Ip Relay Warning

[PowerWCRulez]

I'd hate to rehash a zombie thread, but I think this is something that needs to be seen. This was posted by a person claiming to be a supervisor at MCI on the same forum ScamBuster is linking to (pls note I have edited out vulgarities):



I felt the need to reply to this thread and post this quote because I think it is important for you, as the targeted demographic of relay services, to know what is going on. Management as a whole, does have this attitude. Not only is it stressful to us a operators to be looked down on like this, but it also expresses MCI's cocky demeanor and neglect towards relay, and how we choose to handle these scams. Eventually the FCC will be tired of paying all this money, and it will be either restricted or even shut down.

Because the Government does not distinguish between call content and type, every single minute clocked is reimbursed. With these scams making up so much of the call volume, in the company's point of view it would be too costly to block these calls, even though it is very much within their capabilities. Someone mentioned shutting down the service for a few months and then bring it back. That is a very good idea, and I wish it would be an option the company would consider, as previously stated, money is what the company is interested in.

And to those who are thinking, well if you cut the call volume and money the company recieved, wouldn't that mean the company would have to downsize? It would, and to be completely honest, I would give up this job in a heart beat if it meant this service finally being used as intended, not abused, and not as a source for a corporation to fulfill its greed.

Hello there,

The internet relay provider should have a "IP Detector" to see if they're from asia country, then the relay operator would set banning on IP, which is cannot accept from other countries.. for example:

Incoming: xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx / xdail.provider.mx
notice that mx is came from mexico.. then the operator set banning IP address and click denied message "Your IP is blacklisted, does not accept connection with us, if you're tried scamming on us and we will report to your ISP" and disconnected them.

 

[Nesmuth]

The whole definition of "Big Deaf Industry" (BDI) cant be any better than what's seen on this thread!

This thread has been very illustrative on the definition of BDI than a "haphazard network of non and for profit businesses cashing in on the special needs of the deaf"

Richard

 

[Dennis S.]

I'd hate to rehash a zombie thread, but I think this is something that needs to be seen. This was posted by a person claiming to be a supervisor at MCI on the same forum ScamBuster is linking to (pls note I have edited out vulgarities)

First off, cental, thanks for your posts on AllDeaf. I want to bring some information to light in what you have posted:

1) It is not the company's fault. Time and time again, the FCC has ordered them NOT to block based on call content. I, as a deaf person who has served on a relay advisory board, can completely understand why the companies should NOT be allowed to monitor our calls and decide when "it's a fraud call." I have been given examples by my state's relay manager that could be decided as fraud calls but ultimately were real calls by real people doing real business.

Suppose a call starts off like this:

Relay caller: i want ordr 100 lights form u, hav cc, how mny u hav in stokc q gaga

Should the relay operator decide it's a fraud call then? Or should he wait until he sees "Nigeria" somewhere? Or wait until the credit card comes through and do a credit check and see if it's been reported stolen?


Relay Operators are not and should NEVER be in a position to decide. That was the agreement of the meeting.


2) Now, if companies could reliably block IP addresses or locations, THEY SHOULD.

But, they CAN'T do this reliably. Why? I was told that the internet makes this virtually impossible. Big ISPs like AOL have the same IP addresses pop up again and again and if they block those addresses, ALL AOL people cannot make relay calls. Is that okay?

I was told that the FCC has determined they will pay for:

SOME fraud calls while still having ALL real relay users go through, rather than
Block ALL fraud calls AND block SOME real relay users from accessing relay.

The internet relay provider should have a "IP Detector" to see if they're from asia country, then the relay operator would set banning on IP, which is cannot accept from other countries.. for example:

Incoming: xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx / xdail.provider.mx

PowerWCRulez: Are you an expert on computer networking? I used to do that for a living. There is no such thing as an "IP Detector" that works in the real world.

Not all IPs have a country designator.

