- Joined
- Sep 7, 2006
- Messages
- 45,078
- Reaction score
- 323
At the Deaf schools, they are implementing that approach to teaching now. That's why...because of the jobs out there.
Hearing schools
- Thread starter faithy295
- Start date
At the Deaf schools, they are implementing that approach to teaching now. That's why...because of the jobs out there.
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2006
- Messages
- 45,078
- Reaction score
- 323
U still don't get it? It is the lack of full access to language during the children's formative years that have hurted their literacy skills, not the teachers.
Not giving them full access to language is another way of saying it is not being taught.
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2006
- Messages
- 45,078
- Reaction score
- 323
Formative years are from birth to 5 years old.
Jason Paul
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2014
- Messages
- 67
- Reaction score
- 0
I would like to build off of this: since the formative years are in this time period, deaf or hard of hearing children who are not known as such may not get the fullest out of their formative years - and so, in a way, in these cases the fault lies more so with those at home, rather than the school and it's teachers (although they can have a crucial impact too, no doubt), for not correctly laying down a good foundation for the child to build off of in their schooling years, no matter what school they go to. Just a thought.
-Jason
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2006
- Messages
- 45,078
- Reaction score
- 323
Not only with deaf and hard of hearing children with hearing children who live in extreme poverty. It is a vicious cycle that seems hard to break with both groups.
Agreed! There are usually strong academic kids at schools/programs for the deaf.....but those are in the minority b/c the deaf school is seen as a last resort placement....Most kids at schools for the Deaf are those who are from THE MAINSTREAM.....And just b/c Deaf Schools suck, it doesn't automaticly mean that the alternative is any better.....Heck they can "hide" the low acheivers in mainstream special ed...which last I checked wasn't exactly the best place in the world. Yes, there are high acheivers who require minimal accomondations but a mainstreamed kid is just as likely to be one of those kids who graduate with a certificate of attendance or who has trouble with the difference between past and present/future tense...it STILL horrifies me that a woman I know, (oral totally mainstreamed "uncontainminated"" by deaf schooling or Sign) had to have the difference between boycottED and boycottING explained to her. My friend actually has a lot of experience working at RIT....She told me about oral and mainstreamed kids (no other issues)who couldn't count by 2s and 4s and who couldn't alphabetize stuff?!?!?!?!
And then again there's the fact that a lot of kids who did OK initially start struggling around middle/high school......And also there's the fact that while kids can talk, they can also end up poorly literate.....like the type of kid who would have transferred to Clarke/CID/St Joseph's around 4th grade in the old days due to struggling literacy wise in the mainstream. Did you know even the Chaickoffs (those auditory verbal sisters, one of whom runs CI Online) were in REMEDIAL ENGLISH?!?!?!? (that doesn't seem "well educated" to me)
Also, there's a lot more to education and schooling and life sucess then book learning.
Stuff like incidental learning and social-emotional development is INCREDBILY important too! Yet, it's really brushed under the rug BIG TIME!!!!!
Jane, how do you know the educational background of the posters? I agree 100% that written English is the MOST important tool that a dhh (and hearing!) kid can have. You're assuming that the poor English is due to Deaf schooling. It's been many years since Deaf Schooling or even deaf classes were the norm. It's possible that the poor written English may have been due to falling through the cracks in an inclusive situation....And even HEARING kids may not exactly be literate either.
sonocativo
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2012
- Messages
- 9,802
- Reaction score
- 993
That's your choice.
It becomes a balancing act though. Some deaf or HOH kids do pretty well in the mainstream with no "special help", others not so much. But in general it seems that having a program or at least OTHER deaf/HOH kids around might be a great boost to the deaf/HOH kid. I know it might have for me.
I spent my entire school years mainstreamed. The only 'special help' I ever got was..speech therapy (up to about 5th grade). No interpreters, no self contained classes, no other kids (that I knew or knew of anyway). I did start out going to various 'hearing impaired/oral' programs as a tot until I hit age 5 (Kindergarten twice..not real clear on why...). I hated it.. spent most of my time TRYING to lip read and hear. Not an easy task when you are also vision impaired. You get tired realllll quick lol. Didn't socialize as much because of that too.
