God Versus Satan

[Liebling:-)))]

Castles? How far back does the history of a castle go? To the beginning of time? I don't think so.

Yes, a castle is there and you can see and feel it. But does the castle tell you everything about the people and events that put it there? It can offer clues but it can't tell you everything. Also, the clues can be interpreted differently by different historians. How do you know which interpretations to believe?

What about places that don't have castles? What about their history?

Museums? Museums have only a portion of historical material that is produced. What about all the documents that were lost or destroyed? What about the events that weren't written down? What about the documents that contain lies? How do you accept that history?

How do you know they are "fact"? Do you personally know the authors?



Huh? Where did that come from? What does that have to do with the events of the Bible? United States history is not in the Bible.



Any European history less than 2,000 years old is not in the Bible. What about events that happened before that time? What history do you know about the world before people wrote down important events? There are no "originals" for them.

If there is "proof" that "stays forever" then why do historians disagree with each other, and why do the history books change every decade?

You don't trust the Bible because it has various "human authors", but you do trust the "human authors" of secular history.

All what I see is real originals and facts in real life... they have proofs... If you don´t beleive your own country history then is your choice.

I thought we talk about histories in general since you asked me question about history... Oh, it´s bible we should talk about... Okay... I only accept and read the bible story as history and can´t say either they are lie or not because they have no original and proofs but just bible stories... Other histories of countries are the fact because they have originals. If you see different then I can´t help you.

Anyway, we have different original proofs etc everywhere... and make histories... sometimes they are not prefect but mainly important is proofs and originals...

but the bible? There´re soooo many different bibles, the authors interpreted differently... which correct bibles???????? Perhap Islam is correct one?????? you never know?????

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I guess I shouldn't have asked a German that question.

Do you mean there is nothing your government could order you to do that you you would disobey in order to save someone's life? Even the life of your child or husband?



Sigh...that's what the German Jews thought in 1937. You say that you study history but I guess you don't learn from it. Oh, well.

Oh yes history is my moviation... because I am interesting to learn anything more in everyday... It doesn´t mean that I know everything to 100% but I only say what I know. Should I make a lot of :topic: posts here what I know a lot about jews and Nazi´s history here? I believe that I already posted a lot about Nazi´s history in some threads. It´s bad if you can´t remember it.

 

[Tousi]

Leibling, I have seen you say many, many times something like: "I like to collect information about different perspectives in religion, etc....." While this is alright but if you do this all your life; accept/respect everyone's viewpoint, you will come to the end of your life and not make a PERSONAL decision for your own inner self, something abstract that you hold dear, something that is like a compass with one leg going around and around, tasting all life's viewpoints; hopefully you will make a personal choice that will guide you; that leg of the compass will come home to the center where the other fixed leg is.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Leibling, I have seen you say many, many times something like: "I like to collect information about different perspectives in religion, etc....." While this is alright but if you do this all your life; accept/respect everyone's viewpoint, you will come to the end of your life and not make a PERSONAL decision for your own inner self, something abstract that you hold dear, something that is like a compass with one leg going around and around, tasting all life's viewpoints; hopefully you will make a personal choice that will guide you; that leg of the compass will come home to the center where the other fixed leg is.

For your information, I am allow to post openly whatever I think and see as long as I didn´t break AD forum rule, don´t I?

Everyone including us feel free to share our viewpoints what we think and feeling after see the logic as long as there´re no bash/insult/disrespect... Is it forbidden or what?

Can you show me where I disrespect/unaccept their viewpoints or beliefs? I do not see anything where I have say here to against their beliefs or viewpoinst but debate with agree to disagree over the difference logic between the bible and reality.

 

[Tousi]

For your information, I am allow to post openly whatever I think and see as long as I didn´t break AD forum rule, don´t I?

Everyone including us feel free to share our viewpoints what we think and feeling after see the logic as long as there´re no bash/insult/disrespect... Is it forbidden or what?

Can you show me where I disrespect/unaccept their viewpoints or beliefs? I do not see anything where I have say here to against their beliefs or viewpoinst but debate with agree to disagree over the difference logic between the bible and reality.

Oh, boy, Leibling; I am sorry that you did not see my message of encouragement and comfort. I guess i will go and sit in the corner.

 

[Cheri]

I guess i will go and sit in the corner.

