Facts About Evolution

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Rose Immortal said:
I'm not sure that's MAINSTREAM Christianity--however, mass media Christianity (i.e. the Left Behind series), perhaps so.
Yeah, you’re right—that’s what I was trying to say. It just didn’t come out right. I meant the in-your-face Moral Right Lunatics who want to abolish stem cell research and reintroduce prayer into schools and pass a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion, even in cases of rape. :roll: I’m not talking about people who were born into Christian families who have been going to church every Sunday their entire lives and leave $5 in the collection plate and say grace before dinner—that’s almost my entire family. My grandfather was a Presbyterian minister—my father was the only atheist in the family.
 
Levonian said:
Yeah, you’re right—that’s what I was trying to say. It just didn’t come out right. I meant the in-your-face Moral Right Lunatics who want to abolish stem cell research and reintroduce prayer into schools and pass a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion, even in cases of rape. :roll: I’m not talking about people who were born into Christian families who have been going to church every Sunday their entire lives and leave $5 in the collection plate and say grace before dinner—that’s almost my entire family. My grandfather was a Presbyterian minister—my father was the only atheist in the family.

I hear you, Lev, and I am fearful this return to the dark ages is by design. If enough people are deluded into believing some sort of impending Rapture, then why bother preserving our natural resources, why not cut down all our forests, dig up and burn all the coal in the ground, etc.? After all, the world is ending soon. These neo-christians are unwittingly perpeptuating evil.
 
Beowulf said:
I hear you, Lev, and I am fearful this return to the dark ages is by design. These neo-christians are unwittingly perpeptuating evil.

I know what you mean—these freaks scare the living shit out of me. And I mean that quite literally—they really do scare me. I really don’t think they could ever take over the world, but then again, you never know…
 
Levonian said:
Yeah, you’re right—that’s what I was trying to say. It just didn’t come out right. I meant the in-your-face Moral Right Lunatics who want to abolish stem cell research and reintroduce prayer into schools and pass a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion, even in cases of rape. :roll: I’m not talking about people who were born into Christian families who have been going to church every Sunday their entire lives and leave $5 in the collection plate and say grace before dinner—that’s almost my entire family. My grandfather was a Presbyterian minister—my father was the only atheist in the family.

Glad to see you don't put all Christians in one basket. :)

As for those issues, I tend to have a pretty weird set of views. With stem-cell research, I'm kind of ambivalent...I would like to see more research into the other sources of stem cells (such as from the placenta), because I have a feeling there's a lot of ignored potential there. If they can get that figured out, the whole moral debate about stem cells might become obsolete. For prayer...I don't think mandatory prayer in public schools is right--but students should not be stopped from praying on their own if they want to. And that constitutional amendment...that would be really bad if that passed. I'd like to see abortion become rarer, but the best way to do that is education to get people to make better choices.

You wouldn't believe the garbage I've taken for this...
 
Rose Immortal said:
Glad to see you don't put all Christians in one basket. :)
No, of course I wouldn’t lump all Christians into the category of fanatical Christian Coalition lunatics. That would be exactly the same as saying that all Muslims are terrorists. Only an idiot or a mentally disordered person would say that. Actually, I see no real difference between Pat Robertson and his followers and Osama Bin Laden and his followers—both groups are equally dangerous and equally detached from reality. Pat Robertson is to Christianity what Osama Bin Laden is to Islam. Robertson and Bin Laden are the voices of lunatic fringe minorities which are in absolutely no way representative of the philosophies that each claim to be the ultimate authorities on.
 
Beowulf said:
I hear you, Lev, and I am fearful this return to the dark ages is by design. If enough people are deluded into believing some sort of impending Rapture, then why bother preserving our natural resources, why not cut down all our forests, dig up and burn all the coal in the ground, etc.? After all, the world is ending soon. These neo-christians are unwittingly perpeptuating evil.
I believe in the Rapture but that doesn't mean I support cutting down all the forests, etc. All the preaching that I have heard, and reading that I have done, teaches that Christians should be good stewards of natural resources. Christians should live as though the Rapture could happen any second. That is, be spiritually ready, and be busy spreading the Gospel. Christians should also plan as though the Rapture could happen a thousand years from now. That is, manage resources and income carefully for the long term and future generations.
 