It is what you make it though- if your personality is one that's really outgoing, go for it. Make your school years your own, not how others experienced it in the past. You'll know if whatever you are doing is working or not. The trick is getting others to understand that- including your mom.
If I were you, if there is support- try it for a while. It can't hurt.
Exactly what I went through...but I was good in arts, actually too good for my teacher and he sent me to art school in my high school years, so I went to my regular high school for 2 classes (2) hours a day to pass the requirements of graduating and spent lunch and traveling by public bus or biking to the art school (about 4 hours) and spent 2 Hours each day in different fields of art during the week.
I was not thinking in terms of "published author" quality prose. But basic word tense and what words have a plural form or stay the same for singular or plural. What to use when writing of something that already happened in the past, is going on now or expected in the future. For example I see a lot of "es" added to words that do not use them such as insurance.
The way I understand it is that some of it is a carryover from the VERY DIFFERENT word order used by ASL compared to that used by standard written English. That leaves the question of if teaching the difference has improved over the years (what the adults that post here got compared to what kids are being given now)?
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2006
- Messages
- 45,078
- Reaction score
- 323
The vicious cycle still continues to this day. Most deaf kids are put in oral programs first and then later on, after falling behind, they get placed in Deaf schools hoping to catch up and that means years and years of language and literacy development lost causing the teachers in the Deaf schools or Deaf programs have to work extremely hard to fix and trust me, it is SO hard to do it. I have done it for many years and it is not a simple "fix". It takes HARD work from the teachers, the children, and the parents and in most cases, it is only the teacher doing the hard work and that just wont work. Need the children and their parents to do the work as well. Language development during the formative years is SO important and unfortunately many deaf children don't get the full access to language just like hearing kids do unless they are immersed in an ASL rich environment.
That's why I get so pissed off at the medical community for discouraging new parents of deaf children from exposing their children to ASL. I have seen the consequences of it years later and then we, teachers, get blamed for being lousy teachers. People really have NO idea. Can make all the assumptions they want but that's the reality.
DeafDucky
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
- Messages
- 5,846
- Reaction score
- 1,073
^^ Agree with Shel.
I can think of at least 3 friends of mine whose written English isn't the best... it's readable and understandable but not always. All grew up in hearing schools and have LESS of a loss than I do. I met a wide variety in college regarding hearing loss and the level of English (written and reading).
Type of schooling didn't matter either although it tilted heavily to many kids being from mainstream environments having trouble and having to take 'remedial English' before they could get into English 101.
I have no idea how or why my level is as good as they are. Maybe it is because my mother worked with me as a tot, maybe it is because I was introduced to books early on (big time reader- to the point I used to get in trouble for reading other books during class lol). But I will say that teaching plays a big part in understanding English and really should start early; home environment could be a factor too.
I can think of at least 3 friends of mine whose written English isn't the best... it's readable and understandable but not always. All grew up in hearing schools and have LESS of a loss than I do. I met a wide variety in college regarding hearing loss and the level of English (written and reading).
Type of schooling didn't matter either although it tilted heavily to many kids being from mainstream environments having trouble and having to take 'remedial English' before they could get into English 101.
I have no idea how or why my level is as good as they are. Maybe it is because my mother worked with me as a tot, maybe it is because I was introduced to books early on (big time reader- to the point I used to get in trouble for reading other books during class lol). But I will say that teaching plays a big part in understanding English and really should start early; home environment could be a factor too.
Last edited:
Then how do you explain the fact that ORAL kids often have WRITTEN English issues too? It's not exclusively ASL's fault.... I know voice off ASLers who have FAR better English then HEARING people
Was it inclusive mainstreaming? Again, that doesn't surprise me....Certain people seem to think that if a kid is mainstreamed/hardcore oral, or go the AVT route they will automaticly develop good English.....Even a SIZABLE measure of HEARING kids have to take remedial English in college... There's still special ed in the mainstream ya know!