Bad Tousi

 

[Reba]

They knew they're not supposed to eat the fruit. They knew that they would be punished for eating the fruit.
The bible didn´t say anything that God threat to punish them if they touch or eat the fruit. All what the bible says is "God told them they could eat food from the trees of the garden. But from one ree God said not to eat, or else they would die. He kept that tree as his own. And we know it is wrong to take something that belongs to someone else, don´t we?" I do not see that God warned them that they will get punish if they eat the fruit.

The death penalty is not "punishment"?

No I do not aviod your questions but you... Because I repeat and repeat in my previous posts to compare Eve & Adam with children in reality... Why should I repeat ?

That wasn't my question. My question was:

"If God did it that way would it really make a difference to you? If inherited sin began with Adam and Eve's second "mistake" instead of their first one, would it make a difference in your acceptance of Jesus as Savior?"

It requires only a "yes" or "no" answer.

It make no sense to me.

I'm truly sorry about that.

If it´s really true that he offers forgiveness to everyone who don´t beleive in him, but why kill them? It make no sense.

God is forgiving. That's why He provided a way for you to be forgiven. He offers forgiveness to you. It's not His fault that you refuse His forgiveness.

Suppose you tell your son to not play soccer in the house. He disobeys, kicks the soccer ball in the house, and the ball smashes a rare vase that your grandmother gave you. Your son says he's very sorry, and he won't do it again. You forgive him. However, the vase is still destroyed. The broken vase is a consequence of disobedience. You love your son, he's sorry, and you forgive him. But that doesn't fix the vase. It is forever broken. Forgiveness doesn't put the vase back together again.

Sure, I would be very upset over that broken rare vase which is special matter to me but I don´t kick him out of my house and garden for his disobedience over that. I would say that my son is a more matter to me than material.

You totally missed the point. In my example, I said that you FORGAVE your son. I didn't say anything about kicking him out of the house. I said that the CONSEQUENCE of the disobedience was that the vase was permanently broken. I did NOT say the vase was more important than the son. I said the vase was broken. Just because you forgive someone, the vase doesn't stick itself back together again. You can say the vase is unimportant, that you don't care, whatever; that doesn't matter. The pieces of the vase are still shattered. That's the CONSEQUENCE. It has nothing to do with anger or value. It's just a fact.

Yes I know but forgiveness is more matter than consequence.

One is not "more" than the other; they are two totally different things. "Green" is not more matter than "Blue". They are different. The consequence remains the same whether or not forgiveness is involved.

The vase breaks. Mom forgives son. The vase is still broken.
The vase breaks. Mom doesn't forgive son. The vase is still broken.

The consequence doesn't change.

If a drunk driver kills your son, your son is dead whether or not you forgive the driver. Forgiving the driver doesn't bring your son back to life. Revenge against the driver doesn't bring your son back to life. The consequence of the accident is a dead son.

Okay, why can´t God protect his people from 9/11 then?

God knows the big picture and the future, we don't. His people as a race or entire population wasn't at risk that day. God does things in His way, at His time.

What I am doing is self-defense to save children´s life which is different as God. It´s not a self-defense what God did to the people.

How is it different? God prevented His whole people from being wiped out. Why are you allowed to defend your children but God is not allowed to defend His?

Disagree... God only told them to not eat the fruit, they will die. No even threaten to punish them if they eat the fruit...

You don't think the threat of death is serious punishment?

My bible didn´t say anything. God didn´t tell them about Satan´s existance. They would sure to not touch the fruit tree if they know about Satan´s existance.

What difference does the existence of Satan make as far as obeying God goes? If God told them not to do something, they just need to obey God. It doesn't matter what Satan tells them, or what Adam or Eve tell each other.

Would you accept that excuse from your son? Suppose you tell him he can't go to Joe's house after school but Joe says, "Yeah, it's OK, come to my house." If your son goes to Joe's house, is he disobeying you? Yes. If he says, "but Joe said it was OK," do you accept that excuse? Do you say, "Oh, I didn't warn you that Joe might lie to you, so you're not responsible for disobeying me."

 

[Reba]

For your information, I am allow to post openly whatever I think and see as long as I didn´t break AD forum rule, don´t I?

Everyone including us feel free to share our viewpoints what we think and feeling after see the logic as long as there´re no bash/insult/disrespect... Is it forbidden or what?

Can you show me where I disrespect/unaccept their viewpoints or beliefs? I do not see anything where I have say here to against their beliefs or viewpoinst but debate with agree to disagree over the difference logic between the bible and reality.