Rose Immortal said:
Why is it people assume there's an inherent conflict between science and religion?
The conflict is not between science and religion. God Himself gave us the brains for scientific thought, and He established the natural laws that science makes use of. Many of the great scientists and explorers of the past were fundamental Christians in faith and practice. Many great scientists and explorers of today are also fundamental Christians. No conflict.

The conflict comes from those who want to discredit the basic truths of the Bible.

As Dennis says:
"Since evolution falsifies the literal interpretation of creationism, those Christians who claim that the Bible is perfect and accurate and the Word of God are thus at a irreconcileable point. You can either accept creationism and the perfect accuracy of the Bible, or you can accept evolution and have to accept some leeway and possible errors in the Bible. There is no middle ground that lets everyone fully accept evolution while literally believing the Bible."

If the evolution supporter can find "errors" in the Bible then he can discredit original sin, the in-born sin nature of every person, the need for a Savior, the deity of Christ, heaven and hell, etc. That is the ultimate goal.

Evolution theory also puts man in the category of "just another animal". Of course, we don't hold animals responsible for their behaviors. We can't expect man to be monogamous because he is "just an animal." If a person is elderly or severely handicapped, they should be "put down" like an animal. Some people consider "pets" and "people" to be "equal".

If you doubt that last paragraph, I can link you to actual posts in AD where those beliefs have been expressed by our members.
 
Rose Immortal said:
...Example: given the lack of scientific understanding at the time of the creation story's being set into writing, it makes sense that the way of describing it would be different (less precise) than the way it would be described had God made His revelation today, in the 21st century. But the underlying principle, in my view, the point of telling the creation story in the Bible, is to illustrate the point that God painstakingly created what we see around us. For me, the more I see of science, the more I see of His meticulousness in the design process. :)
It's true that the early readers of God's Word didn't all have the same scientific knowledge with which we are blessed but God certainly had all the facts when He gave us His Word. There are no "mistakes" in God's account of creation.

If God gave His account of creation today, do you think it would be any more accepted by sceptics if He put it into a deeply detailed scientific format, full of formulas, charts, measurements, DNA diagrams, chemical breakdowns, step-by-step processes, spectrographs, and 3-D videos on a DVD?
 
Reba said:
...but God certainly had all the facts when He gave us His Word. There are no "mistakes" in God's account of creation.

If God gave His account of creation today, do you think it would be any more accepted by sceptics if He put it into a deeply detailed scientific format, full of formulas, charts, measurements, DNA diagrams, chemical breakdowns, step-by-step processes, spectrographs, and 3-D videos on a DVD?
*shaking my head*
What convoluted reasoning.
WHAT account???
If He gave the account today the ways you describe, it will just be a repeat performance, i.e., he will use men to put it into words, the way the Bible was made.
He didn't suddenly stop communicating with is 2000 years ago. Hasn't it occurred to you that He still speaks today, and science is one way?
 
Reba said:
The conflict is not between science and religion. God Himself gave us the brains for scientific thought, and He established the natural laws that science makes use of. Many of the great scientists and explorers of the past were fundamental Christians in faith and practice. Many great scientists and explorers of today are also fundamental Christians. No conflict.

The conflict comes from those who want to discredit the basic truths of the Bible.

That's certainly not my goal. The central ideas (which were God's whole point in giving us the Bible) are timeless.

However, you'd be amazed how many times I've been treated like an apostate or demon for thinking as I do--to be condemned by the people who are supposed to be your brothers and sisters in Christ is incredibly cruel. You'd think these people WANTED me to burn in Hell just so they could feel better about themselves. Excuse the bitterness...but that happened once in a Sunday school class where I was ganged up on so much that I came away with an impression that if Christian behavior was that bad, then I wanted to keep my distance from it.

While that's changed, people need to realize just how much of an impact their behavior has on others. These people thought that somehow they'd save my soul by belittling me. And that's the sad part.

