Have A Couple Questions...

Ok, so the part about saying something offensive: I'm going to start with that. Every hearing person who's overwhelmed with excitement and urgency to learn ASL wishes they had a Deaf friend so they'd get really good just by interacting with that friend, and of course the friend would help them. But no Deaf person (ok that's a generalization, but try this out anyway) wants someone *who is specifically looking for a deaf friend so they can learn ASL*. If a friendship just happens for some other reason, that's different. But going out saying you're looking for a Deaf friend can make a person feel used, and as though you don't really care who they really are, besides the fact that they are Deaf. I know you don't want to come off that way, and really, you're probably hoping to find enough Deaf people that you'll by chance hit it off with one of them and become friends in a more natural sort of way. And, you know, good luck with that. But I would *not* go around, not even here, saying you're looking for a Deaf friend because you need one to get good at ASL.

Next. You want something of value from a person (a Deaf person or someone who is fluent at ASL). You want to make friends and are hoping you'll get that thing of value as part of the friendship. I think that can feel pretty creepy on the receiving end. For example, I'm a mathematician. I'm actually happy to help people if they get stuck with something, but once in a while I'll see an ad on Craigslist in the friends (platonic) section saying "I want a new friend who's good at math - I need alot of help with algebra" so, um, no. On this end it sounds like "Hey! I want something for free! But we'll call ourselves friends so it'll be no big deal! Cool?"

What I'm getting at is that you need to offer something for this. The simplest thing to offer is money. I know that some of us can't afford to spend, but it's the simplest thing. Find a class in your area: college is expensive, but some places have non-credit classes that aren't quite as thorough, but much cheaper, and at least it gets you a resource whose brain you can pick about grammar. If you can't find anything near you, there is online instruction available. If you're not going to do that and want to continue to look for an individual, I think you still need to offer something, otherwise it's just too disrespectful. It can be anything the person can use. I once taught a guy how to true is bicycle wheel and repack a hub in exchange for a few hours of conversation with him. One time I gave a guy a ride to a bus station in exchange for some signing time. I have advertised looking for these arrangements, and sometimes just grabbed them when I saw a chance.

Ok, next, about having different signs for the same word. Happens all the time. You don't think about it. But what if you were learning English and learned how to say "that's strange" and someone said "that's weird"? You just have to learn that there's another word that means the same as strange, right? And sometimes they're totally interchangeable, and sometimes there's some subtle difference in when you'd choose to use one or another, etc. But a fluent person is totally used to that. So you just learn them as they come.

ASL and Signed English: yes, they're different. What if you were from Mexico and only knew Spanish? And you were planning to go to Canada, in an area where they spoke French and Enlish? And you were going to learn French. And maybe you'll meet some people who only know English, and you can't communicate very well with them. Yeah, life is hard sometimes. But still pretty great to be able to talk to the French-speaking people, right? Same with ASL. Worth learning. Yeah, some Deaf people don't use it. And you'll probably sign in English more than you want to anyway, just because you'll fall back into your first language some of the time, especially in the beginning. (I'm not talking about signed exact english, just ASL signs with English grammar, so PSE.)

You mentioned that school that you're not ready to help out at. Well, not as someone who knows ASL, but maybe as someone who doesn't? Do they need someone to do filing? Or something like that? If not, I'd just call them and ask if they know of any local (affordable, if nec) ASL classes. They may even have events that some staff attend.

Pick one of the Deaf churches. Go there. Maybe join. Don't be "looking for a friend". Just put yourself in that environment and at least get to have some brief contact with Deaf people. They'll at least see you, it's a start. You'll be nice, maybe they'll like you.
 
