How Does the Real World View the Profoundly Deaf?

[Doug5]

When I say deaf, I mean zero hearing and cant speak. Can only communicated through signing.

Does mainstream society reduce expectations of a deaf person to the same level as a retarded person? where society doesnt think a deaf person is capable be sucessfull in a challeging career. That a deaf person is capable of janitorial work or washing dishes?

The reason I ask is, could this be the motivation of parents and professionals to make the deaf, oral at all costs?

 

[Holly]

When I say deaf, I mean zero hearing and cant speak. Can only communicated through signing.

Does mainstream society reduce expectations of a deaf person to the same level as a retarded person? where society doesnt think a deaf person is capable be sucessfull in a challeging career. That a deaf person is capable of janitorial work or washing dishes?

The reason I ask is, could this be the motivation of parents and professionals to make the deaf, oral at all costs?

Unfortunately many ignorant pople in this world will treat profoundly deaf individuals like they are less than human. That could be a reason why parents want their children to be oral as well. Also, a lot of hearing people don't want to hire profoundly deaf people because they feel like it would be too hard to communicate (and to be honest, if the deaf person is not oral many times communication can be difficult). However, in many cases you can write back and forth to eachother. But many hearing people think this is just too much work and effort to deal with. Therefore, some deaf people who are not oral have a hard time getting a decent job.

 

[shel90]

Agreed with you ,Holly, and that view is just so screwed up. I was raised orally and had good skills but I was treated like someone beneath by most hearing people wether it was the experts, family, peers or just strangers. Yes, there were some people who treated me as an equal but they were so few.

I was placed in a summer camp with severely low functioning children when I was a child despite my protests to go to a different camp where all of my hearing peers went.

I was mocked and bullied constantly even at one point I was moved to another class for my safety.

My teachers talked to me so slowly and so exaggerated as if I wasnt intelligent. They dumbed down their language with me but not with my hearing peers.

As a teenager, none of the boys would date me cuz I was the "deaf and dumb" girl. Some guys even told some of my hearing friends that it was too bad cuz I was so beautiful or attractive. How it was a waste. Geez! Thanks a lot!

As a young adult, I worked for an insurance company..none of my co workers made the effort to acknowledge me or to include me. I had to be the initator..even then, they would just smile at me with this silly smile and just constantly nod their heads whenever I talk with them. It was like their expressions were saying "hurry up and finish talking!"

Family gatherings, my brother and I were left out 90% of the time unless I demanded to be included.

The list goes on and on and I have great oral skills so what good did it do for me by being raised in an oral only environment? Nothing! Except that I can communicate with hearing people on a one-on one basis. Whooopie do!

When I learned ASL and the Deaf community, finally I felt like I belonged and felt a connection for the first time in my life and that was at the age of 28 years old.

Yes, I was treated like I was not as smart as my peers despite having good oral skills.

 

[Silentwolfdog]

Anyone will treat any person who's different either physically and/or mentally as less human, no matter what.

I think one of reasons why people were encouraged to make deaf take oral method is that it bring a sense of "normal" to deaf person. Like if they could speak and understand another person, then they are normal.
But I am sure there's many different reasons for that. Some parents don't want to learn sign language, some think that sign language would harm deaf children, that oral methods are the only method available in their area, that it's easier for deaf people to communicate with hearing people, etc.
So one of your suggestion is one of many possible reasons for raising deaf orally.

I can't hear and only communicate through sign language. But I never really felt like I was treated badly. Just that each of my action "surprise" them. Like they were impressed when I joined sports at public school or actually went to college. Like it's the most amazing thing ever. It's ignorance and assurance that did the most harm.

 

[Doug5]

wow shel, u had a tough time growing up. so many negative experiences with people, hearing and deaf.

The evolution of the word dumb (unable to speak) to meaning (inferior intelligence) sums up mainstream's view of the deaf.

 

[shel90]

wow shel, u had a tough time growing up. so many negative experiences with people, hearing and deaf.

The evolution of the word dumb (unable to speak) to meaning (inferior intelligence) sums up mainstream's view of the deaf.

My experience with deaf people has been practically nonextistent growing up even though my deaf brother went to a deaf school. I really dont know why I was kept in the dark about his school and everything else. It is something that I need to sit and talk to my mom about to get some answers which I am gonna do in 2 weeks when we all fly to AZ for our vacation.

