English lessons

[August]

hey everyone.

i'm an english tutor at a community college. i often see students with learning disabilities, and sometimes students with physical disabilities, but just recently i saw my first deaf tutee. i'd never really thought much of sign language, or considered how different it is from english, so i was surprised that her writing was so different from that of native english speakers.


i think my etiquette was fine; i was polite and was careful to always look at speak directly to her and tried to be helpful, but i'm afraid i didn't help her very much. the interpreter was 30 minutes late, and communicating very specific little details about english through signs was an enormous challenge i wasn't prepared for. and because of restrictions in what i'm allowed to do and a ludicrous time limit for each session, i doubt i even helped her at all. she explained how stressful college was, depending on interpreters that sometimes don't show and are often incompetent, teachers who don't have much patience, etc.

i think the best advice i gave was simply to read something (newspaper or magazine articles, books, etc) for a certain amount of time every day and immerse herself into the written language. afterward, i became curious about deafness and ASL and i've done a little research. i've learned the ASL alphabet, a few words and some things about its grammar of which i was completely ignorant. watching youtube videos showed me that signing is pretty cool and a beautiful language in a way that oral languages are not, and i've bought an introductory book to learn to communicate on at least a basic level. however, if a conclusion can be drawn from reading the comments on those videos and reading deaf forums, it's that english capabilities in the deaf range from incomprehensible gibberish to nearly complete fluency, with most somewhere in the middle. but even for the nearly fluent ones, there are still the occasional mistakes that would seem to the untrained eye to indicate that the author is stupid or uneducated.

if i see this student again i think i'll be able to help her a lot more, but i'm afraid she might have been put off english tutoring for good. has anyone been in a situation similar to mine or hers before? i would appreciate advice from both sides: those teaching/tutoring/helping the deaf, and deaf people who've had good or bad experiences with being tutored.

also, if anyone wants help with their english, i can try to answer any questions you have. if your teachers always give you back your papers with red marks and arrows and underlines and comments everywhere that you don't understand, or you want to check your writing and don't know where the problems are, feel free to type or copy and paste a sample and i'll see what i can do.

 

[VamPyroX]

It sounds like you did the best you could.

I do agree with you. I have tutored deaf students with their papers. It has gotten to a point where I've given up since they refused to improve.

That's one problem with ASL. It's considered a language of its own and some deaf students are so stubborn with their Deaf Pride that they refuse to change their habits because doing so would deny them of their existence in Deaf Culture.

At NTID (a deaf college at RIT), a lot of deaf students will show up unprepared. They will come in, sit down, and then plead for help from the tutor.

Tutor: "Hello, how can I help you today?"
Student: *hands tutor a handout given by teacher*
Tutor: "Okay, so... what do you need help with?"
Student: *pointing at handout* "That's my homework. What do I do?"
Tutor: "Umm... I'm here to help you with your writing. The question you're asking me is something you should be asking your teacher since I don't know what your teacher wants. All I can do is help you with what you've already written."
Student: "Jeez! Some tutor you are! You're supposed to help me with my homework!"

Yes, it can be frustrating. Your job is to help students with their writing. If they haven't done any writing, then there's no point in helping them since they need to do their part in order for you to do your part.

Just be glad that the student you're tutoring actually did her work and is allowing you to do your part.

One thing I could think of is that you could contact her teacher and ask that teacher if there's any restriction that you should follow due to the situation with ASL and English?

