Dude...

[StSapphire]

He can quote Harry Potter.....what do you think?

@StS j/k

Hey! This... wasn't even Harry Potter. ...it was a fanfic. :roll: Damnit, I'm not helping my case here, am I?

(Side note - joking aside, that's a fucking awesome story that I recommend to everyone. Far better than the original.)

Well now.... Actually I don't care much for e-begging. That part I don't like.... But I don't have a problem with "therapy fund" on the button. I clearly see the joke.

In short. I have a problem with the button....but not the words on it.

I don't even really see it as e-begging. The dad likely didn't expect to get nearly the attention he did from it, and after it became noticed, decided to capitalize on the attention and get some spare cash out of it to make up for bringing in more attention than originally intended.

There is a reason that people who are humiliated resort to self deprecating humor.

Nailed it.

"If he says he's cool with it, then he hated it. If he says he hated it, then he hated it. If he doesn't respond, then he hated it."

Now do you understand the quote I included? "The system doesn't know how to stop, it doesn't believe the parents or the children when they say nothing happened! Don't you dare threaten my family with that! I won't let you destroy my home!"

If this young man needs assistance going to college, his father would have done well to begin his college fund much earlier than at the age of 16. And the young man would benefit more from a father that encourages his academic achievements in order to win scholarships than out at the curb acting like an adolescent. Apply for a Pell Grant, for God's sake. Don't humiliate your child in order to make up for the fact that you failed to plan for their college education.

More ignorance. The kid is going for his Eagle Scout, he's in the school band (which my girlfriend insists is a positive, rather than negative, trait), and apparently is a 4.0 honor roll student. You don't think the kid's gonna get scholarships out the ass anyways? But don't let your preconceptions of the situation be dirtied by mere facts.

Shhhh !! No more fuel to the very silly fire. Otherwise this goes on for 10 more pages with pointless posts, remember

Hey, I don't normally get to argue with jillio, she's usually on my side! Besides, I don't consider it pointless, I still think it's possible to change someone's mind.

This mental health professional is basing her opinion on years and years of research into the negative effects of humiliating verbal abuse directed at children by parents. In other words, informed opinion based on the information provided.

But again, this is where sampling bias comes from. You work with and are regularly used to seeing those who have been damaged by abuse, so it's easier for your to recognize the patterns that indicate "abuse". You deal with those who already recognize that they've got problems, and you know and can recognize the "warning signs" in those who have yet to be diagnosed. The problem is with false positives. Humans are excellent at finding patterns. Our brains are designed for it, and we rock at it. In fact, we rock so much that we can even find patterns where they don't exist.

However, we don't need to guess about this. Let's make a diagram!

1) Out of every news story you read, what percentage would you think have been abused? (This is likely roughly the same percentage of the general population, unless you think someone who's been in a news story is more or less likely to have been abused for whatever reasons.)

2) Of the people in news stories who have been abused, what percentage would you estimate that you could make a positive diagnosis of abuse of? (So if 50 people have been abused in news stories you read, how many would you be able to pick out and say "Yep, he/she was abused.")

3) Out of the people in news stories who have not been abused, what percentage would you estimate that you would diagnose as having been abused who actually weren't?

Keep in mind that we're only talking about people where the entirety of your family history and client interviews came from a single news story?

I ask these three questions because there's a very specific mathematical formula that can be used from these three priors to determine the likelihood of any given positive diagnosis made in these circumstances actually being indicative of abuse. And I'd be willing to bet that it's far lower than you're willing to admit.

 

[jillio]

Hey! This... wasn't even Harry Potter. ...it was a fanfic. :roll: Damnit, I'm not helping my case here, am I?

(Side note - joking aside, that's a fucking awesome story that I recommend to everyone. Far better than the original.)



I don't even really see it as e-begging. The dad likely didn't expect to get nearly the attention he did from it, and after it became noticed, decided to capitalize on the attention and get some spare cash out of it to make up for bringing in more attention than originally intended.



Nailed it.

"If he says he's cool with it, then he hated it. If he says he hated it, then he hated it. If he doesn't respond, then he hated it."