Evolution theory also puts man in the category of "just another animal". Of course, we don't hold animals responsible for their behaviors. We can't expect man to be monogamous because he is "just an animal." If a person is elderly or severely handicapped, they should be "put down" like an animal. Some people consider "pets" and "people" to be "equal".

In my view, that's decontextualized science. Before the Enlightenment, there was far less of a division line between the physical, philosophical, and theological sciences, and I take a similar approach--I see all three as needing each other in order to make any sense.

I look at physical sciences if I want to understand the processes of how we were created, and the laws of the physical environment. I look to philosophy if I want to understand the logic by which things happen, and those laws. And I look to theology to understand the spirit and God. To me they're outgrowths of the same central discipline and have to be treated as belonging together. To divorce physical sciences from the rest, and worship them, is a mistake--but so too is divorcing theology from the rest and acting as if the physical environment doesn't exist and doesn't have a logic. They were all created by the same Creator, and in remembering that, nothing the other two sciences (philosophy and physical science) can show is a problem.

Reba said:
It's true that the early readers of God's Word didn't all have the same scientific knowledge with which we are blessed but God certainly had all the facts when He gave us His Word. There are no "mistakes" in God's account of creation.

If God gave His account of creation today, do you think it would be any more accepted by sceptics if He put it into a deeply detailed scientific format, full of formulas, charts, measurements, DNA diagrams, chemical breakdowns, step-by-step processes, spectrographs, and 3-D videos on a DVD?

Where did I deny that God had any less knowledge of the facts? I only suggest that He chose an "age-appropriate" way to explain things (if you consider the "age" of society), no different than when you tell your children about a difficult concept in very simplistic terms. As they get older, they learn more and more of the facts, and that's what I see us as doing...now that we're "older", we're learning more and more about the mechanisms God actually used to do what He did.

There would always be skeptics. But (on a lighter note) that DVD might not be a bad idea... ;)
 
Rose Immortal said:
...but students should not be stopped from praying on their own if they want to.

And they never have been stopped, ever. The only thing that has been stopped is prayer or religious practice organized by teachers, administrators, coaches, or other adults, which tends to make students feel forced or excluded, even if not specifically told they must participate. When I was in 1st Grade I voluntarily stopped wanting to say the Pledge of Alligiance (I still don't say it) and was harrassed and threatened. Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion - meaning that the State should not ever make any person feel obliged to worship in any one specific way. My guess is, none of these rabid Fundamentalists want their children to be asked to pray the Rosary in public schools, let alone be asked to pray in the manner of entirely different religions.
 
Reba said:
If the evolution supporter can find "errors" in the Bible then he can discredit original sin, the in-born sin nature of every person, the need for a Savior, the deity of Christ, heaven and hell, etc. That is the ultimate goal.

That isn't the goal of any serious scientist.

Reba said:
Evolution theory also puts man in the category of "just another animal". Of course, we don't hold animals responsible for their behaviors. We can't expect man to be monogamous because he is "just an animal." If a person is elderly or severely handicapped, they should be "put down" like an animal. Some people consider "pets" and "people" to be "equal".

Reba, you are exposing a lot of bunk you have been sold about what evolution is, and what those who recognize it feel and think.

1. It's not a theory - though some concepts of specific modes of evolution are. You should probably re-read the first part of this thread to see what evolution is and isn't. Scientists are essentially neutral on the diety issue because it isn't pertinent to the documentation of facts.
2. No one fails to recognize man's inherent biological differences from other animals - mental, physical, spiritual. Yet when we deny that which links us to other animals, we are just being silly and elitist. Understanding how animals behave and react helps us understand ourselves better, and if we are lucky, helps us overcome serious hurdles to survival.
3. Proponents of euthanasia do not believe people are throw-away, but rather recognize the extreme agony of chronic or terminal illness, and the inherent dignity of life. Let us not forget that it is extreme-right-wing Christians that brought us the Eugenics movement.
4. Seriously, besides people who are deranged, who REALLY believes pets are equal? Even extremists like members of PETA don't see pets and animals as the same as humans - just that it is a misuse of God's creatoin (if you will) to do harm to them.
 