 

[August]

i don't have many restrictions in my job. i quite often have students that are unprepared or just have a hard time writing and coming up with ideas, so i help them brainstorm and outline their papers and develop a thesis.

the only things i can't do are proofread, write on people's papers or do any of their work for them. i've recently seen some students that admitted that they had their friends or parents write their papers or retype it and fix all their mistakes. then, when they have to do their own writing, it's so obvious to the teacher what's been happening all along, and the students haven't learned a thing.

there are no special rules or restrictions to follow in this case. she's in a low level english course, and passed the previous one with no problem because her teacher was nice and didn't care so much about proper grammar as long as she could understand her writing. she said her current teacher was not very nice or understanding about her situation. i told her that she should never expect any of her professors to bend over backwards or put her on some special grading curve because of her deafness. it would help for teachers to take a little extra time and make some accommodations here and there, but deaf students should learn to be independent and not to count on charity all the time. it may not be fair, but that's what it is. once she gets into the "college level" english classes, the teachers will not have any tolerance for students that have not mastered the basics, and if she doesn't get help now, she may get to english 101 and fail it over and over and over, which i've seen happen many times. ironically, she's fine with higher order issues. her writing was on-topic and well-developed and everything. i see so many students in her level of english classes that are doomed, because this late in the game it's impossible to basically learn how to think. all the fancy vocabulary in the world can't save you if you can't think critically.

she will likely have a lot of difficulty with simple stuff like putting adjectives in the right spot and remembering colloquialisms and irregular verbs, etc. i think what i may do next time is forget about going over the paper line by line and practice building simple sentences and comparing english and ASL grammar and work our way up one piece at a time, adding parts of speech and complex verb conjugation later as we go on.

 

[VamPyroX]

That's also the problem at NTID. Some teachers are too flexible and some teachers are too strict.

They should maintain a steady learning environment for their student to go through.

 

[August]

it's not just a problem at NTID or any other deaf school. it's a problem everywhere. for all students that struggle in school, inconsistent teachers are a nightmare. one semester will be a breeze because they got lucky with a lenient professor, the next will be too hard, either because they didn't really work themselves hard enough before, or they got one of those asshole prof's that are like "95% of you will fail this class, and i only give out 4 A's per semester". they'll take the class over with different professors until they get another one that goes easy, then they'll make it to the next round and repeat the whole process. before you know it they'll spend 6 or 7 years getting their AA.

 

[shel90]

Another AD member works at a college. She basically sees the same things as u do with both deaf and hearing students. I think u are doing a great job and by coming here on AD shows that u took the time and effort to understand this student's language to try to help her. Yea, I agree that there should be a line drawn to how much u can do for her. She needs to immerse herself into written English by reading and writing. That was what helped me growing up as a profoundly deaf person without any visual cues.

 

[August]

thanks for the reply, shel. you said immersing yourself in reading helped you, but could you explain a little more how you built your english skills? i try to use various tutoring strategies, but this was the hardest tutoring session i've ever had.

do you have any suggestions for practical skills? when you're first improving your english, what are the best tools to use? this girl said she has picture dictionaries but that english dictionaries and thesauruses are hard for her. and i can completely understand that. dictionaries often define obscure words with other obscure and technical words that can overwhelm someone with a small vocabulary.

i told her she should read newspapers for a few reasons:
-cheap
-easy access
-broken into many short, digestible sections
-on average, written at an 8th grade reading level

the power of immersion is amazing. my cousin in the Czech Republic learned to speak fluent english by watching cnn for about an hour a day for 3 or 4 years.

are there any books or other strategies that helped you?

 

[VamPyroX]

it's not just a problem at NTID or any other deaf school. it's a problem everywhere. for all students that struggle in school, inconsistent teachers are a nightmare. one semester will be a breeze because they got lucky with a lenient professor, the next will be too hard, either because they didn't really work themselves hard enough before, or they got one of those asshole prof's that are like "95% of you will fail this class, and i only give out 4 A's per semester". they'll take the class over with different professors until they get another one that goes easy, then they'll make it to the next round and repeat the whole process. before you know it they'll spend 6 or 7 years getting their AA.

That's how it is with some people I know who went to NTID. A lot of professors there grade highly on attendance and low on other stuff. So, students could easily pass these classes if they were to actually show up for class. Sadly, a lot of them are always out drinking or doing drugs. They end up skipping class and flunking out... but blame the teacher for secretly plotting to fail them intentionally. :roll:

I've only missed a couple classes while I was at RIT. It was because I overslept (we had a fire alarm one night and I turned of my alarm clock by accident cuz they both sounded the same) or because I had a bad back or bad ankle and couldn't walk. Of course, the classes I missed didn't really grade on attendance, so I had to work my ass off to ensure that I got good grades.

