I am against oralism because....

Oralism is alive and well! Especially since CI's are starting to become common. A very recent illustration happened a few months ago at my daughter's school. Our bi-bi program needs a building. We have been leasing a condemed school building for the last several years but it is going to be torn down this summer. The Utah School for the Deaf did not give the money to our program but a new Auditory Verbal (sign prohibitted) School go the funding. Our school has been around and growing for the last 10 years, this school was created in August. It happened only because it is an Oral only school and ours is an ASL school.
 
faire_jour said:
Oralism is alive and well! Especially since CI's are starting to become common. A very recent illustration happened a few months ago at my daughter's school. Our bi-bi program needs a building. We have been leasing a condemed school building for the last several years but it is going to be torn down this summer. The Utah School for the Deaf did not give the money to our program but a new Auditory Verbal (sign prohibitted) School go the funding. Our school has been around and growing for the last 10 years, this school was created in August. It happened only because it is an Oral only school and ours is an ASL school.
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What a damned shame!:rifle:
 
faire_jour said:
Oralism is alive and well! Especially since CI's are starting to become common. A very recent illustration happened a few months ago at my daughter's school. Our bi-bi program needs a building. We have been leasing a condemed school building for the last several years but it is going to be torn down this summer. The Utah School for the Deaf did not give the money to our program but a new Auditory Verbal (sign prohibitted) School go the funding. Our school has been around and growing for the last 10 years, this school was created in August. It happened only because it is an Oral only school and ours is an ASL school.
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Jeez!!!

oralism only :rl::rl::rl:
 
interesting thread.......

I can see theres a danger of letting oralism continue to exist if we allow oral skills still be taught......
hearing knobheads in control of education and or in position to advise parents are cunning...dont underestimate that

Hard line must be HARDLINE period...
 
We should keep ASL in schools. Education is easily the most important than the ability to speak. Don't mess with the education!
 
Buffalo said:
We should keep ASL in schools. Education is easily the most important than the ability to speak. Don't mess with the education!
Click to expand...

Exactly. Education can overcome an inability to speak. The ability to speak cannot overcome the lack of education.
 
Grummer said:
interesting thread.......

I can see theres a danger of letting oralism continue to exist if we allow oral skills still be taught......
hearing knobheads in control of education and or in position to advise parents are cunning...dont underestimate that

Hard line must be HARDLINE period...
Click to expand...

The point here being that deaf people must be in control of education for deaf children. Correct?
 

I don't know what you guys would call me. But I'm Oral, I have ever since my parents enrolled me into Tucker Maxon Oral school when I was 16 months old. However I've been using ASL since 8th grade whenever I'm speaking to Deaf people/friends.

I remember ever since as a little child, and my friends from Tucker also remembers this, if we ever use any movement of our hands or gesture with our hands, we get into big trouble like teacher would slap my hands just because I used movement of my hands as I was talking. Once I remember, I told the teacher that I needed to go to the bathroom and as I was saying bathroom, I also used the sign "bathroom"...boy wasn't my teacher pissed. After I went to the bathroom, I was sent to sit in the hallway for ten minutes just because I used the sign Bathroom.

Even my parents didn't want me to learn ASL, because they want me to speak like a normal hearing person. I don't regret that my parents has sent me to Oral School to learn how to speak because I do truly like to speak and I'm able to speak to my hearing fiance. But I just wish that my parents would accept that I'm deaf and that ASL is my culture too. The weirdest thing is that all the people that I met from Tucker that were students there are using ASL too...they have learned ASL after they left Tucker and we would sign to each other, even though we can speak.

Last time I went there was two years ago and I was signing to Heather, a friend of mine who also went to Tucker, we were there visiting a friend of ours who's still attending there, the professors/teachers were pissed that we were signing...:giggle: never less Heather and I quite enjoyed it that we were signing where it was actually forbidden when were students there!

Here's a saying, "You may prolong something from us but you can never forbid us to learn what we want to learn."