You're right. My bad. Sorry for asking. I was definitely not looking for a deaf person JUST to learn ASL. It IS true that you won't get good at it unless you have a deaf friend. But what I wanted was an ACTUAL friend. Lots of them. BUT...being a hearing person (as well as the fact that everything is so sensitive)...I don't know how to become ACTUAL friends. There aren't too many deaf people in my area and there aren't a bunch of classes or even just interpreters to learn from...which is why I'm teaching myself. I WON'T meet a deaf person naturally. I HAVE to seek them out and THAT is what they assume is me being disrespectful. Without their help, I can't learn very good. But without having learned good, I can't talk to them to become ACTUAL friends. So, it all seems pretty hopeless. I can't try to help the deaf community and teach my family and friends without first coming across as rude. And that sucks. I think that even saying I want to "help" in the deaf community is considered rude since I don't think people want you to think of them as needing help. Not that I meant it that way, but like I said, everything is so sensitive. I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. But at least now I know not to ask questions. Again, sorry for offending.
 
For Amylynne

Amylynne I read your post and liked the detail in it.

First I must tell you why I am on this site. I am a 68 year old male, retired, and mentoring at a Middle School (my wife was a nurse at that same school for many years). Just by chance I sat down by two 7th grade girls who happened to be deaf (I did not know that at the time and it would have made no difference anyway).

Both of them are shy but one is very! shy. I believe both are just as "smart -capable" as any other kid in that school. Unfortunately they have been segregated to some place I'll call "other". I want to overcome that.

I need help with accomplishing the following (if the approach is different from a deaf person's point of view - if not, then the approach is the same as with a hearing person).

How do I help them overcome shyness?
How do I help them speak louder (part of shyness, I think)?
How do I get them to say "no" or "I don't understand" or "say that again"?
How do I get them to be more proud of what they accomplish?

I expect them to do everything the other kids do. I don't expect them to half-complete tasks and it to be OK (even if the teacher assigns a lesser task). I expect full compliance, just as is expected from all the other kids.

How do I do this stuff? Can you help me figure it out from the point of view of a deaf person?

Thank you for your response.

GH
 
kmarie2513 said:
You're right. My bad. Sorry for asking. I was definitely not looking for a deaf person JUST to learn ASL. It IS true that you won't get good at it unless you have a deaf friend. But what I wanted was an ACTUAL friend. Lots of them. BUT...being a hearing person (as well as the fact that everything is so sensitive)...I don't know how to become ACTUAL friends. There aren't too many deaf people in my area and there aren't a bunch of classes or even just interpreters to learn from...which is why I'm teaching myself. I WON'T meet a deaf person naturally. I HAVE to seek them out and THAT is what they assume is me being disrespectful. Without their help, I can't learn very good. But without having learned good, I can't talk to them to become ACTUAL friends. So, it all seems pretty hopeless. I can't try to help the deaf community and teach my family and friends without first coming across as rude. And that sucks. I think that even saying I want to "help" in the deaf community is considered rude since I don't think people want you to think of them as needing help. Not that I meant it that way, but like I said, everything is so sensitive. I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. But at least now I know not to ask questions. Again, sorry for offending.
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It *does* feel like a big catch 22 in the beginning. You can't learn ASL without interacting with someone who knows the language, but why would they want to interact with someone who doesn't know ASL? Like trying to get a job so you can afford a car, but you can't buy a car because you don't have any money because you don't have a job.

Honestly, I've been there. You keep at it and eventually you do get past that hopeless feeling place. You keep learning and eventually you hit a tipping point where you have enough to offer that you can get more of what you need.

So, *do* start going to that church. Don't worry about interacting with the Deaf people yet. Maybe smile and wave hello or something, at least get yourself out there.

Do call the school, ask if they need *any* kind of volunteering. Ask if they have events that are open to the public. Ask if they know of anyone who would teach/tutor asl.

Keep studying on your own, but also borrow some library books on Deaf history and Deaf Culture.

PLEASE get some paid instruction from a competent teacher. There are ways to do this online - I'll look for some links later today.

And you're right, talking about helping Deaf people isn't a good idea. Number one, Deaf people don't generally like being thought of as needing help. Second, as you said, you're not in a position to help them. Right now you need *their* help. So go in with that attitude - one of humility and gratitude.
 
Also, I never said not to ask questions. I think asking questions is great and completely necessary. But maybe start by listening. Reading. Here, from the library, etc. Then you're less likely to put your foot in your mouth.