Some students complain that it's so hard to pass their classes. I always tell them... "Just do your homework and show up for class on time. If you can do those two things, then you will succeed!"

 

[August]

skipping class to get wasted, especially in a class that emphasizes attendance, is just lazy. in fact, it's a laziness so pure it could probably be bottled and sold for a premium in whole foods stores. Essence of Lazinesse (R).

$89.95/ 3.5 fl. oz.

 

[VamPyroX]

skipping class to get wasted, especially in a class that emphasizes attendance, is just lazy. in fact, it's a laziness so pure it could probably be bottled and sold for a premium in whole foods stores. Essence of Lazinesse (R).

$89.95/ 3.5 fl. oz.

That's a good way of saying it. Heh!

If only I could actually collect laziness, bottle it all up, and sell it... it would be a hot seller among college students!

 

[August]

would be?

IT ALREADY IS!

 

[Aleser]

One thing that may help is a children's dictionary. They don't require the same genius efforts in deconvolution that more formal dictionaries do. Captioned TV that is pre-recorded, NOT NEWS, is also easy to go along with- especially when watching shows that use more formal and educated language. Reading books also helps! Before I lost most of my remaining sight, I used to go to the library all the time. They have a full section of books that are easy readers for those still learning English. Most libraries have a specific teens/young adult section, which also includes more or less age-appropriate books that sometimes have simple English, sometimes don't- talking to a librarian can produce many helpful suggestions.

If she can get the school to dole out for it, a captioner can be helpful in an English course, as it's English -> English instead of English -> ASL. This would not only make it easier to access that one single course, but also help her English in general.

BTW: I have to correct you. Deaf people who sign can also be completely fluent non-signed languages. I'm a fluent speaker and reader of three.

 

[August]

good suggestions. i'll check with the ESL study center and see if they have any children's dictionaries we could borrow and i will have a closer look around the library for this kind of stuff.

the other day i watched some news with captions and i quickly saw the problems with it. typing a live broadcast is slow and inaccurate. there's a 10 second delay and the words rarely sync with the image or story of the moment. typos are frequent and words are often left out. now i'm watching a show on national geographic. the captions are spot-on and there's no delay; in fact the captions are about 2 seconds ahead of the image.

also, what is a captioner? my guess is it's some kind of keyboard/ screen setup or linked laptops where somebody simply types, rather than signs, what is said, for the deaf party to read. am i wrong? this sounds like a viable alternative to a traditional interpreter, especially for an english class. i've been in a class with a deaf person before. it was 3 hours long and there were usually 2 interpreters. they switched every 45 minutes or so. i could tell they were tired. once, no one showed up and the poor guy just sat there for 3 hours reading his book. typing is much easier, and anyone who can type can do it. if an interpreter can't come, just ask, "can anyone type for him/her today?" no one would say no.

btw, i only meant to say that from what i've observed so far, i haven't seen any deaf people who were totally fluent in english. but congratulations, knowing 4 languages is a hell of a thing. which others do you know?

 

[Aleser]

]good suggestions. i'll check with the ESL study center and see if they have any children's dictionaries we could borrow and i will have a closer look around the library for this kind of stuff.

Good luck with that.


the other day i watched some news with captions and i quickly saw the problems with it. typing a live broadcast is slow and inaccurate. there's a 10 second delay and the words rarely sync with the image or story of the moment. typos are frequent and words are often left out. now i'm watching a show on national geographic. the captions are spot-on and there's no delay; in fact the captions are about 2 seconds ahead of the image.