Now do you understand the quote I included? "The system doesn't know how to stop, it doesn't believe the parents or the children when they say nothing happened! Don't you dare threaten my family with that! I won't let you destroy my home!"



More ignorance. The kid is going for his Eagle Scout, he's in the school band (which my girlfriend insists is a positive, rather than negative, trait), and apparently is a 4.0 honor roll student. You don't think the kid's gonna get scholarships out the ass anyways? But don't let your preconceptions of the situation be dirtied by mere facts.



Hey, I don't normally get to argue with jillio, she's usually on my side! Besides, I don't consider it pointless, I still think it's possible to change someone's mind.



But again, this is where sampling bias comes from. You work with and are regularly used to seeing those who have been damaged by abuse, so it's easier for your to recognize the patterns that indicate "abuse". You deal with those who already recognize that they've got problems, and you know and can recognize the "warning signs" in those who have yet to be diagnosed. The problem is with false positives. Humans are excellent at finding patterns. Our brains are designed for it, and we rock at it. In fact, we rock so much that we can even find patterns where they don't exist.

However, we don't need to guess about this. Let's make a diagram!

1) Out of every news story you read, what percentage would you think have been abused? (This is likely roughly the same percentage of the general population, unless you think someone who's been in a news story is more or less likely to have been abused for whatever reasons.)

2) Of the people in news stories who have been abused, what percentage would you estimate that you could make a positive diagnosis of abuse of? (So if 50 people have been abused in news stories you read, how many would you be able to pick out and say "Yep, he/she was abused.")

3) Out of the people in news stories who have not been abused, what percentage would you estimate that you would diagnose as having been abused who actually weren't?

Keep in mind that we're only talking about people where the entirety of your family history and client interviews came from a single news story?

I ask these three questions because there's a very specific mathematical formula that can be used from these three priors to determine the likelihood of any given positive diagnosis made in these circumstances actually being indicative of abuse. And I'd be willing to bet that it's far lower than you're willing to admit.

Projection on your part. I simply said there is a reason that people who are humiliated resort to self deprecating humor. The rest is simply a projection of what you want me to say on what I actually said. Shall we discuss bias again?

People are not numbers. The sooner that you stop believing they can be manipulated as such, the sooner you will be able to look at situations with empathy.

If that is the case, why the father's claim for college expenses? I see a lot of ignorance around here, but it is coming from those that endorse such practices as being acceptable.

The only mind you have the power to change is your own.

 

[TXgolfer]

Projection on your part. I simply said there is a reason that people who are humiliated resort to self deprecating humor. The rest is simply a projection of what you want me to say on what I actually said. Shall we discuss bias again?

People are not numbers. The sooner that you stop believing they can be manipulated as such, the sooner you will be able to look at situations with empathy.

If that is the case, why the father's claim for college expenses? I see a lot of ignorance around here, but it is coming from those that endorse such practices as being acceptable.

The only mind you have the power to change is your own.

The bold should be in quotes.... But you knew that

 

[jillio]

The bold should be in quotes.... But you knew that

I don't use quotes for my own words.

 

[StSapphire]

Projection on your part. I simply said there is a reason that people who are humiliated resort to self deprecating humor. The rest is simply a projection of what you want me to say on what I actually said. Shall we discuss bias again?

Oh come on now, at least make an effort to point out what you're referring to.

Also, our President has often used forms of self-deprecating humor, was he humiliated and abused, too? (This is regardless of the fact that I've not even seen an example of self-deprecating humor, unless you're talking about the "therapy" quip on the blog.)

People are not numbers. The sooner that you stop believing they can be manipulated as such, the sooner you will be able to look at situations with empathy.

I really don't find it empathic to lob accusations of child abuse at a family that you don't know, haven't personally met or interviewed, and only know of via the means of reading a news story. Sorry, no. Not empathic at all.

As for the numbers, though, I take it you're unwilling to submit yourself to the Bayesian Conspiracy? It's a shame. Here I thought you were a fan of science, since you referenced the multiple studies and the like that refer to abuse. Certainly you wouldn't trust a study that said "People aren't numbers, so don't expect this study to be supported by facts."