And no, this doesn't automaticly mean I'm anti inclusion/mainstreaming....I know there are lurkers here who seem to get their hackles up at ANY suggestion that an inclusive/mainstream setting might have issues....I think inclusion can be an AMAZING setting, if the right pieces of the puzzle are there...But very often they're not and a kid falls through the cracks in MULTIPLE ways!
ecp
Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2004
- Messages
- 622
- Reaction score
- 17
"Than"
ecp
Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2004
- Messages
- 622
- Reaction score
- 17
There are exceptions for every rule.
Some oral kids might have perfect grammar but low literacy. Some deaf school kids can barely form a coherent sentence.
Neither group are expected to achieve the same goals as hearing kids and that is utter bullshit.
How many deaf or hard of hearing students have ever read Camus, Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, etc as a part of school? I'm willing to bet the answer is none.
Bright hearing students are exposed to these authors but deaf students are considered a success when they can read "To Kill a Mockingbird" in grade 12 (hearing kids do it between grades 6 and 10).
Some oral kids might have perfect grammar but low literacy. Some deaf school kids can barely form a coherent sentence.
Neither group are expected to achieve the same goals as hearing kids and that is utter bullshit.
How many deaf or hard of hearing students have ever read Camus, Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, etc as a part of school? I'm willing to bet the answer is none.
Bright hearing students are exposed to these authors but deaf students are considered a success when they can read "To Kill a Mockingbird" in grade 12 (hearing kids do it between grades 6 and 10).
DeafDucky
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
- Messages
- 5,846
- Reaction score
- 1,073
*cough*
I read Camus in high school. Dickens, all the Romance era poets (It's been a while I don't remember the time frame but Bysshe-Shelley, Longfellow etc). In fact my 'B' Track senior English class in high school was EQUIVALENT to HONORS English at Gallaudet. Exact same information exact same info to learn. One of the bigger reasons WHY I didn't do well with the Honors English (I'd have to look at my transcript again) was that I was a freshman...and just barely learned ASL in NSP AND the teacher was pure ASL and voice off. A kid with very beginner knowledge of ASL and vision impaired on top of that well.. let's just say I got a feel for struggling academically in BOTH worlds.
And that's probably what it is like for a lot of oral kids who get switched to a deaf or ASL based program in their elementary or even high school years.
So.. I would caution you to say that NO deaf/HOH has ever read any of the authors you listed. You'd be surprised- I bet there are a small number who do. My private school was (or is...) one of the best schools in the state I grew up in.
DeafDyke-
If by inclusive you mean total immersion into the hearing classroom, yes. All of us attended school K to 12 in the 1960s through to 1980s (With me being the youngest of our small group I graduated HS in 1983). The only help I ever got was speech therapy and maybe some minor adaptions (like white paper with black lines instead of yellow with blue) due to my vision. One of my friends may have had a hearing impaired program within the hearing school- I don't recall. But in general all of us were pretty much 'mainstreamed' or rather.. "Assimilated" lol.
I definitely agree that there are many hearing kids who do need remedial English- I know of at least 1 teen (age 14) who will probably not do so well in life and quite a few adults whose English for lack of a better word...sucks.
That does drive me nuts that people are soooo amazed I did soooo well growing up in hearing school. Well.. yeah academically but I always wonder just how much better I could have done not to mention the social/isolation part. Yeah I had 'friends' and talked to people but nothing that was lasting.
As for me... I'm not from the USA, but this is my experience thus far.
I spent the equivalent of middle school in a 100% deaf school. When I entered high school, I went to a mainstreamed school that had support for deaf students, including interpreters in 50% of classes. (The number would have been higher, if not for the short supply of interpreters in the school.) I graduated high school at 16 (which is the standard age of graduation where I come from).
After that, for one year, I pursued the equivalent of an associate degree in a completely mainstreamed school with no form of support.
Later, I dropped out and returned to a different high school that likewise has no support for deaf students. I'm still there now, studying the equivalent of AP classes. Where I come from, regular high school classes and AP-equivalent classes are based in separate schools, and AP classes cannot be taken together with regular classes due to the wide divergence in their academic demands.
