Free Will or Fate

[Maria]

Very interestin' debate.....

 

[Endymion]

Actually, the part about humans being unfathomable is true, for example a man rape a dog, and molested 2 childrens. Let us ask ourselves, why?
If Fate truly existed, would God had intended for innocecnt children to be violated, No. Thus by this Fate's existence is highly doubtful

The problem, however, is that your argument depends on a merciful and benevolent diety who will not allow a child to be raped and has no purpose for it.

Often when something bad happens to us, we say, "God works in mysterious ways." "God has a purpose for it." Following a similar line of thought, you can argue that God had a purpose for a tragic, awful event like that to happen to a child. All of a sudden, the argument against fate you provide has no more base.

Furthermore, with "evil happening to a child" in mind, I also suggest to you the famous Riddle of Epicurus (bear in mind, the Riddle of Epicurus has flaws and you can argue against it):

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Yet, again, you're right about free will having implications but, For example. A man smokes for 10 years and then decides to stop smoking. That is free will. Now some of you may argue that this is not free will because it is determined that the health side-effects was too dangerous to the man.

The Heretic says, "Free will cannot be proven through self-awareness, because sifting through one’s own self-awareness will only locate the illusion of freedom."

The argument you provide is doing just that, it uses a certain recognition of "self-awareness" to substantiate free will. A good example of what's going on is like saying, "Johnny is a turtle because Johnny says he's a turtle." If you really look at Johnny, he isn't a turtle. What's happening here is called circular logic.

Here is yet another example of why I believe free will to exist. The non-believer exercise HIS will not to believe in any deity.

What about people who never learn of a deity? In the world famous classic, The Divine Comedy Dante reminds his reader that the Roman poet Virgil cannot ascend to Heaven because Virgil lived before the time of Christ.

Also, think of a lab rat. If you consistently zap a lab rat with electricity for chasing cheese, invariably the rat will stop chasing cheese. Now apply the example to a child. Let's say someone whips a child every time the child shows faith in God. This goes on for eighteen years. Now is the child's rejection of God really his fault? Is it his free will or has he been preconditioned to hate mention of the deity? You can extend this to so many other things, like peer pressure, social control, etc.

 

[Rose Immortal]

What about people who never learn of a deity? In the world famous classic, The Divine Comedy Dante reminds his reader that the Roman poet Virgil cannot ascend to Heaven because Virgil lived before the time of Christ.

I don't think all Christians would agree with Dante. Have you ever read the Narnia Chronicles, all the way to the Last Battle? There's quite a surprise at the end of that book that might interest you. Don't want to post spoilers for anybody, though...you'll just have to read it for yourself.

 

[web730]

I'm not as good a debater as The Heretic but it seems to me our lives are a combination of free will and fate.

Some circumstances that take place around us are fate...acts of nature especially. But our choices, our responses are our choice. I think God presents us with choices that He arranges, but again, our decisions are ours.

Pretty much right on Rose Immortal's part.

There is no such fate or luck. I learnt more in later life. Choices made that create happenings except the nature part. True.

 

[thewinterknight]

I forgot what we was talking about, lol. But seriously if we was in a world where free will was not present then why do we have affairs and drinking driving

Yes, I am aware of the basic male instinct to spread his seed please do not remind me of that especially you Heretic.

 

[Endymion]

I forgot what we was talking about, lol. But seriously if we was in a world where free will was not present then why do we have affairs and drinking driving

Yes, I am aware of the basic male instinct to spread his seed please do not remind me of that especially you Heretic.

Interesting question. ROFL on the seed by the way.

You gave me an idea! I'll give you all the credit for it.

Let's say you are a computer programmer. You program a computer world where you have little byte-monsters walking around. You program the byte-monsters to think they're alive and to think they have free will. They think they do, but remember you programmed them to think that and you programmed them how to act. They don't have free will.

Can we prove that reality is different? What if we've been programmed to think we have free will?

 

[ayala920]

I like to take a more simplistic view, one not developed from studying philosophy or the likes, but merely from my experiences.

I like to think (in my sometimes-happy, always-twisted) little head that it's a little bit of both. That there are several different paths down which we may go, and which we choose determines what happens next. Have you ever read those books where that will have a passage, then say, "If you choose to go through the door, turn to page 83. If you want to leave the room, go to page 117"? I like to think life is like that.

Then again, that's just how I view it. I've no facts or studies to back that up.

 

[Rose Immortal]

That's kinda what I think, ayala. And I LOOOOOOOOOOVE those Choose Your Own Adventure books! Why don't they publish new ones anymore?

 

[thewinterknight]

Let's say you are a computer programmer. You program a computer world where you have little byte-monsters walking around. You program the byte-monsters to think they're alive and to think they have free will. They think they do, but remember you programmed them to think that and you programmed them how to act. They don't have free will.

Can we prove that reality is different? What if we've been programmed to think we have free will?

So is that sorta like the Matrix movies but what if free will is only a mock of fate. Then why do we have the ability to walk away from a fight or to fight. That is a free decision. I know that some men are naturally fighters and some naturally cowards but, what if we could in fact decide what we want to think, is that a example of free will, and by the way Ayala, that was a good example of free will, I applaud you.