That actually true to me and the students that has attended to Tucker, because eventually at the end, we end up learning/using ASL around each other (deaf people) It's our culture, we feel drawn to it.


 
It proves that many deaf kids in oral schools feel the need to sign even if they're banned from it.
 
I remember old oralish students from jr high school and high school long time ago. They used made fun of our sign sometime but my asl classmate and I got even with them. I didn't see old oralish students for long time. After gradution, I saw them again and i was so shocked to see them sign. I came to them and asked them do they know asl? They said yes, they realize oralish always being misunderstand and asl is so clear. I was so suprised about that. Wow
 
Not all oralists are audists, but Kaelei's experience certainly shows that some of them have serious screws loose.
 
~*Kaelei*~ said:

I don't know what you guys would call me. But I'm Oral, I have ever since my parents enrolled me into Tucker Maxon Oral school when I was 16 months old. However I've been using ASL since 8th grade whenever I'm speaking to Deaf people/friends.

I remember ever since as a little child, and my friends from Tucker also remembers this, if we ever use any movement of our hands or gesture with our hands, we get into big trouble like teacher would slap my hands just because I used movement of my hands as I was talking. Once I remember, I told the teacher that I needed to go to the bathroom and as I was saying bathroom, I also used the sign "bathroom"...boy wasn't my teacher pissed. After I went to the bathroom, I was sent to sit in the hallway for ten minutes just because I used the sign Bathroom.

Even my parents didn't want me to learn ASL, because they want me to speak like a normal hearing person. I don't regret that my parents has sent me to Oral School to learn how to speak because I do truly like to speak and I'm able to speak to my hearing fiance. But I just wish that my parents would accept that I'm deaf and that ASL is my culture too. The weirdest thing is that all the people that I met from Tucker that were students there are using ASL too...they have learned ASL after they left Tucker and we would sign to each other, even though we can speak.

Last time I went there was two years ago and I was signing to Heather, a friend of mine who also went to Tucker, we were there visiting a friend of ours who's still attending there, the professors/teachers were pissed that we were signing...:giggle: never less Heather and I quite enjoyed it that we were signing where it was actually forbidden when were students there!

Here's a saying, "You may prolong something from us but you can never forbid us to learn what we want to learn."

That actually true to me and the students that has attended to Tucker, because eventually at the end, we end up learning/using ASL around each other (deaf people) It's our culture, we feel drawn to it.


:gpost: Exactly what happen to me when I was in the oral only method in the mainstream elementary and high school (both of them in oralism which I hate that) back in the fifties and sixties. I am for the spoken English with ASL which is fine and I support that but not oralism, no way. The audists had make my life miserable and I could not lipread that well, but some hearies said or still saying that I do lipread very well. Not true, as lipreading is not one hundred percent accurate. I get misunderstand a lot more on lipreading than ASL. I love to use ASL so that I can understand with visual better than lipreading. Yeah, the audists are still at it with them and trying to put them through oral only approach today to our deaf children in many schools whether in the regular schools or deaf schools. It make me want to throw up, because it is not fair to have us go through pressure from audists and hearing parents, too. It is going to be a long battle to fight oralism. How can we get through their stubborn mind that we really need ASL more than oralism only method? They don't understand that we are perfectly happy with ASL along with Spoken English. It is the visual that helps us understand better than lipreading, so there I have said it. All hearing people are dreaming and trying to fix us many times over and over and over that I am sick of that. :roll:
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When I read about this debate, I think of my Greek aunts who came to the US at an age where learning a new language is a much greater challenge than for kids. They learned basic things; they could do their shopping, pay their bills, etc. But their social lives were in the Greek community. It really went far beyond the ability to speak English or not - it was also about common experience and challenges, a real understanding. (Just as I can talk about a typical day here in Istanbul but unless you've lived here, you only get a superficial idea of what it is like.) Anyone outside that community who really wants to understand them will have to make the effort. Some might, some might not; so be it.