While I did explore the options of in-class interpreters and voice-to-text support, I ultimately decided not to use any of them.
I was raised non-oral to two hearing parents who both learned sign language with me, and actively encouraged me to use it. We experimented with speech therapy, but eventually decided to drop it. English is my first language, and ASL my second.
I can fully empathize with other posters who have voiced their frustration at being mainstreamed; I have had my share of bad experiences as well. To this day, I still kind of miss being in an all-deaf school.
But remember, every individual is different. We all walk different paths in life. But there's one thing I've learnt over the years. I'm now going to pass it on to you, from one deafie to another: If educational support is scarce, find other forms of emotional support from parents, counselors, whoever, that you know you need and will value. I find that such support goes a long, long way.
I wish you all the best
I spent the equivalent of middle school in a 100% deaf school. When I entered high school, I went to a mainstreamed school that had support for deaf students, including interpreters in 50% of classes. (The number would have been higher, if not for the short supply of interpreters in the school.) I graduated high school at 16 (which is the standard age of graduation where I come from).
After that, for one year, I pursued the equivalent of an associate degree in a completely mainstreamed school with no form of support.
Later, I dropped out and returned to a different high school that likewise has no support for deaf students. I'm still there now, studying the equivalent of AP classes. Where I come from, regular high school classes and AP-equivalent classes are based in separate schools, and AP classes cannot be taken together with regular classes due to the wide divergence in their academic demands.
While I did explore the options of in-class interpreters and voice-to-text support, I ultimately decided not to use any of them.
I was raised non-oral to two hearing parents who both learned sign language with me, and actively encouraged me to use it. We experimented with speech therapy, but eventually decided to drop it. English is my first language, and ASL my second.
I can fully empathize with other posters who have voiced their frustration at being mainstreamed; I have had my share of bad experiences as well. To this day, I still kind of miss being in an all-deaf school.
But remember, every individual is different. We all walk different paths in life. But there's one thing I've learnt over the years. I'm now going to pass it on to you, from one deafie to another: If educational support is scarce, find other forms of emotional support from parents, counselors, whoever, that you know you need and will value. I find that such support goes a long, long way.
I wish you all the best
K-12 or college? Very few hearing students will have read Camus, Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky etc as a part of high school.....Maybe 5% will have.. You're being classist....I doubt you'd see a lot of inner city or kids from the middle of no where with those writers as a part of their curriculum.
Also, intensity of the curriculm is only a very small part of true education.
I'm HoH (unknowingly losing my hearing since 3rd grade and now wear hearing aids) and have been exclusively mainstream with very little support. I had a very strong work ethic (well, as strong as it needed to be to get into college) and went on to get my BA in special ed at a ranked university (public Ivy) without any support whatsoever. I am now a graduate student at an Ivy League school and am attempting to figure out support and resources I can get...I often wonder how much easier school could have been if I had had the resources available to people with HoH...I asked my mom what she thought of it and she said that it probably would have been helpful, but at the same time, I taught myself different ways to learn. It also kind of showed me that I have so much potential that I was never really could tap into and that I can do anything if I have the right mindset...
I'm sharing my story because even though I've been HoH for a long time, I didn't realize it. It's like that old myth (totally not true, but a inspirational story) that it is physically impossible for a bumble bee to fly. The bee doesn't know that, so he does it anyway....I think we all have potential but sometimes it's hard when we know we have something hindering us. If we find the right resources and support for our individual needs, whether it's a deaf/hoh school or mainstream, we will all see our full potential...
I'm sharing my story because even though I've been HoH for a long time, I didn't realize it. It's like that old myth (totally not true, but a inspirational story) that it is physically impossible for a bumble bee to fly. The bee doesn't know that, so he does it anyway....I think we all have potential but sometimes it's hard when we know we have something hindering us. If we find the right resources and support for our individual needs, whether it's a deaf/hoh school or mainstream, we will all see our full potential...