Wow, where did THAT come from?!

Tousi kindly put his arm around your shoulder and gave you some gentle, fatherly advice, and you got bent out of shape about AD rules.

I expect that for my "harsh" posts but Tousi's post in no way earned that kind of response.

 

[Reba]

... I guess i will go and sit in the corner.

That's OK; Cheri and I will join you there.

 

[Tousi]

Thanks, you two! I'm sure Leibling understands now. But, looking at the clock, I think she's getting her beauty sleep now. Lol...

 

[Maria]

*throws a bible to Tousi in the corner* lol

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Oh, boy, Leibling; I am sorry that you did not see my message of encouragement and comfort. I guess i will go and sit in the corner.

*walk to Tousi, Tousi and sorry*

I was about turn computer off before go to bedtime after chat with my friends and check this forum again once more here and saw your post and was in hurry to answer your post without read carefully. It look like that I overlook your post... *sorry*

 

[Liebling:-)))]

The death penalty is not "punishment"?

Yes, that's right. Death penalty is not punishment but murder.

God is forgiving. That's why He provided a way for you to be forgiven. He offers forgiveness to you. It's not His fault that you refuse His forgiveness.

I do not see that anyone refused his forgiveness but don't beleive in him. This is a difference.

You totally missed the point. In my example, I said that you FORGAVE your son. I didn't say anything about kicking him out of the house. I said that the CONSEQUENCE of the disobedience was that the vase was permanently broken. I did NOT say the vase was more important than the son. I said the vase was broken. Just because you forgive someone, the vase doesn't stick itself back together again. You can say the vase is unimportant, that you don't care, whatever; that doesn't matter. The pieces of the vase are still shattered. That's the CONSEQUENCE. It has nothing to do with anger or value. It's just a fact.

Yes, yes, yes I know that... and know what you are talking about and know that you didn't said anything about kicking him out of the house etc but I only compare your example over the rare vase with God what/how he did with Eve and Adam. God kicked Eve & Adam out of the garden because of that consequence of the disobedience what I did to my son differently than God. I don't kick my son out of the house over that. Understand?

Yes, that's right there're no replacement for the rare vase or never fix to correct the vase forever... I am agree that it's hurt but I choose to forgive him instead of kick him out of house over that. Understand what I am trying to saying to compare your example over the rare vase with God over the difference between forgiveness and consequence. I choose to forgive Eve and Adam over consequence which I know it's hurt but I don't kick them out of garden.

One is not "more" than the other; they are two totally different things. "Green" is not more matter than "Blue". They are different. The consequence remains the same whether or not forgiveness is involved.

The vase breaks. Mom forgives son. The vase is still broken.
The vase breaks. Mom doesn't forgive son. The vase is still broken.

The consequence doesn't change.

Yes that's right but mom don't kick her son out of the house/garden over that.

If a drunk driver kills your son, your son is dead whether or not you forgive the driver. Forgiving the driver doesn't bring your son back to life. Revenge against the driver doesn't bring your son back to life. The consequence of the accident is a dead son.

I know there're form of consequences and forgiveness but we are here to talk about the compare the forgiveness and consequences of the disobedience between Eve&Adam and children here. Right?

God knows the big picture and the future, we don't.

Yes, that's right but he didn't stop it in first place when he knows what happeend to this earth?

How is it different? God prevented His whole people from being wiped out. Why are you allowed to defend your children but God is not allowed to defend His?

No, you can't compared the self-defense between the attackers to the people and God because they did total different. I came to defend to save a child's life from a attacker who tries to kill him/her. If I killed an attackers which mean is self-defense. God didn't but punish millions people to death or whatever... It's not self-defense but punishment.

You don't think the threat of death is serious punishment?

What difference does the existence of Satan make as far as obeying God goes? If God told them not to do something, they just need to obey God. It doesn't matter what Satan tells them, or what Adam or Eve tell each other.

Do you mean that you don't have to explain your children why they should not talk to the strangers but just warned them to not talk the strangers, then they will die... Is it all what you want to say this to your children?
No, I would never do that... I warned my children to not talk a stranger and explain them why......... and must sure that my children aware something they should not do... and show them the pictures or police TV...

Would you accept that excuse from your son? Suppose you tell him he can't go to Joe's house after school but Joe says, "Yeah, it's OK, come to my house." If your son goes to Joe's house, is he disobeying you? Yes. If he says, "but Joe said it was OK," do you accept that excuse? Do you say, "Oh, I didn't warn you that Joe might lie to you, so you're not responsible for disobeying me."

