Is it really so bad to know SEE (Sign Exact English?)

[Frisky Feline]

I probably wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't use SEE (or MSS).

I like ASL, but in my opinion... SEE is better in the education environment. I know many argue that it's not a language, but a signed aspect of English.

Yes, ASL is a language. Yes, Spanish is a language. Yes, German is a language. Yes, French is a language. However, those foreign students who come to American schools use English when they're in the education environment. It's English that gets them through spelling and grammar. If those students are expected to use English, then deaf students should be expected to use English as well. Since ASL isn't "English", then what can they use as a sign language system when trying to match their hearing peers? Signed Exact English (or other equivalent sign language).

A hispanic student will speak Spanish when he's at home or with other hispanic friends, but when he's at school... he will speak English with his teachers and in class.

With that logic...

A deaf student will sign ASL when he's at home or with other deaf friends, but when he's at school... he will sign SEE with his teachers and in class.

I grew up using SEE from elementary school to high school until I graduated. When I was out of school, I used ASL (or PSE). I didn't use ASL in the education environment until I went into college. I graduated at high school at grade level.

Almost all of my deaf classmates grew up using ASL from elementary school to high school until they graduated. Even though their teachers used SEE, those deaf students responded in ASL and used ASL everywhere. Those deaf classmates graduated at 3rd grade (to 7th grade) level.

I blame part of it on the flawed education system where some parents and teachers consider their deaf children "special" and require "special attention". As a result, those who don't do well in school are still given passing grades and progressed to the next grade level while getting behind on their actual grade level. For instance, why graduated at 7th grade math? They struggle with word problems, which usually begins in elementary school. Let's say word problems become normal in the 4th grade. They manage to finish 4th grade math during the middle of 5th grade... then finish 5th grade math during the end of 6th grade... then finish 6th grade math during the middle of 8th grade... then finish 7th grade math during the end of 11th grade. The same goes for spelling and grammar.

My parents and teachers treated me like a hearing kid when in school. If I failed a class, I went to summer school. If I got a low test grade, I got a low class grade. What I did, I got.

A lot of my deaf classmates were treated lightly by their parents and teachers. If they chose to have their children treated as "special". As a result, if those deaf students failed a class... they still passed. If they got a low test grade, they still got a passing class grade.

I have friends who are teachers and interpreters in the deaf education system and they say it's still going on today where some are given special treatment by teachers and parents... and the majority of those students prefer ASL over SEE.

It depends on individual's SEE that affects how well they write. Apparently, it works well for you. It did not work for me with SEE. I had been struggling to sign in SEE and it was very frustrating for me. Until I get older and i started signing in ASL. it is more of making sense to me and see the picture better then I had to do all over again by writing and expressing it better.

I do not know how many you have met ASL users before. Some of my friends who sign pure ASL and they write very well and much better than I am. That is a fact. Again, like i mentioned that it depends on individual's writing ability based on methods in developing communication skills.

I wonder if I sign ASL all my life that would make me to read the books in organizing my reading process better. I dont know.

 

[JMH]

I'm still not sure why SEE isn't considered a language. But it's still communicating language. If SEE isn't language, then it's not communicating language. It doesn't make sense.

I was in same boat as VamPyroX - I grew up learning SEE but I started using PSE later in my life. In fact, I skipped a grade when I was in Jr. High school (CSDR) because it was too easy for me and I could have skipped another grade if I stayed there bit longer. However, I left there to get better education in mainstreaming school.

I tried to read some interpreter that signed strong ASL, I could not understand her and I had to reminder her to sign PSE. It seems that I rather learn anything in straight English than expression/picture/imagery language (aka ASL).

There is nothing wrong with people preferring certain sign language – SEE, ASL, PSE, and etc… as long as they understand each other while communicating.

 

[CSign]

I'm still not sure why SEE isn't considered a language. But it's still communicating language. If SEE isn't language, then it's not communicating language. It doesn't make sense.

I was in same boat as VamPyroX - I grew up learning SEE but I started using PSE later in my life. In fact, I skipped a grade when I was in Jr. High school (CSDR) because it was too easy for me and I could have skipped another grade if I stayed there bit longer. However, I left there to get better education in mainstreaming school.

I tried to read some interpreter that signed strong ASL, I could not understand her and I had to reminder her to sign PSE. It seems that I rather learn anything in straight English than expression/picture/imagery language (aka ASL).