If that is the case, why the father's claim for college expenses? I see a lot of ignorance around here, but it is coming from those that endorse such practices as being acceptable.

What're you even talking about? The donations button on their website? I already mentioned that, honestly. At least read what I said. (And as a side note, I received 4 scholarships and my parents had saved up for college since I was about 6 or 7 - if my parents managed to stash aside a couple extra bucks because they pulled a stunt that got TV coverage, I'd be thrilled, because I still came out of college with 5-digit loans.) If you're going to respond, please at least do me the favor of reading what I've written. I know you're smart and can easily read what I write and you can understand my writing very well because you're familiar with my writing style. It's insulting, otherwise.

The only mind you have the power to change is your own.

Pft, I don't believe that for a minute. That's only true when you're talking to someone who's so closed-minded that they refuse to even listen to what you have to say.

 

[KristinaB]

While I can see how this could be very embarrassing for this high school student, I can also see the good memories that could come of it. Not sure how many of you had to deal with the embarrassment of one parent or the other kissing you goodbye at the bus stop or at the drop off area of the school. It's okay when you are little, but geez, it can be embarrassing when you get to be 10 or so. Some of the students were interviewed for the school newspaper back in Missouri. They were asked if it would be embarrassing for them to have a parent do that. Shockingly, most said it would initially be embarrassing, but it would be worth it. Most said that they wished their parents had thought of something like that. Also, quite a few of the students will never get that opportunity as their father or mother is in Iraq or Afghanistan right now or has died over there. In my case, I walked to the bus stop with my brothers so no issues there. I had to put up with the cute little letters my mother or father included in with my bag lunch. While it was embarrassing at the time, at 47, I still have all of those little letters. It makes me feel closer to my father who I miss deeply since he died in 1991.

 

[jillio]

Oh come on now, at least make an effort to point out what you're referring to.

Also, our President has often used forms of self-deprecating humor, was he humiliated and abused, too? (This is regardless of the fact that I've not even seen an example of self-deprecating humor, unless you're talking about the "therapy" quip on the blog.)



I really don't find it empathic to lob accusations of child abuse at a family that you don't know, haven't personally met or interviewed, and only know of via the means of reading a news story. Sorry, no. Not empathic at all.

As for the numbers, though, I take it you're unwilling to submit yourself to the Bayesian Conspiracy? It's a shame. Here I thought you were a fan of science, since you referenced the multiple studies and the like that refer to abuse. Certainly you wouldn't trust a study that said "People aren't numbers, so don't expect this study to be supported by facts."



What're you even talking about? The donations button on their website? I already mentioned that, honestly. At least read what I said. (And as a side note, I received 4 scholarships and my parents had saved up for college since I was about 6 or 7 - if my parents managed to stash aside a couple extra bucks because they pulled a stunt that got TV coverage, I'd be thrilled, because I still came out of college with 5-digit loans.) If you're going to respond, please at least do me the favor of reading what I've written. I know you're smart and can easily read what I write and you can understand my writing very well because you're familiar with my writing style. It's insulting, otherwise.



Pft, I don't believe that for a minute. That's only true when you're talking to someone who's so closed-minded that they refuse to even listen to what you have to say.

Just keep on believing that. Once you have managed to beat your head into a bloody pulp by running into that wall over and over, you will see it differently.:P

 

[kokonut]

Hmm...

.....trauma queen?

 

[StSapphire]

Just keep on believing that. Once you have managed to beat your head into a bloody pulp by running into that wall over and over, you will see it differently.:P

All it takes to know differently is one, and I've changed the opinions of others via discussion and debate several times before, and I likewise have had my own mind changed via debate and discussion several times before. If you're incapable of being swayed by valid arguments, and you think all others are equally incapable, then why would you ever even bother to communicate with anyone?

-----

On the note related to the original topic, I've noticed several people saying that the parent should stop something he enjoys doing implied because his son's peers disapprove (or think it stupid or dorky or whatnot). Do you not see any flaws in this method of thinking, either?

The implication with this is "if you're abnormal in any way, and you have children, you're abusive if you don't shield them from this." Tyranny of the majority, anyone? If I ever have children, the absolute last thing I would want them to use as a basis for their actions would be "is this embarrassing or not?"