One thing I would stop doing immediately is referring to the Deaf community's reactions to you (or reactions you're imagining they'll have to you) as sensitive. Just start educating yourself about the culture and keep your brain in gear - focus on *why* some of these things could be upsetting, let that understanding inform your approach.
 
And if you say something stupid, don't delete it. That's just annoying to the rest of us who come along later.

That's a good reason to quote the person you are trying to instruct.
 
kmarie, I noticed you deleted your original post. I just want to be clear - I went out of my way to offer you (a beginner who's feeling hopeless) some advice on how to go from here, and I put a fair amount of energy into that. Deleting your post is pretty disrespectful at this point. People can't see what I was responding to, I can't look at it for reference, etc. I don't mind helping, but if you're going to yank out parts of the conversation from under me, I've got better things to do with my time.
 
GH Pots said:
Amylynne I read your post and liked the detail in it.

First I must tell you why I am on this site. I am a 68 year old male, retired, and mentoring at a Middle School (my wife was a nurse at that same school for many years). Just by chance I sat down by two 7th grade girls who happened to be deaf (I did not know that at the time and it would have made no difference anyway).

Both of them are shy but one is very! shy. I believe both are just as "smart -capable" as any other kid in that school. Unfortunately they have been segregated to some place I'll call "other". I want to overcome that.

I need help with accomplishing the following (if the approach is different from a deaf person's point of view - if not, then the approach is the same as with a hearing person).

How do I help them overcome shyness?
How do I help them speak louder (part of shyness, I think)?
How do I get them to say "no" or "I don't understand" or "say that again"?
How do I get them to be more proud of what they accomplish?

I expect them to do everything the other kids do. I don't expect them to half-complete tasks and it to be OK (even if the teacher assigns a lesser task). I expect full compliance, just as is expected from all the other kids.

How do I do this stuff?...
Click to expand...

Back to GH:

First, great that you're doing that. I don't have answers to all your questions. I do some work with Deaf kids, but they're not alone in a mainstream program.

My thoughts on "How do I get them to be more proud of what they accomplish?"

When I'm working with a student and they succeed at something I'm trying to teach them, I don't just tell them good job. I let it show in my face that I'm impressed and excited (not surprised, just psyched) about what they did.

"How do I get them to say "no" or "I don't understand" or "say that again"?

This one will probably be different for you than for me, but I'll tell you my situation, maybe you can find something analogous.

I am conversant in ASL, but not fully fluent. My signing is very good for how long I've been at it (I think!) but I still struggle with receptive. The kids I work with are very good at that. So I let them know right away that they're better at it than I am. That sometimes I'll miss something they say and I'll need to ask them to repeat (we sign all the time here). They've been really great about that, and I let them know how very much I appreciate them, their attitude, and how helpful that is to me. (Just working with them helps me practice my receptive skills.) I do all this because it's completely genuine - I can't get over how lucky I am to have this opportunity to be here at all. But in light of your question, I think it probably also helps offset any potential feelings of being nervous around me or afraid to ask something, etc.

Your situation is different: I assume these kids are oral deaf, and that you're working in English, but maybe there's something you can learn about them that they're better at than you are. Something to be impressed about, something to make them realize they bring something to the table too. I think if you start to build from there, they have a better chance at finding the confidence to ask for clarifications when they miss something. That probably addresses the other two questions to some degree, now that I think about it.

I think the things you're bringing up are of some depth, and the outward signs don't necessarily respond well to direct attempts to change them. But indirect attempts, like doing things that help build the strength necessary to confront one's fears, or maybe eventually start feeling them less in the first place, I think those can be effective and very worthwhile.

Thanks for asking and good luck!
 
Bot right dont delte people get to know your style ..There are deaf clubs that have socials and hearing invited maybe ask someone, sadly deaf clubs not so many..
Start by saying hi and a smile
 
Bottesini said:
And if you say something stupid, don't delete it. That's just annoying to the rest of us who come along later.

That's a good reason to quote the person you are trying to instruct.
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I try to do that too , as I notice when you do to response to a comment others may not be sure who you're talking to and they'll think it is them and they'll get upset and it can get confusing to clear things up.
 
Amylynn (I'm new at this so excuse the post direction)

Thank you for your response. It makes sense. Let me tell you more about what I have done.