 

[Dixie]

For me I always felt like I was never quite good enough. I was put in remedial courses, when in fact I was just fine - I just wasnt getting the information so I wasnt learning.

I remember once that I had put in to take the regular Algebra I course for the fall semester at my high school, well my dad is a teacher there. He picked up my fall schedule and noticed I had put in for Algebra I. He went running to the Algebra teacher and told him I was too dumb to be in the class and that he was removing me from the course WITHOUT my knowledge.

So he ran to the school guidance counselor, told her and he scratched out Algebra I and put me in Remedial Mathematics. Then he came home and told me what he had done - all of it without my permission or knowledge of what he had done. It was like he never expected much out of me so he put me in a remedial class. That was an indication that I wasnt 'good enough' to be normal.

Another experience is when my parents would not allow me to join athletics because 'you can't hear'. I had to beg and plead for years. Finally in the spring semester of 8th grade they allowed it. I didnt stay with basketball because the coach treated me as dumb so I left and went to track and field full time where I was treated as an equal and I blossomed. My parents were 'shocked' I made it to the state cross country meet two years in a row.

Then when it came time to apply for colleges- dad wanted me to go to junior college for two years then go to work because he didnt think I would be able to make it at a 4 year university and even if I did I probably wouldnt find a white collar job anyway.

I finally stood up and said - DAMMIT BOY (yeah I called him 'boy) Ive had my life orchestrated to what is convienient for you and Ive never done something for myself, and DAMMIT today is the fucking day Im going to do it!' I stormed out of the house and went and enrolled and moved on campus to a 4 year university. Sure I lost my car in the process but I didnt give a damn, I wasnt under daddys control anymore. Mom was glad and happy for me. For the first time I felt I had finally blossomed. I joined theatre, DJ'ed at the campus radio station, got a job at a fast food joint, I did everything, I was independent. I kept a 3.8 GPA and was on the Dean's List.

Mom underhandedly gave me my car back when she got the mid-term reports that I had done so well. I think she realized that being deaf had nothing to do with my ability to be normal or to live independently. It was a lightbulb moment for her.

Then of course I had a bit of an oopsie, finished out the spring semester with good grades then dropped out.

When I married my exh treated as if I truly were retarded. It was bad, I dont want to go into detail but I will tell you his parents came for a visit and he treated me so horrendously that I exscused myself to the bathroom to cry then said I didnt feel well then went to bed and cried myself to sleep. The next morning his dad told me I was a winner to lift me up and after that he treated me a little bit better but not much so I assume either one or both of his parents had a talk with him. But after his parents left it was right back to the same, but it compared to nothing to things he was doing behind my back. When I told him to leave he was a bit shocked, then finally enough was enough, I told him I did not want him back at all after he was caught filing a false police report. I didnt need that.

Then last week dad and I got into an argument, he finally came right out and told me I was the greatest dissappointment of his life. Needless to say that comment hurt but I shoved it to the back of my mind and kept going.

I think there are just some people out there that will never treat a deafie with any amount of respect regardless of how much you 'educate' them, others come around eventually, and others really do see you as an equal and not as a 5 year old pest.

Its sad to see how others who are in a similar situation to mine are treated and its sad that the world doesnt understand simply because they dont want to understand. They think they've got it all figured out.

 

[Doug5]

My experience with deaf people has been practically nonextistent growing up even though my deaf brother went to a deaf school. I really dont know why I was kept in the dark about his school and everything else. It is something that I need to sit and talk to my mom about to get some answers which I am gonna do in 2 weeks when we all fly to AZ for our vacation.

my mistake. I thought when u went to low functioning summer camp it was with deaf children

 

[Doug5]

wow dixie you had some rough cicumstances. It pisses me off hearing how your ex treated you poorly. What a jerk.

My dad was the opposite when it came to schooling. When the school found out I was hoh, they automatically wanted to put me in remedial classes. My father refused to let them do it. He almost got in a fight with the principal over it.

His argument that now they know what the problem was they could try and make some accomidations and see if the hearing aid helped. The principal was adament about putting me in special ed. Turns out the school gets more money from the government when a student is in special ed.