 

[Beowulf]

All it takes to know differently is one, and I've changed the opinions of others via discussion and debate several times before, and I likewise have had my own mind changed via debate and discussion several times before. If you're incapable of being swayed by valid arguments, and you think all others are equally incapable, then why would you ever even bother to communicate with anyone?

-----

On the note related to the original topic, I've noticed several people saying that the parent should stop something he enjoys doing implied because his son's peers disapprove (or think it stupid or dorky or whatnot). Do you not see any flaws in this method of thinking, either?

The implication with this is "if you're abnormal in any way, and you have children, you're abusive if you don't shield them from this." Tyranny of the majority, anyone? If I ever have children, the absolute last thing I would want them to use as a basis for their actions would be "is this embarrassing or not?"

But you didn't change their minds. They did that themselves.

 

[jillio]

All it takes to know differently is one, and I've changed the opinions of others via discussion and debate several times before, and I likewise have had my own mind changed via debate and discussion several times before. If you're incapable of being swayed by valid arguments, and you think all others are equally incapable, then why would you ever even bother to communicate with anyone?

-----

On the note related to the original topic, I've noticed several people saying that the parent should stop something he enjoys doing implied because his son's peers disapprove (or think it stupid or dorky or whatnot). Do you not see any flaws in this method of thinking, either?

The implication with this is "if you're abnormal in any way, and you have children, you're abusive if you don't shield them from this." Tyranny of the majority, anyone? If I ever have children, the absolute last thing I would want them to use as a basis for their actions would be "is this embarrassing or not?"

Mmmmkay.

 

[StSapphire]

But you didn't change their minds. They did that themselves.

Using information which I provided. Beyond that, it's just quibbling over the words used to describe the same situation.

 

[StSapphire]

Mmmmkay.

You suck.

:P

 

[Beowulf]

Using information which I provided. Beyond that, it's just quibbling over the words used to describe the same situation.

Awww, don't be such a hoarder of raw power. Do share.

 

[kokonut]

All it takes to know differently is one, and I've changed the opinions of others via discussion and debate several times before, and I likewise have had my own mind changed via debate and discussion several times before. If you're incapable of being swayed by valid arguments, and you think all others are equally incapable, then why would you ever even bother to communicate with anyone?

-----

On the note related to the original topic, I've noticed several people saying that the parent should stop something he enjoys doing implied because his son's peers disapprove (or think it stupid or dorky or whatnot). Do you not see any flaws in this method of thinking, either?

The implication with this is "if you're abnormal in any way, and you have children, you're abusive if you don't shield them from this." Tyranny of the majority, anyone? If I ever have children, the absolute last thing I would want them to use as a basis for their actions would be "is this embarrassing or not?"

For some reason that reminds me of the Young Frankenstein movie when Igor supplied Mr. Frankenstein a brain and said it was named "Abby Normal."

 

[saywhatkid]

On the note related to the original topic, I've noticed several people saying that the parent should stop something he enjoys doing implied because his son's peers disapprove (or think it stupid or dorky or whatnot). Do you not see any flaws in this method of thinking, either?

I felt the cold stare of chastizing eyes when I stated my own experiences with being embarrassed as a youth. So it goes.

 

[jillio]

But you didn't change their minds. They did that themselves.

Exactly. Providing information is not changing another's mind.

 

[StSapphire]

Awww, don't be such a hoarder of raw power. Do share.

Haha, I'm not hoarding it. Hell, at least one other poster right here on AllDeaf has already dramatically affected my life, however unintentionally it may have been.

Admittedly, you or jillio are a lot less likely to change my mind, but that's because we tend to agree on a majority of topics discussed here already. :P

 

[jillio]

Using information which I provided. Beyond that, it's just quibbling over the words used to describe the same situation.

You are greatly overestimating your own power. The individual could have just as easily obtained the information from another source, or just as easily not been impacted by the information at all.

No, it is not a matter of semantics in this case. You change no one's mind but your own.

 

[shel90]

I will have to read this thread from the start to the last post but right now, I am too distracted with softball on TV. It looks like an interesting debate here.