceanbreeze said:
These are children doing this. This is tought. Little kids are like a sponge and they soak up what is around them. If the child with CI is told constantly that hearing is better than signing, they will believe it. Conversely, if you teacsh that same child that signing as well as speaking is a good thing, they'll believe it.


It starts with the little ones. "And, then a little child shall lead...."

Think about it.
Click to expand...

Yep..I agree. It was the attitudes towards signing by those around me that led me to believe that I was superior to those who are signers EVEN my own brother growing up. Nobody had to tell it to me directly...it is a learned behavior.
 
shel90 said:
I dont know if the parents taught them that. That would be speculation but it is apparent that they see deaf signers as different. Hey, I used to mock at Deaf signers growing up and I felt the shame when I saw that cuz I did the exact same thing. For me, it was because I was so ashamed of my deafness and anything that was associated with deafness, I either pushed it away, mocked at, or ignored.

Yea, I was ashamed of the Deaf signers for behaving the same way back instead of just ignoring them and carrying on with their socializing.

Yea, I see that comment (in red) so many times. The first part is usually from hearing people. To each to its own. If they are happy with their CIs, great but to put others down for not having a CI is just as bad as those who put others down for having a CI. To me, it is just a damn shame. However, at my program, we have so many CI users so the non-CI users dont think twice about them. Heck, even some of them want to get a CI themselves.
Click to expand...

I find it so funny how my view of other deaf people and medical community is SO drastically different. Because the doctors/audiologists that my mom has experienced were actually for ASL based setting because "I could never fit in the hearing world.". My mom initially accepted it but as she looked into programs, one of the programs rejected me and said that I could do fine in oral only. So I was raised thinking not that other signing deaf kids were "less than" but rather that they were not given a chance to be able to fit into the hearing world. I always thought "if only they had my mom and speech therapist, they wouldn't be limited to talking only those who knew sign." I was raised more with the thinking that people had low faith in deaf children.

But I guess I'm one of the VERY FEW who thought this.
 
Daredevel7 said:
I find it so funny how my view of other deaf people and medical community is SO drastically different. Because the doctors/audiologists that my mom has experienced were actually for ASL based setting because "I could never fit in the hearing world.". My mom initially accepted it but as she looked into programs, one of the programs rejected me and said that I could do fine in oral only. So I was raised thinking not that other signing deaf kids were "less than" but rather that they were not given a chance to be able to fit into the hearing world. I always thought "if only they had my mom and speech therapist, they wouldn't be limited to talking only those who knew sign." I was raised more with the thinking that people had low faith in deaf children.

But I guess I'm one of the VERY FEW who thought this.
Click to expand...

And you are here now! Slowly, but surely, we will assimilate you!:P
 
Oceanbreeze said:
These are children doing this. This is tought. Little kids are like a sponge and they soak up what is around them. If the child with CI is told constantly that hearing is better than signing, they will believe it. Conversely, if you teacsh that same child that signing as well as speaking is a good thing, they'll believe it.


It starts with the little ones. "And, then a little child shall lead...."

Think about it.
Click to expand...

But on the other hand, there are some kids in my daughter's school who don't like hearing people. They mock them and say they are stupid and refuse to interact with hearing kids, even if they sign.
 
Back
Top