My fathers argument was, I should at least be given a chance since I now had a hearing aid, and the school could place me with the most articulate teachers. He was right. I was an A, B student. My hardest subject was always english.

THe thing that upsets me the most is the assumption that a deaf or hoh student cant handle any more than remedial courses. To try and deny us an our rightfull educational opportunities is criminal

 

[shel90]

my mistake. I thought when u went to low functioning summer camp it was with deaf children

I was the only deaf child in my elementary school so they placed me in summer camp with people who have severe retardation or severe behavior problems.

 

[Doug5]

that answers my original question. The majority of hearing people equate hoh and deafness with retardation and being mentally disturbed.

Its insulting. Deaf people are no different than anyone else, we cant hear as much. It has nothing to do with behavior or intelligence.

 

[shel90]

that answers my original question. The majority of hearing people equate hoh and deafness with retardation and being mentally disturbed.

Its insulting. Deaf people are no different than anyone else, we cant hear as much. It has nothing to do with behavior or intelligence.

I agree with you very much on that one. However, that was like 25 years ago ...hopefully with all the ASL classes being offered in high schools or ASL classes for hearing children (Baby signs) people are more educated about deafness and ASL.

 

[jillio]

For me I always felt like I was never quite good enough. I was put in remedial courses, when in fact I was just fine - I just wasnt getting the information so I wasnt learning.

I remember once that I had put in to take the regular Algebra I course for the fall semester at my high school, well my dad is a teacher there. He picked up my fall schedule and noticed I had put in for Algebra I. He went running to the Algebra teacher and told him I was too dumb to be in the class and that he was removing me from the course WITHOUT my knowledge.

So he ran to the school guidance counselor, told her and he scratched out Algebra I and put me in Remedial Mathematics. Then he came home and told me what he had done - all of it without my permission or knowledge of what he had done. It was like he never expected much out of me so he put me in a remedial class. That was an indication that I wasnt 'good enough' to be normal.

Another experience is when my parents would not allow me to join athletics because 'you can't hear'. I had to beg and plead for years. Finally in the spring semester of 8th grade they allowed it. I didnt stay with basketball because the coach treated me as dumb so I left and went to track and field full time where I was treated as an equal and I blossomed. My parents were 'shocked' I made it to the state cross country meet two years in a row.

Then when it came time to apply for colleges- dad wanted me to go to junior college for two years then go to work because he didnt think I would be able to make it at a 4 year university and even if I did I probably wouldnt find a white collar job anyway.

I finally stood up and said - DAMMIT BOY (yeah I called him 'boy) Ive had my life orchestrated to what is convienient for you and Ive never done something for myself, and DAMMIT today is the fucking day Im going to do it!' I stormed out of the house and went and enrolled and moved on campus to a 4 year university. Sure I lost my car in the process but I didnt give a damn, I wasnt under daddys control anymore. Mom was glad and happy for me. For the first time I felt I had finally blossomed. I joined theatre, DJ'ed at the campus radio station, got a job at a fast food joint, I did everything, I was independent. I kept a 3.8 GPA and was on the Dean's List.

Mom underhandedly gave me my car back when she got the mid-term reports that I had done so well. I think she realized that being deaf had nothing to do with my ability to be normal or to live independently. It was a lightbulb moment for her.

Then of course I had a bit of an oopsie, finished out the spring semester with good grades then dropped out.

When I married my exh treated as if I truly were retarded. It was bad, I dont want to go into detail but I will tell you his parents came for a visit and he treated me so horrendously that I exscused myself to the bathroom to cry then said I didnt feel well then went to bed and cried myself to sleep. The next morning his dad told me I was a winner to lift me up and after that he treated me a little bit better but not much so I assume either one or both of his parents had a talk with him. But after his parents left it was right back to the same, but it compared to nothing to things he was doing behind my back. When I told him to leave he was a bit shocked, then finally enough was enough, I told him I did not want him back at all after he was caught filing a false police report. I didnt need that.

Then last week dad and I got into an argument, he finally came right out and told me I was the greatest dissappointment of his life. Needless to say that comment hurt but I shoved it to the back of my mind and kept going.

I think there are just some people out there that will never treat a deafie with any amount of respect regardless of how much you 'educate' them, others come around eventually, and others really do see you as an equal and not as a 5 year old pest.