I can only imagine what my aunts' lives would have been like if they had been forced to speak English, slapped every time they uttered a word of Greek. They might have learned more English and been more "functional" in a way but they would also have been isolated from those people who could truly and deeply understand them.

And I think, "what would be the motive for forcing them to speak only English?" Several possible answers come to mind:

1. A belief that English is somehow superior.

It's surprising how much you run accross the attitude that one language is 'better' than another.

2. The desire of the majority to interact on their own terms.

It is frustrating to want to communicate with someone whom you can't understand and who doesn't understand you. It's such a natural desire. But if you really want to communicate, it's a two-way street; that's true even for people who speak your own language, and how often people forget even that. I think many hearing people assume that being a deaf American/Turk/whatever is just like being a hearing American/Turk/whatever, and don't really think about how profoundly different one's experience is. Just as many people think that "respect for other cultures" as something interesting in a touristic sort of way but never consider how stuck they are in their own cultural way of viewing the world and other people. They just assume that what they know is "the right way."

2. a belief (even if 'well-intended') that if they could only be "like us" their lives would
be of higher quality.

It's so easy to project your (perceived) needs on another and then say "oh how sad, they don't have that." Heck, I've had people express disbelief, even concern, that I've never owned a television set, and argue why I should have one. They go on and on about what I'm missing, without thinking about what they are missing by focusing so much time a day on the TV.

My aunts were quite happy. They had a decent income, close friends, a community who accepted them and loved them. All the things a human needs to be happy. As well as the ability to function quite well in American society, even if not in the same way as Americans. Yes, they would have felt out of place in many areas. But they definitely had places where they felt perfectly at home. So when one feels inclined to pity another because they don't function in the way they do, they need to stop and consider what they also don't have and the view of the world that they themselves have never experienced.

Sooo.. (wrapping it up here):

I'm all for learning to deal in a foreign language, it's clearly helpful. But everyone's ability is different, and everyone's need and desire is different too. As long as one can cope and is happy in this life, who's to judge how one copes or what makes him happy? It seems to me that having a community, having real communication with people who understand you is much more important. The eagerness of deaf kids to pick up sign language, mentioned above, seems to be very clear evidence of that need.

Our country feels shame about the times when Native American kids were punished for speaking their languages. To deprive kids of free communication when they're growing up seems nothing less than cruel.
 
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My mom told me about stuff the oralists did when teaching me some Deaf history like the oralists making deaf students sit at their desks with their hands under their bottoms so they had to speak. I was glad that this dark age passed away before I was born, but apparently, they are making a comeback.

If an oralist slapped me for signing, I'd write to them to show how good my English is despite me speaking words only a handful of times in my entire life. I'd also tell them that it'd be a waste of time for me to learn to speak because I live and work just fine with signing, writing and typing. It's also long past the developmental stage where learning how to speak would be easy. If they keep slapping me, I'd get them arrested for assault.

It looks like they see deaf people as broken and in need of being fixed by communicating in the same way as hearing people. They ban sign languages because they see it as a threat to speaking ability, but there are people who can do both. I wonder if the hearing oralists ever tried to lipread themselves because they apparently don't realize that not all speech is lipread easily, causing oralism to get in the way of learning quickly.

I wonder what oralists think of the plains native American sign language used for intertribal communication.

I also wonder if the oralists realize that it's risky to depend on just lipreading, speaking and the CI because lipreading doesn't give you 100% of the information and someone could use an EMP weapon to fry the CI, as well as lots of other electronics within range. Or they could just put it into water or smash it up.

There's also no being put into or using a MRI scanner with the CI magnets.
 
RedFox said:
My mom told me about stuff the oralists did when teaching me some Deaf history like the oralists making deaf students sit at their desks with their hands under their bottoms so they had to speak. I was glad that this dark age passed away before I was born, but apparently, they are making a comeback.