We talked about language and how it is different (one girl had shut down talking because some boy said she sounded "funny"). I told her she simply had the accent of a deaf person exactly like a German has the accent of a German. I also said she knew two languages (she corrected me - it is three) and I only knew one.

I have told them, since I don't know their language they need to help me understand by speaking English as much as possible. I also said I did not want to turn them into English-speaking kids since they did just fine with their language.

I have encouraged them every step of the way and rewarded one of them with a bag of trail-mix for taking some extra work home and doing it. It was a writing assignment. This is something I came up with and it was not a class project. She has now done 4-5 writing assignments and seems to look forward to them. They are "tell me about your dog" sort of assignments.

Just last Friday one of them completed a task before anybody in the room but it was at the very last of the class and I did not have time to make a big deal about it. I will on Tuesday, when they come back.

It may be telling but both of them said they liked a boy who is sitting about 10 feet away. He is hearing. He is a pretty good looking kid and I can certainly understand their attraction but the fact they would tell me suggests some confidence/trust on their part.

I just constantly feel like I am missing something. There is some door I have not checked that will get them to say "help me with this project because I don't understand it". They seem to indicate understanding and everything is OK and I learn later they have no idea what to do. At that point their frustration comes to the surface very fast and they shut down even more.

Anything you, or anybody else for that matter, can shed on all of this would be appreciated.

What do I get out of it? The feeling I have helped somebody who (I think) needs help.
 
GH Pots said:
I just constantly feel like I am missing something. There is some door I have not checked that will get them to say "help me with this project because I don't understand it". They seem to indicate understanding and everything is OK and I learn later they have no idea what to do. At that point their frustration comes to the surface very fast and they shut down even more.
Click to expand...

Sometimes when I sit down with a student (I'm thinking of hearing college students, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work across the board) and they have a math problem to do, I'll say "What's confusing about this problem?" Or ask them where they're getting stuck, or ask them if they can explain what the problem is asking.

Asking where the problem is relieves them of the stress of having to tell you there's a problem. You're just asking for details. And if they say "no problem" then you can say "oh great - how will you go about doing this then?"

That's assuming that your primary goal (at least for now) is to become aware of when they need help. Actually getting them to tell you on their own is a deeper issue, I think. Maybe a longer process for that.
 
GH Pots said:
...both of them said they liked a boy who is sitting about 10 feet away. He is hearing. He is a pretty good looking kid and I can certainly understand their attraction ....
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This makes me think that maybe you're up against something pretty powerful. Can he hear the interaction between you and your mentees from where he's sitting? If he can, and if they have the sense that he can, that might make it beyond dreadful for them to say they don't understand something. They don't want him to hear them asking for (or receiving) help. They don't want him to think they're stupid. That probably matters much more to them at this point in their lives than much of anything someone like you or me would have to offer.
 
Amylynn - excellent thoughts

My daughter is a counselor at a middle school some miles from here and she mentioned something similar when offering praise. Don't say "I am proud of you" but say "You must be proud of yourself". It follows that I would be better asking if they DO understand something than if I ask if they DON'T understand something. It is easier for them to respond.

The other (and very important part) is one of the written lessons I sent home with the more vocal of the two girls (the other won't do it). I forget the exact question but she said she was "scared of Mr. C." and then (in writing) asked me not to say anything to him about what she had written.

It may well be that if they say they don't understand something or are doing something incorrectly it will be met with a fairly harsh response.

I'll try those two things Tuesday when I go back. I'll try to get them to positively identify themselves with accomplishing something and tell them that if they need to talk to Mr. C. that I will act in their support. We will go over the question before we talk to him and (if possible) I will provide the most likely answer. (Cut down on the surprises.)

I, by the way, have that paper at home and told the girl there was no chance Mr. C would ever see it.

I'll let you know how it goes sometime next week. These are bright kids. They just speak a different language that I don't understand (and one of them has a dog that she says is mean because it bites!).

GH
 
This thread is pointless without quote. I hAd no idea what is it all about. Too bad it didn't give deaf a chance to speak their mind here first.
 
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