Its sad to see how others who are in a similar situation to mine are treated and its sad that the world doesnt understand simply because they dont want to understand. They think they've got it all figured out.

Wow, Dixie girl! You have come through some degrading experiences with an amazing sense of yourself. I admire that.

 

[shel90]

Wow, Dixie girl! You have come through some degrading experiences with an amazing sense of yourself. I admire that.

I second that too!

I admire people like Dixie instead of people who say that they made their deaf children like hearing people.

 

[jillio]

I second that too!

I admire people like Dixie instead of people who say that they made their deaf children like hearing people.

Yeppers!

 

[Holly]

that answers my original question. The majority of hearing people equate hoh and deafness with retardation and being mentally disturbed.

Its insulting. Deaf people are no different than anyone else, we cant hear as much. It has nothing to do with behavior or intelligence.

you're absolutely right! that is insulting! Although it probably stems from a long long time ago, before sign language and hearing aids, when educators just didn't know how to teach deaf people. So, being uneducated, they weren't as book smart as others their age. And in many cases they were institutionalized because it was thought that nothing else could be done for them. I seriously hope that this growth of ASL classes and people seeking to be less ignorant of deafness will continue! The days of institutionalizing are over!

 

[deafbajagal]

When I say deaf, I mean zero hearing and cant speak. Can only communicated through signing.

Does mainstream society reduce expectations of a deaf person to the same level as a retarded person? where society doesnt think a deaf person is capable be sucessfull in a challeging career. That a deaf person is capable of janitorial work or washing dishes?

The reason I ask is, could this be the motivation of parents and professionals to make the deaf, oral at all costs?

I think for the most part the motivation lies in that the parents/professionals want the child to be more "normal" (as in more like hearing people). I don't think having oral skills enable the person to have more of an advantage than a person who is has no oral skills. A deaf person, regardless of communication modality, will face discrimination and will need to find ways (soemtimes have to be creative) for the workplace to make accommodations.

In my personal experiences - the modality of the child's communcation isn't the issue. If the child grows up in an environment that is nurturing and supportive, that child will learn means of self-advocacy. By that I mean the deaf adult will say, "I am deaf. This is how I communicate. This is what we can do to make sure equal and clear communication happens so I can be the best employee for you."

 

[Doug5]

you're absolutely right! that is insulting! Although it probably stems from a long long time ago, before sign language and hearing aids, when educators just didn't know how to teach deaf people. So, being uneducated, they weren't as book smart as others their age. And in many cases they were institutionalized because it was thought that nothing else could be done for them. I seriously hope that this growth of ASL classes and people seeking to be less ignorant of deafness will continue! The days of institutionalizing are over!

My idea of intelligence is different than mainstream society's. Like knowing all the answers to jeopardy questions doesnt make someone smart. Take the smartest person you know and imagine how smart theyd be if they never had any schooling.

The mind is like a muscle, the more its used the stronger it gets. Deaf people in the past werent given the opportunity to exercise their minds so maybe theirs was a little weak. But they never had a chance to make it stronger.

 

[jillio]

My idea of intelligence is different than mainstream society's. Like knowing all the answers to jeopardy questions doesnt make someone smart. Take the smartest person you know and imagine how smart theyd be if they never had any schooling.

The mind is like a muscle, the more its used the stronger it gets. Deaf people in the past werent given the opportunity to exercise their minds so maybe theirs was a little weak. But they never had a chance to make it stronger.

You are quite right, Doug5. One can be learned without having the intelligence necessary to apply what they have learned. Rote memorization is not an indication of intelligence, or even of understanding. Memorizing of facts, and spewing them back without ever having processed the inforamtion to a degree where it is useful and sythesized is not intelligence.

Intelligence is shown by taking what you know and applying it appropriately and in new and creative ways, and seeing the connections that others miss.

 

[Holly]

My idea of intelligence is different than mainstream society's. Like knowing all the answers to jeopardy questions doesnt make someone smart. Take the smartest person you know and imagine how smart theyd be if they never had any schooling.

The mind is like a muscle, the more its used the stronger it gets. Deaf people in the past werent given the opportunity to exercise their minds so maybe theirs was a little weak. But they never had a chance to make it stronger.

My point exactly! Its not that they didn't have the ability, its that they weren't given the opportunity.