Well, you must remember that news is generally live. Take your laptop in front of a TV, turn on the news complete with quick-talking reporters, and try and keep up while not making typos, especially with the use of countless names and areas you might not know how to spell. Real-time captioning is not an easy feat.



also, what is a captioner? my guess is it's some kind of keyboard/ screen setup or linked laptops where somebody simply types, rather than signs, what is said, for the deaf party to read. am i wrong? this sounds like a viable alternative to a traditional interpreter, especially for an english class. i've been in a class with a deaf person before. it was 3 hours long and there were usually 2 interpreters. they switched every 45 minutes or so. i could tell they were tired. once, no one showed up and the poor guy just sat there for 3 hours reading his book. typing is much easier, and anyone who can type can do it. if an interpreter can't come, just ask, "can anyone type for him/her today?" no one would say no.

Actually, no. If the student isn't fluent in English, they would still need an interpreter to entirely access the class- and many Deaf people who are fluent in English would want one anyways, for the sake of natural language. But, a captioner would be able to give the student access to a transcript of the course, as well as the option to choose between two modes of understanding spoken language while in the class.

Just like an interpreter, a captioner must be specially trained and capable of typing at incredible speeds- an average slowish-paced audiobook is recorded at about 150-160 wpm, which is more or less the speed many professors use, although some are a little excited and speak quickly. In the 'average' person, on the other hand, typing 60wpm is considered impressive. It would be incredibly tiring for the untrained student to attempt to caption for the deaf one- and you can be sure they'd learn nothing themselves, being too focused on failing efforts to keep up with the speaker.


btw, i only meant to say that from what i've observed so far, i haven't seen any deaf people who were totally fluent in english. but congratulations, knowing 4 languages is a hell of a thing. which others do you know?

English, Assyrian, and Arabic, the first two being my best. I know a few others to the extent of basic questions, but not enough to keep up a conversation. One of the hazards of being a Third Culture Kid- asking your English schoolmates the time in the completely wrong language.


Also, I forgot to suggest this in the first place, but in the US (if you're here, didn't pay attention) we have a described and captioned media program, which has entirely educational programs free of charge to deaf, hard of hearing, blind, and deafblind students. The site to register is at DCMP.org :: Home

 

[August]

]
Just like an interpreter, a captioner must be specially trained and capable of typing at incredible speeds- an average slowish-paced audiobook is recorded at about 150-160 wpm, which is more or less the speed many professors use, although some are a little excited and speak quickly. In the 'average' person, on the other hand, typing 60wpm is considered impressive. It would be incredibly tiring for the untrained student to attempt to caption for the deaf one- and you can be sure they'd learn nothing themselves, being too focused on failing efforts to keep up with the speaker.

touché.

 

[Rio]

i don't have many restrictions in my job. i quite often have students that are unprepared or just have a hard time writing and coming up with ideas, so i help them brainstorm and outline their papers and develop a thesis.

the only things i can't do are proofread, write on people's papers or do any of their work for them. i've recently seen some students that admitted that they had their friends or parents write their papers or retype it and fix all their mistakes. then, when they have to do their own writing, it's so obvious to the teacher what's been happening all along, and the students haven't learned a thing.

there are no special rules or restrictions to follow in this case. she's in a low level english course, and passed the previous one with no problem because her teacher was nice and didn't care so much about proper grammar as long as she could understand her writing. she said her current teacher was not very nice or understanding about her situation. i told her that she should never expect any of her professors to bend over backwards or put her on some special grading curve because of her deafness. it would help for teachers to take a little extra time and make some accommodations here and there, but deaf students should learn to be independent and not to count on charity all the time. it may not be fair, but that's what it is. once she gets into the "college level" english classes, the teachers will not have any tolerance for students that have not mastered the basics, and if she doesn't get help now, she may get to english 101 and fail it over and over and over, which i've seen happen many times. ironically, she's fine with higher order issues. her writing was on-topic and well-developed and everything. i see so many students in her level of english classes that are doomed, because this late in the game it's impossible to basically learn how to think. all the fancy vocabulary in the world can't save you if you can't think critically.

she will likely have a lot of difficulty with simple stuff like putting adjectives in the right spot and remembering colloquialisms and irregular verbs, etc. i think what i may do next time is forget about going over the paper line by line and practice building simple sentences and comparing english and ASL grammar and work our way up one piece at a time, adding parts of speech and complex verb conjugation later as we go on.