 

[thewinterknight]

*Gets up from The Heretic's underhand blow* Here is yet an another example of why free will exist!! I choose to undress The Heretic inside my mind despite the fact I'm straight and I'm *screams as the Heretic's clothes falls off* My god he's gruesome! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

 

[The Heretic]

It would be easy to charge people with ignoratio elenchi, but nonetheless...

In willed behavior, the movement of our bodies are determined by our motives, and those motives are causes we experience from within, from the inside. Motivation is actually causation that passes through knowledge.

In many situations there are external factors that may stimulate action, only if it affects the person through his organs of perception, or arouse conscious/unconscious feelings of desire/fear/hunger/lust, and they in turn motivate the appropriate bodily movements. it is true that the possibilities of subtlety and sophistication in humans are endless, but no matter how numerous or conflicting the motives may be in any situation, whatever results is always the strongest motivation.

And that we can never freely decide for ourselves what that motivation will be.

The prevalence of unconscious motivation is enough to demonstrate this, but I will go further, and give an example at the level of conscious choice.

Suppose you're at a restaurant, about to order a meal. You may be free to choose whatever you like from the menu. However, you are not to free to choose what "what you like" will be. You cannot just go and say "My entire life, i've always hated spinach, but today, i'm going to like it." Nor can you just say "Shall I decide that i am in the mood for fish, or shall i decide that I am in the mood for chicken?"

What you are in the mood for, and what you like or hate, are not at your command. They NOT "matters of choice" for you, for they are given to you as accomplished facts, and on the basis of them, you make your choice. You can choose whatever it is you wish to choose, but you cannot will what it is that you shall wish to choose. You can only choose what you will, but you cannot will what you will.

Q. E. D.

 

[Beowulf]

Just my luck, to start off this day with reading this thread. Was it by choice or was it predetermined? According to Eastern philosophy, the predetermined nature of life is most often referred to as karma. Whatever happens is considered to be predetermined, and I feel inclined to nod in agreement with the sentiment, for after all, whatever happened happened, no getting around that.
According to the predeterminists, I may want another spoon of sugar in this cup of coffee, but what I feel is irrelevant. My feelings, like anything else in this dawn's world of dreams, is predetermined. If I spill the scalding coffee into my lap, it is predetermined or otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
It is all illusion, but try telling that to my testicles.
Well, gotta work.
I'd like to get my hands on the guy who made THAT predetermined.

 

[thewinterknight]

Hmmm. Damn, No one believe in free will, in a book I recently read, forgot the title, it was a magna or something. Anyways, in this story this boy was hated by his peers and his elders for something he didn't do. Now as the Heretic was kind enough to point out, logically the boy should had hated back in return. But instead, the boy grew up with a hopeful expression pasted on his face all the time, he trusted people who cheated him, he's not that naive,

This boy grew up believing in fairness despite the fact that he never experienced it. I don't know about y'all but, I think this is a good example of free will.

Also yet another example. I can sit here and choose to write whatever I want to, Fate simply don't care about minor details but what if Free will and Fate was in fact entwined in a grand ball of yarn. That could explains the big events in our lives seems predetermined but what about the minor events like writing a paper or looking at the sky.

I may just be sputtering pure crap out here.

 

[jazzy]

Filling in between birth and death is our own free will.
Birth and death come with fate, we don't have free will on this one.

 

[The Heretic]

Anyways, in this story this boy was hated by his peers and his elders for something he didn't do. Now as the Heretic was kind enough to point out, logically the boy should had hated back in return. But instead, the boy grew up with a hopeful expression pasted on his face all the time, he trusted people who cheated him, he's not that naive, This boy grew up believing in fairness despite the fact that he never experienced it. I don't know about y'all but, I think this is a good example of free will.

I didn't "point out logically" anything of the sort.

In my previous posts, I only argued that free will is an illusion, that you cannot prove it from self-awareness, and that motivation are actually causation experienced from within.

I never said that a person who grew up in a hateful environment would be also a hateful person. That's entirely different, and demonstrates a complete failure of comprehension.

Also yet another example. I can sit here and choose to write whatever I want to, Fate simply don't care about minor details but what if Free will and Fate was in fact entwined in a grand ball of yarn. That could explains the big events in our lives seems predetermined but what about the minor events like writing a paper or looking at the sky.

Fate is an old concept carried over from the ancient world, where it was a more powerful force than the gods. Ever since the inception of Christianity, fate was reduced to merely God's will. The appropriate opposite concept to free will is determinism, not fate.

I may just be sputtering pure crap out here.

There's a reason why we do not know the day of our death, and we are spared of the knowledge of our fate. That is why we delude ourselves with the belief we have free will and go on behaving as if we can make a difference. If I told you when you are going to die, that your death is inescapable, your life will be completely shattered by this knowledge.

 

[Beowulf]

Filling in between birth and death is our own free will.
Birth and death come with fate, we don't have free will on this one.

It seems that way, doesn't it? But when you consider that we are talking about a minicule portion of eternity, then that portion simply does not exist simply because nothing is divisible within that frame. In eternity, where would you find even a nanosecond? That is purely within our own heads and comes from Ego.