Not all IPs are unique. Some are shared, i.e., AOL has a limited number for all their subscribers. Same with NetZero, Earthlink, etc. ALL ISPs in the world have this limitation.

The same AOL IP address can be used from Nigeria or from the U.S. I could be a Nigerian who stole an AOL account and use that to call relay to do fraud. Block that IP? You block all AOL subscribers from calling relay.

 

[Dennis S.]

Let me amend my stance then: No one except the FCC should be in a position to decide whether or not a call is "fraudulent." Not even operator supervisors.

What amount makes a call "non-consumer?" Is up to the operator's supervisor to decide that "100 of something is too much, but 75 is fine?" I wouldn't want someone to be able to make that judgement for my calls, or to break transparency to tell a business that "I may fit a pattern of fraud" that any business would have to watch out for themselves if the call NEVER went through relay. Caveat emptor to the business.

Deaf people do order silly amounts of stuff that people wouldn't think they'd do otherwise.



MCI says they can block them, but choose not to? Bull. They can't BLOCK THEM ALL. It's impossible because of the nature of the internet. Sounds like someone who told you doesn't know how the internet works, and is just parroting what they were told by someone higher up. The knowledge that I have and the information given to me by Sprint Relay says it's impossible.

Until the FCC says, "Get rid of internet relay" the fraud calls will continue to go through, plain and simple.

 

[Dennis S.]

Cental, the bottom line is, the nature of the internet for internet relay makes it impossible to stop fraud.

1) The Internet is anonymous. By design, it is meant to be possible to hide your actions behind a computer with a random internet address.

2) The internet is not governed by any one body. The FCC can't say, "well, because of internet relay fraud, all IP addresses must now be assigned to Africa, Asia, South America, yadda yadda..." No one OWNS the internet and no one can make you conform to U.S. rules of the internet.

I understand that you cannot block them all. But at the rate they come in, it is suspicious. Maybe I'm naive about it. The fact they were able to block them originally, and not now, does that not raise an eyebrow? I don't see the FCC doing anything about it. Many operators from call centers around the country are reporting that 90 percent of their calls are illegit.

I highly doubt they were "able to block them originally." I would guess that it wasn't a large problem or popular with scammers until recently.


Registration does zilch. I sign up for extra Yahoo accounts for spam email all the time. What's to stop a fraudulent person from signing up, again and again, with false information and false email addresses, under new accounts for each fraud call? There's no proof of deafness required.

Registration doesn't make it harder to do fraud -- It just inconveniences people like me who don't want to sign up for i711.com. I bet it also costs money to pay for maintaining a database of users, thus the FCC would have to pay MORE.


The FCC DID do something about it -- they ruled that no one can block calls based on content.

Okay, now, solutions:

1) Get rid of internet relay. That's the cheapest and quickest option for the FCC to enact. Will they do it? I dunno.

2) Educate businesses about fraud calls. It's no different from any other fraud call -- a REAL telephone call using the same fraud methods WILL work. Stop the merchandise from being shipped, and the frauds will be out of business.

3) Make internet relay calls be charged long distance telephone fees. Require a credit card or calling card before every call and charge 10 cents a minute because you can't tell where the call is coming from.

 

[diehardbiker]

He is right! Really IP addresses is easily manipulated! Anyone who have the knowledge of how IP works CAN manipulate and fool anyone. Also, those who wants to "Borrow" somebody else's IP address is very easy! All they have to do is look for available proxy server. There are PLENTY of available proxy server that is LEFT on unintentionally by owner who had no idea what proxy server is!, Or even worse didn't lock up their proxy server properly. I wont be surprised if Nigerian guy found a proxy server in the United states, and use this server to cover up the trail, and relay operator WON'T even notice!

PowerWCRulez: Are you an expert on computer networking? I used to do that for a living. There is no such thing as an "IP Detector" that works in the real world.

Not all IPs have a country designator.