Reba said:
If God gave His account of creation today, do you think it would be any more accepted by sceptics if He put it into a deeply detailed scientific format, full of formulas, charts, measurements, DNA diagrams, chemical breakdowns, step-by-step processes, spectrographs, and 3-D videos on a DVD?

Who are YOU to say that published studies and scientific findings AREN'T God's account? Is he no longer capable of inspiring word? Maybe you're the skeptic you're talking about here.
 
Rose Immortal said:
That's certainly not my goal.
I wasn't referring to you.


Where did I deny that God had any less knowledge of the facts?
Sorry, my statement wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that you denied God had the knowledge.

When God described creation in Genesis, He used terminology and literary structure that would be understandable to the people of that time but it was all still factual and accurate. When God said that the world and everything in it was created in six days, He meant "six days".

I only suggest that He chose an "age-appropriate" way to explain things (if you consider the "age" of society), no different than when you tell your children about a difficult concept in very simplistic terms.
Simpler maybe but still truthful. If creation actually took God six million years instead of six days, then His saying it took six days wouldn't be a "simpler" explaination--it would be a lie. God doesn't lie. If man actually gradually became human from animal (in a simplistic description), then God's description of Adam and Eve wouldn't be a simpler version--it would be a lie. Again, God does not lie.

There would always be skeptics.
Having doubts and sincerely digging deeper for truth is fine. Mocking people for their beliefs is something else.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. It would be nice though, to have disagreement without the "bashing". Again, I'm not referring to you or your posts. I'm referring to evolution supporters calling believers of creationism:

"these freaks"
someone who "will fly into a state of hysterical denial"
"Moral Right Lunatics"

Fortunately, I'm a "sticks 'n' stones" person, so I'm stickin' around. :)
 
MorriganTait said:
Who are YOU to say that published studies and scientific findings AREN'T God's account? Is he no longer capable of inspiring word? Maybe you're the skeptic you're talking about here.

Well, actually these scientific findings, many of them, aren't evolution-related, rather so. I do approve many of them but not the most evolution-related issues, definitely. You were little off-point on Reba's comments, really.

Also ask yourself: Which do you believe Evolution or the Creationism? Choose one. That's it.

Read Reba's post #27 (regarding to Dennis' comment) .. it's a clear double-edge answer.
 
Reba said:
Sorry, my statement wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that you denied God had the knowledge.

OK, sorry for the misunderstanding!

When God described creation in Genesis, He used terminology and literary structure that would be understandable to the people of that time but it was all still factual and accurate. When God said that the world and everything in it was created in six days, He meant "six days".

Simpler maybe but still truthful. If creation actually took God six million years instead of six days, then His saying it took six days wouldn't be a "simpler" explaination--it would be a lie. God doesn't lie. If man actually gradually became human from animal (in a simplistic description), then God's description of Adam and Eve wouldn't be a simpler version--it would be a lie. Again, God does not lie.

I'm not sure that people had any grasp on numbers of that size, or even the vocabulary for it. Heck, I'm not even sure they had the vocabulary for "zero" at the time the Bible was written down. So my thought is, it may not have been possible to explain "millions of years" in a way people could understand back then. There would have been similar issues in explaining a lot of concepts we're used to dealing with, like our planet's position in the solar system, electricity, and so on. The terminology just flat-out didn't exist.

You could suggest then, that God could've educated somebody to understand all of that terminology. It certainly would've been within His power. However, I'm not sure how well people would've received a teacher who then came back with knowledge SO disjointed from what people understood back then. Look at the reception Moses and other prophets got at times, even though they still spoke in terms that fit their times. I think the main points would've gotten lost in the confusion and it may well have been detrimental to the furthering of faith and belief. Hence, opting for something that got the main points across--that God is responsible for every aspect of Creation we see around us, that He did it painstakingly and not randomly, that He did it lovingly, and that He gave humans a kind of soul that was intended to be a small reflection of His own (yeah, we've since distorted that reflection, but I'm talking about the part before the fall).