I was interpreting for a basic English course, the instructor encouraged the student not to brainstorm it will only cause confusion. What the intstructor suggest was an outline. That way , the outline can help keep the thoughts in order and not so jumpy from one idea to another other. This will apply to writing papers such as essays and paragraphs.
I hope this little tip will you out in your tutoring

 

[shel90]

thanks for the reply, shel. you said immersing yourself in reading helped you, but could you explain a little more how you built your english skills? i try to use various tutoring strategies, but this was the hardest tutoring session i've ever had.

do you have any suggestions for practical skills? when you're first improving your english, what are the best tools to use? this girl said she has picture dictionaries but that english dictionaries and thesauruses are hard for her. and i can completely understand that. dictionaries often define obscure words with other obscure and technical words that can overwhelm someone with a small vocabulary.

i told her she should read newspapers for a few reasons:
-cheap
-easy access
-broken into many short, digestible sections
-on average, written at an 8th grade reading level

the power of immersion is amazing. my cousin in the Czech Republic learned to speak fluent english by watching cnn for about an hour a day for 3 or 4 years.

are there any books or other strategies that helped you?

I really wish I could remember everything. My mom started reading to me when I was a baby despite the doctor's advices of not bothering to read because I wouldnt be able to hear her. She ignored them and continued so I guess by seeing that alone, I saw the value in books. Once I started learning how to read, I remember not being able to get enough of it. I read EVERYTHING...back of cereal boxes, nasty words on the bathroom walls, comics, and easy books. From then on, as I got older, my literacy skills got stronger. It also helped that I loved to write stories as a kid. Not everyone loves to read and write but for deaf people that is a double disadvantage if they dont enjoy it. If that girl really wants to get an education, she is going to need to start enjoying reading and writing. I would suggest she starts writing journals daily just for fun and then you can sit with her to modify her grammar so she can learn what her common mistakes are.


I am sure there were some reading strategies that my teachers taught me in school but I cant remember due to being so young at the time.

 

[August]

I really wish I could remember everything. My mom started reading to me when I was a baby despite the doctor's advices of not bothering to read because I wouldnt be able to hear her. She ignored them and continued so I guess by seeing that alone, I saw the value in books. Once I started learning how to read, I remember not being able to get enough of it. I read EVERYTHING...back of cereal boxes, nasty words on the bathroom walls, comics, and easy books. From then on, as I got older, my literacy skills got stronger. It also helped that I loved to write stories as a kid. Not everyone loves to read and write but for deaf people that is a double disadvantage if they dont enjoy it. If that girl really wants to get an education, she is going to need to start enjoying reading and writing. I would suggest she starts writing journals daily just for fun and then you can sit with her to modify her grammar so she can learn what her common mistakes are.


I am sure there were some reading strategies that my teachers taught me in school but I cant remember due to being so young at the time.

not those...

ANYTHING BUT THOSE!!!

journals. good idea. perhaps i should review parts of speech, then have her read a paragraph from a book and try to identify them.

 

[Buffalo]

I would love to see the language problems nipped in the first grade not in college. I recalled reading online about a person who teaches deaf kids and she admitted that she let their mistakes slide. I really don't like that person as she did no favor for the deaf kids.

Yes, the love of reading books could help their English in a big way. Their families gotta buy the kids books and be a role model by reading books as well. Many of my family members (especially the females) love to read and so do I.

 

[VamPyroX]

I was interpreting for a basic English course, the instructor encouraged the student not to brainstorm it will only cause confusion. What the intstructor suggest was an outline. That way , the outline can help keep the thoughts in order and not so jumpy from one idea to another other. This will apply to writing papers such as essays and paragraphs.
I hope this little tip will you out in your tutoring

The brainstorm method is usually good for papers where you have to do your own ideas and research.

If it's a paper where you have to analyze something already given to you such as a book or a topic already discussed in class, then brainstorming can only make things more confusing.