Not all IPs are unique. Some are shared, i.e., AOL has a limited number for all their subscribers. Same with NetZero, Earthlink, etc. ALL ISPs in the world have this limitation.

The same AOL IP address can be used from Nigeria or from the U.S. I could be a Nigerian who stole an AOL account and use that to call relay to do fraud. Block that IP? You block all AOL subscribers from calling relay.

 

[Dennis S.]

cental, I understand where you're coming from. In fact, my first reactions were just like yours are now, disgusted and distrusting with anger towards the companies who are milking the government for free money, and on, and on.

I feel like I would still have the same view if I wasn't carefully educated and discussed this with other knowledgleable people about relay technology. The fact is, I lashed out at the companies first, because they were the easy target. Not until I was shown proof that the FCC said what they said was I finally able to realize the problem was bigger than just being all about $$$.

 

[Eve]

It seems to me that a clause should be written into the confidentiality code regarding known illegal acts. It is a shame that these businesses would rather loose the income of deaf business than subject themselves to the loss of millions through these scams. We obviously do not provide enough incentive for them to continue business relations with us. I am not saying it is their fault, they have to be cautious and the only one's we can truly blame are the fuckers scamming them in the first place.

I thoroughly agree with Dennis' suggestion on educating businesses to this sort of scam. It will still make things more difficult for us as consumers, but I guess that is what it may take. I say that anyone having merchandise sent overseas should have funds completely secured prior to shipping (possibly deny credit card use and require only a money order).

 

[shabear]

Where I live at!

In my area many people are poor due to "No Positions Available". Lack of jobs offerred or not enough of the right positions for the poor. limited opportunity.

My town Kills each other over $10 -$20 Dollars, Shoes, Sneakers, Earings, Jewerly, Diamonds, Food, We lie steal, and hunt for money to Feed Nephews, orphans, pregant women,.

How I avoided all this Heavy damm Nation surrounding my comunity, Is almost amazing. But I feel July 4,2005. Is it. The End! Hate in one man heart, Who does not live in my area or has no Family living close by Is a man Searching for Trouble. I Pray my Life will be Prosperous.

While living on earth, after all I am only Human!

 

[javapride]

ai!!!! ok

whilist i been watching all this situation on the thread.. lemme tell u my little experince that really screwed up many of my businesses now i had to rely on a IRL interpeter to make my flipping call... panda online.com has a 24 hr hotline and i was trying to change a ticket for my partner and well in the process it screwed up things this lady comes on and says yah i know this is a scam sorry im not taking no more prank calls and slams the phone im like wtf! im not a scammer im calling to change my flippin ticket! so i tlld the lady online to call back and explain and she said refused to take the call slams the phone agaain so i told relay fine i m calling back again this time NO saying GA or anything and dont anouce who u are! so i call back then the women goes i know ur calling back stop harrassing me Slams the phone andi hadn't even said a word! i was pissed! so on i go to find an interpeter cuz my cell phone volume was messed up so i had to use that instead ugh... so anyway..... im having this interp call back and finally changing the ticket i was like stupid nigerian poeple screwing poeple's lives and all the hearies using the relay as a prank u know what that pisses me off BIG TIME!

 

[Dennis S.]

In my area many people are poor due to "No Positions Available". Lack of jobs offerred or not enough of the right positions for the poor. limited opportunity.

My town Kills each other over $10 -$20 Dollars, Shoes, Sneakers, Earings, Jewerly, Diamonds, Food, We lie steal, and hunt for money to Feed Nephews, orphans, pregant women,.

How I avoided all this Heavy damm Nation surrounding my comunity, Is almost amazing. But I feel July 4,2005. Is it. The End! Hate in one man heart, Who does not live in my area or has no Family living close by Is a man Searching for Trouble. I Pray my Life will be Prosperous.

While living on earth, after all I am only Human!

This doesn't look relevant to this thread. shabear, please clarify how your post is related to IP-Relay.