If an oralist slapped me for signing, I'd write to them to show how good my English is despite me speaking words only a handful of times in my entire life. I'd also tell them that it'd be a waste of time for me to learn to speak because I live and work just fine with signing, writing and typing. It's also long past the developmental stage where learning how to speak would be easy. If they keep slapping me, I'd get them arrested for assault.

It looks like they see deaf people as broken and in need of being fixed by communicating in the same way as hearing people. They ban sign languages because they see it as a threat to speaking ability, but there are people who can do both. I wonder if the hearing oralists ever tried to lipread themselves because they apparently don't realize that not all speech is lipread easily, causing oralism to get in the way of learning quickly.

I wonder what oralists think of the plains native American sign language used for intertribal communication.

I also wonder if the oralists realize that it's risky to depend on just lipreading, speaking and the CI because lipreading doesn't give you 100% of the information and someone could use an EMP weapon to fry the CI, as well as lots of other electronics within range. Or they could just put it into water or smash it up.

There's also no being put into or using a MRI scanner with the CI magnets.
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That reminds me of a teacher I had who forced a left-handed student to write and sign right-handed. :roll:
 
kipourgos said:
When I read about this debate, I think of my Greek aunts who came to the US at an age where learning a new language is a much greater challenge than for kids. They learned basic things; they could do their shopping, pay their bills, etc. But their social lives were in the Greek community. It really went far beyond the ability to speak English or not - it was also about common experience and challenges, a real understanding. (Just as I can talk about a typical day here in Istanbul but unless you've lived here, you only get a superficial idea of what it is like.) Anyone outside that community who really wants to understand them will have to make the effort. Some might, some might not; so be it.

I can only imagine what my aunts' lives would have been like if they had been forced to speak English, slapped every time they uttered a word of Greek. They might have learned more English and been more "functional" in a way but they would also have been isolated from those people who could truly and deeply understand them.

And I think, "what would be the motive for forcing them to speak only English?" Several possible answers come to mind:

1. A belief that English is somehow superior.

It's surprising how much you run accross the attitude that one language is 'better' than another.

2. The desire of the majority to interact on their own terms.

It is frustrating to want to communicate with someone whom you can't understand and who doesn't understand you. It's such a natural desire. But if you really want to communicate, it's a two-way street; that's true even for people who speak your own language, and how often people forget even that. I think many hearing people assume that being a deaf American/Turk/whatever is just like being a hearing American/Turk/whatever, and don't really think about how profoundly different one's experience is. Just as many people think that "respect for other cultures" as something interesting in a touristic sort of way but never consider how stuck they are in their own cultural way of viewing the world and other people. They just assume that what they know is "the right way."

2. a belief (even if 'well-intended') that if they could only be "like us" their lives would
be of higher quality.

It's so easy to project your (perceived) needs on another and then say "oh how sad, they don't have that." Heck, I've had people express disbelief, even concern, that I've never owned a television set, and argue why I should have one. They go on and on about what I'm missing, without thinking about what they are missing by focusing so much time a day on the TV.

My aunts were quite happy. They had a decent income, close friends, a community who accepted them and loved them. All the things a human needs to be happy. As well as the ability to function quite well in American society, even if not in the same way as Americans. Yes, they would have felt out of place in many areas. But they definitely had places where they felt perfectly at home. So when one feels inclined to pity another because they don't function in the way they do, they need to stop and consider what they also don't have and the view of the world that they themselves have never experienced.

Sooo.. (wrapping it up here):

I'm all for learning to deal in a foreign language, it's clearly helpful. But everyone's ability is different, and everyone's need and desire is different too. As long as one can cope and is happy in this life, who's to judge how one copes or what makes him happy? It seems to me that having a community, having real communication with people who understand you is much more important. The eagerness of deaf kids to pick up sign language, mentioned above, seems to be very clear evidence of that need.

Our country feels shame about the times when Native American kids were punished for speaking their languages. To deprive kids of free communication when they're growing up seems nothing less than cruel.
Click to expand...


Well said!!
 
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