My boys knows my rules. I let them know that it will be threat to be ground for their disobence. Children need parental's discipline to know what they will expect if they disobey their parent's rules. God didn't tell them that they will be expect to kick out of the garden if they disobey his rule. It's same thing with law as well... The punishment will be expect if we disobey their law then we will aware what we expect from the law for break their law.

This is a difference.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

How is it different? God prevented His whole people from being wiped out. Why are you allowed to defend your children but God is not allowed to defend His?

Question again...

You claim/insist that God defend his people which I disagree to...

*look at innoncent babies, toddlers and children?* Why they have to die when he know that they are not bad people, attackers or whatever, that's because their parents don't beleive in him? This is not self-defense what the God did to the people but punish them to death. I only defend to myself to save my life or my child's life to against one attacker, not millions attackers including babies, toddlers and children. This is a difference.

 

[christlovedeaf]

Yes it's my opinion that you read the Bible is worship and do what they says. If you want to experience God then do something yourself after read the bible as history, not do what the bible say because you believe the bible come from God's word.

Here is the problem, you plucked part of my saying and no wondering missing my point and either overlooked or ignored. Here what I said, when i read the Bible, and also experience real life, studied histories, and when I begin to see what God is saying and also science,people has a backup what the Bible is saying. That is where I begin to see, Bible has a whole message,, about what? The coming of the Messiah. What's going on around the world, Bingo. Bible already mentioned what is going to happen. And we are now living """before Ark will be ready to close the door while Noah is warning people now"""".

 

[Cheri]

Liebling,
You keep defend your beliefs based on your family including your children as an example what God should be. Remind yourself here, that you're a sinner, even your family are also sinners, God who is not. Because God is so much greater than we are, it's inappropriate for us to try to use our reason to evaluate whether God's actions or plans are bad or good. The first thing to keep in mind is that you're a sinner, so is your family, God who is without sin cannot be complete the same as you, and your rest of your family based on how you raise your boys. You live in a evil world, not in God's world which is heaven. Heaven is a place where there's no sins, where there's no disobedience. On earth there's a lot of sins, bad things happen. where people are cruel, some people inflict pain, suffering and torture on others, etc. because we live in a world where "evil exists".

Some people are ignorant of God's "big picture", His reason of laws, God who is delight in justice and righteousness does not mean or make God a murder, or wrong for what he does.

Just like when you committed a crime, justice will be serve for the crime you committed, is that wrong? If you were sent to death row, awaiting to be execution, would you call that murder for putting you to death for the crime you committed? I don't believe it as a murder, I believe in justice the same way God would see it.

 

[Cheri]

Jesus is the one who went through so much more than anyone, He's who willing to suffered and died a vicarious death in order to pay for our sins, who would do something like that for us? He died for you, Why not you live for him instead of judging him. When I said "judging" I mean God, because Jesus is God.


Watch the movie "Passion of Christ" feel the pains Jesus felt that day, he did it all for us, us sinners. It's sad that some people just don't want to believe it, or don't care.

 

[christlovedeaf]

Problem with so call "logic", there is "logic" in both side. Like human, the devil says the same to Eve which tempted Eve, " Surely you won't die, if you eat that fruit, you will be like God...." Does that sounds familiar in today's human being? Obvious, yes. Satan throws at us to put in the "blame game". See what God did, and look, here where the logic is, and "make sense", as by putting the negative views of God. And have no clue why God did this and overlook behind it which God already see the harmful that can get to people, God tried/tries to prevent it, but people go ahead with it, and what people do? Blame God. Blinded the whole picture/message what God is planning for people, yet, blaming God.

 

[Cheri]

Problem with so call "logic", there is "logic" in both side. Like human, the devil says the same to Eve which tempted Eve, " Surely you won't die, if you eat that fruit, you will be like God...." Does that sounds familiar in today's human being? Obvious, yes. Satan throws at us to put in the "blame game". See what God did, and look, here where the logic is, and "make sense", as by putting the negative views of God. And have no clue why God did this and overlook behind it which God already see the harmful that can get to people, God tried/tries to prevent it, but people go ahead with it, and what people do? Blame God. Blinded the whole picture/message what God is planning for people, yet, blaming God.

!! I agree buddy.

 

[Angel]

:run in:

given Liebling)) a


then

:run off: ....