There is nothing wrong with people preferring certain sign language – SEE, ASL, PSE, and etc… as long as they understand each other while communicating.

SEE is another mode of English, however many people seem to ignore that fact. If you are planning on engaging with the Deaf community, ASL is the way to go. If you are the parent of a DHH child or a DHH teacher, then SEE can be beneficial in helping a young child/person to develop proficiency in the English language.

As Bottesini pointed out, it is more likely that the OP is using PSE rather than SEE. In my opinion, it certainly is not bad to know SEE- but if you want to engage with the Deaf community ASL is the way to go.

 

[NaLa]

Hello, NaLa and welcome to AD and best wishes on your ASL journey. I cannot help but wonder, seeing as how you are in New York (Harlem, specifically) how you are doing in the aftermath of Sandy????

I'm doing okay. Some of my family member's homes are damaged, but other than that I'm fine. I was blessed that my power didn't go out and my home was fine.There isn't much oil, so driving here is hectic, everyone's trying to fuel their homes if they have no power and drivers are trying to fill up their tanks, so its bad in that sense. With the city being so crowded with people and the transportation being limited its kinda causing chaos a little. Buses and trains over crowded, but I guess it could be a lot worse. Thanks for asking.

 

[NaLa]

To whom are you signing, when and where?

Currently no one. I have no deaf friends and no one that knows sign language. I used it more when I was in college when I met this guy. We were put into a group randomly for a project and I was helping him. I signed a little when I was around him and he fixed my signs when I was wrong. He read lips and mostly spoke though. Then after the couple classes we were in and I left college, I haven't since then. I have to now make myself available to include myself into the deaf community, but with just living my life I rarely have time to get outta my comfort zone.

 

[cdmeggers]

I don't think it's bad. I grew up learning SEE at the deaf school I went to. Started learning some ASL in 8th grade, and again a bit more in high school. I still can't get a grasp on the ASL language structure, since my mind thinks in English word order even when I'm signing. I use more PSE these days myself.

 

[Reba]

To simply know signed English isn't a bad thing as long as it isn't used as a substitute for ASL. ASL is a complete language by itself. SEE was created 40 years ago as a manual mode of English. Signed English can be useful in the educational setting but not as a substitute language. It's another mode of English, not a language by itself. Braille, Morse code, Rochester method, and the printed word are all modes of English but they are still all one language, and that is English. They are not separate languages.

Interpreters learn how to interpret ASL and to transliterate signed English (which includes the various types of SEE).

 

[JMH]

Thank you, Reba, for making it clear!

You're first person I've met that explained why SEE isn't language more clearly. For years I have asked people who told me SEE isn't a language - to explain me why it's not language. All of them couldn't explain at all - well, some of them were stumped. :roll:

 

[Grummer]

To simply know signed English isn't a bad thing as long as it isn't used as a substitute for ASL. ASL is a complete language by itself. SEE was created 40 years ago as a manual mode of English. Signed English can be useful in the educational setting but not as a substitute language. It's another mode of English, not a language by itself. Braille, Morse code, Rochester method, and the printed word are all modes of English but they are still all one language, and that is English. They are not separate languages.

Interpreters learn how to interpret ASL and to transliterate signed English (which includes the various types of SEE).

so, in other words, any sign systems used in education which can not be used as a substitute mode of communication, but only in a sense, as a tool, an educational tool.
Probably more like 'formal teaching signs' like 'formal use of English in classroom' for hearing people, put differently, the way teachers presents the subject taught in class is in a different more of English, no slang,no free creative dialogue (although there are some self stylised teachers but its not that common) so for sake of this arguements clarity stick with formal english used instead of conversational-style English, can be comparative with SEE vs ASL... BUT...
only trouble is...SEE has to be learned in order to access SEE's purpose of conveying what is being taught about English..but then again...there would be (and should be allowed so [and i dont imagine its flexible to how we'd like it (ie. using ASL in classrooms) to explain in another way by doing it conversationally in ASL (this brings Shel90, etc to mind as this would be their approach of Bi-Bi education) ...

hope this make sense?
G

 

[BecLak]

Wirelessly posted

In other words, why learn a whole system of signing just to learn English, when you can do just as well and better with the existing full-fledged languages as with ASL, BSL, NZSL and Auslan etc. You don't learn a middle code of communication to learn Japanese from English for example. You learn Japanese directly. Right, Grummer?