About the evolution of animals, I don't see why God needed to describe all of the intermediate steps He took in His creation and shaping of mankind. The big point comes across: that it was a well thought-out process that he did very carefully, not something He just threw together like an Andrew Pollock painting--which is an important point to make considering that some people now allege everything was up to random chance.

The other main point I get from the Creation story is that God formed our bodies out of the same natural materials as everything else--but then distinguished us from the animals when He gave us souls (His breath of life into us). I will never doubt God's involvement in even the finest details of the creation process, and honestly, the more I learn about the science involved, the more impressed I am with the degree of control He had to have exercised to get things to come out as they did. :)

Having doubts and sincerely digging deeper for truth is fine. Mocking people for their beliefs is something else.

I'm glad you make that clear.

Along similar lines, those Christians who view things differently (and I am Christian even if I see differently than a fundamentalist would) need to be treated respectfully and not in a condemning manner.
 
web730 said:
Well, actually these scientific findings, many of them, aren't evolution-related, rather so.
I am specifically referring to those which relate directly to the evolution question.
web730 said:
I do approve many of them .
Well, if YOU approve, that's all I need to know. Can you tell me what your qualifications are again? I forgot. Thanks.
web730 said:
You were little off-point on Reba's comments, really.
Just because you didn't understand my point doesn't mean I was off-point.

web730 said:
Also ask yourself: Which do you believe Evolution or the Creationism? Choose one. That's it.
"Belief" is an action of faith. Evolution does not "ask" to be "believed" - it just is. Recognizing that we have observed evolution in our lifetimes and have clear evidence of it in the past does not change what I believe about having a loving creator that set processes into motion. The Bible is so clearly text not meant to be accepted as literal, that it does not require me to abandon observable reality to grasp it's message. By insistence upon it being literal, we rob it of it's beauty, and make it much more confusing than it was ever intended to be. You cannot tell me that there are actual doors in the firmament, and a mustard seed is actually the smallest seed of all creation. These texts are so totally metaphoric that it makes me wonder how well reading skills are being taught in our schools that fewer and fewer people each year are able to understand metaphor as a literary form. As to whther one can have coexisting knowledge of evolution and belief in a creator, see below from the original posts in this thread. (Did you read them, by the way? They were kind of the whole point of the thread - to give each of us a common vocabulary from which to thoughtfully discuss this issue.)

26. Does not deny (a) God(s),

There is no reason to "believe" that God was not a guiding force behind evolution. While it does contradict some specific interpretations of God, especially ones requiring a literal interpretation of Genesis 1, few people have this narrow of a view of God.

There are many people who "believe" in the existence of God and in evolution. Common descent could then describe the process used by God.

But more fundamentally, it is fallacious to utilize the terms "belief" and "believe" in natural science. Belief requires faith. Faith is accepting that which is unevidenced or unevidencable, typically without question. These concepts are totally alien and inimical to the mode, methods and machinations of science and the scientific method. Certainly, scientists may 'believe' and hold beliefs; but when they speak of them, in whatever context, they are speaking of a personal prejudice (yes, remember that they are also human; and therefore just as subject to human foibles as any other); they are not speaking of science.

As far as science is concerned, it cares not one whit what you believe, but cares infinitely more about what you think. Anyone can have and hold beliefs; although it is vastly more difficult, but infinitely more rewarding, to have thoughts.

27. And finally: Falsifying evolution does not 'prove' Creation.

This is known as the "False Dilemma"; inasmuch as that this argument (again, tremendously fallacious) claims that there are only two possible explanations for a certain circumstance, in this case the diversity of life on Earth; that is evolution or special creation. Some maintain that if evolution is shown to be in error (this itself is an erroneous supposition, for evolution is an observed fact; although theories of evolution could be shown to be erroneous and therefore would require re-analysis and possible abandonment of that particular theory of evolution, as was done with Lamarkianism), that this would automatically prove creationism. I think that if the gentle reader has slogged though all this thusfar, we need not once again note the multiple errors of that conclusion.
 
MorriganTait,

To be clear that I know that the Creationism and the Evolutionism does NOT gel, really.

Yours were quite gray and bit vague for me to answer. So anybody, what do you think of her comments on her last post #39?
 
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