 

[Reba]

Wirelessly posted

In other words, why learn a whole system of signing just to learn English, when you can do just as well and better with the existing full-fledged languages as with ASL, BSL, NZSL and Auslan etc. You don't learn a middle code of communication to learn Japanese from English for example. You learn Japanese directly. Right, Grummer?

Let's just say, follow the money.

 

[shel90]

Wirelessly posted

In other words, why learn a whole system of signing just to learn English, when you can do just as well and better with the existing full-fledged languages as with ASL, BSL, NZSL and Auslan etc. You don't learn a middle code of communication to learn Japanese from English for example. You learn Japanese directly. Right, Grummer?

Hehehehe..

 

[Grummer]

yes Beclak!,
reba no no and NO

following the money is Not right, you should be ashamed of saying that.
what we need is, the access to power and influnece to change the perception of the language and do it long and hard...till we get pass the hype of 'inclusion' bs thats been getting around lately....

 

[Jane B.]

Wirelessly posted

In other words, why learn a whole system of signing just to learn English, when you can do just as well and better with the existing full-fledged languages as with ASL, BSL, NZSL and Auslan etc. You don't learn a middle code of communication to learn Japanese from English for example. You learn Japanese directly. Right, Grummer?

Which prompts another question for me as someone that only knows English. How do you teach English grammar, including word order and endings when going from ASL to English? If my understanding is right, ASL does not have ing, ed, and other word endings for tense etc.

 

[GrendelQ]

Which prompts another question for me as someone that only knows English. How do you teach English grammar, including word order and endings when going from ASL to English? If my understanding is right, ASL does not have ing, ed, and other word endings for tense etc.

I think the strongest rationale for how ASL can benefit the learning of English is the same relationship you see between any first and second language: there's a transfer of conceptual and (with ASL, to a very small degree) linguistic knowledge across languages. If I can sign "home", say "home" and sign "home," an ASL using child already understands the concept of home behind the sign and can immediately grasp the idea that saying "home" = signing "home."

Also, a great deal of ASL is fingerspelling the English word, so there's a direct relationship across that set of vocabulary. If you've ever tried signing your children's earliest books, those beautifully illustrated board books, you inevitably come across the need to fingerspell words like "armadillo," "leopard," and "hedgehog" to your 2YO repeatedly.

 

[Reba]

yes Beclak!,
reba no no and NO

following the money is Not right, you should be ashamed of saying that.
what we need is, the access to power and influnece to change the perception of the language and do it long and hard...till we get pass the hype of 'inclusion' bs thats been getting around lately....

I'm sorry if that offends you but if you want to know about the source and spread of SEE you should follow the money trail back to 70's.

Why should I be ashamed of telling the truth? I didn't support it; I just report about it.

 

[Reba]

Which prompts another question for me as someone that only knows English. How do you teach English grammar, including word order and endings when going from ASL to English? If my understanding is right, ASL does not have ing, ed, and other word endings for tense etc.

Because ASL doesn't need them. ASL shows tense in other ways.

How to teach it? Use the white board, books, and writing practice.

If you're teaching Chinese to English users would you invent some other pseudo language in order to teach Chinese?

 

[Grummer]

I'm sorry if that offends you but if you want to know about the source and spread of SEE you should follow the money trail back to 70's.

Why should I be ashamed of telling the truth? I didn't support it; I just report about it.

Hi Reba,
ok no problems, I understand ya, yea i see what you meant by 'follow the money' in a different context...

and indeed, its typical hearing people would funding significantly more into projects that reflects much more closely to how THEY (hearing) would prefer...its quite rare if any projects that were genuinely initatd by the centrally- politically deaf (wordy i know but how else i describe it (it 3AM i just woken up by a tinnitus having a hot drink then just back to bed to let ear calm down ) hmm but yah it will always be a long hard struggle....

cheers

 

[CSign]

Which prompts another question for me as someone that only knows English. How do you teach English grammar, including word order and endings when going from ASL to English? If my understanding is right, ASL does not have ing, ed, and other word endings for tense etc.

That is actually the reason why SEE was created by a group of Deaf and a few hearing individuals. To address the significant English language delays in deaf children. Language seems to most efficiently be acquired in face to face interaction, and SEE is the link that makes English visible.

 

[Reba]

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

American Deaf people were literate in English a loooong time before SEE was invented.