doctors cannot ask about guns

[Jiro]

Why wouldn't they be? Do you think that NJ docotrs and TX doctors receive different educations? Chances are neither one grew up or was educated in the state they practice? You are again bringing in irrelevent issues.

You cited a national publication of the American Medical Association. Both NJ doctors and TX doctors belong and read the same publication.

Again, give it up for tonight. You are not thinking clearly.

Sure they both read same publications but they both have different opinions/stances. That's why mother in OP had a bad experience with first doctor.

 

[StSapphire]

Wow, I go to ASL class and miss out on all the fun!

Time to play catchup...

Company A can easily circumvent around it by simply buying or contracting with Company B that has personal data. This has been going on since capitalism. What do you think how and why more and more ads are much more targeted than before?

There are virtually many different ways to circumvent it. It's comical and easy. So a mark in medical file regarding gun possession is a big no-no to me.

HIPAA laws specifically prevent medical information from ever being released without the patient's consent. Even to the insurance companies. So, while the concern over corporations trying to use your data to fuck you over is something that I'm sympathetic towards, your medical history is one of the few places where you actually have some form of control over who has access to the information.

that's not how I see it. A doctor does not just hand you a pamphlet and walk away like annoying guy with pocketful of go-go girl cards in Las Vegas. See examples in Post #610. You can just do it differently to achieve same result while abiding by laws.

Amsuingly, I only just this past weekend found out about those cards... from my grandpa, lol. Never went on the strip during my night in Vegas last summer, so I didn't come across that.

And a few points on this. Nothing is preventing a doctor from doing this already. Neither jillio nor I, nor anyone else (as far as I can tell) is suggesting that a doctor shouldn't be allowed to do as you're suggesting. We simply are opposing you restricting them to only being allowed to bring up the topic in that manner.

We both know gun has always been a hot topic for decades.

Oh, I thought you were asking why people in this specific thread were focusing on guns. I can't answer for generic people in the country who I don't know. People are crazy.

and how many times did I tell you that they do once I signed a consent form?

Not the entirety of it. Only the "mental health records" section of that.

Seems to me, that if a parent has a gun in the house, then there should be some way to secure the gun from the child. I know my father used to keep a gun in our house and we always kept the gun (before safety locks) locked in one chest and the bullets in another chest in a different room. That was mainly due to my father's and my brother's explosive tempers. After my father died, we took the 357 magnum and ammunition to the police station for a weapons drop off. In my house, guns are not allowed for any reason. My son never even had any toy guns or water guns. Currently, son prefers knives and swords. He wants to build a collection. He has time as he will be 16 next week.

Yikes. Enroll that boy in a fencing class or some other form of swordfighting class so that he doesn't hurt himself. Guns themselves aren't any more dangerous than a sword as long as the person handling them has been properly taught how to safely handle them, and nobody else ever does.

oh boy...... here I go again.... explaining again.... we're going to do this one step at a time.

when I apply for firearm license or for everytime I apply for handgun permit... I have to fill this out - http://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/sp-066.pdf

Take a look at that form and then get back to me.

Huh, here I was taking you at your word that they actually had full access to your entire medical history and medical records. Turns out... not so much. That form specifically only authorizes the release of records indicating if you were admitted to/committed to/treated at a hospital/mental institution/sanitarium for a mental disorder. Nothing else, whatsoever. So unless you were sent to a psych ward for being crazy (or something similar, it's hyperbole jillio :P ), then this document will return to the police a grand total of zero documents.

1. You fail to understand the culture in NJ toward guns.
2. You fail to understand that NJ is doing everything it can to prevent law-abiding citizens from owning guns because police officers should suffice for them.
3. You fail to understand that a little note in a file is more than enough for Police Chief to deny me of gun rights.

and btw - easy as heck for you to get a permit? Good for you. and me? it's hard as heck to get a permit in here. and I had to fill out few more applications too.

1) No, I'm willing to take you at your word that they don't exactly look favorably in the first place upon people who want to own guns, despite your record of similar statements in this thread. The point is that that doesn't matter.
2) So get the laws changed?
3) And this is where you're wrong. The police chief isn't ever given your "file", he's given that specific form, filled out (or not). That's it. Nothing else. But even if he actually was granted your entire medical file, from birth to the current date - that still isn't an excuse!

The problem with your argument is that you're attacking a symptom, rather than the cause. If that's a problem, then you don't need to try and prevent your doctor from having a complete medical history on you. You need to change the laws or pass new laws to prevent the people handing out licenses from being overly restrictive. The problem isn't your doctor trying to be helpful, it's the police chief. Again, address the root of the problem to actually fix it.

why's that? Are you very familiar with NJ-NY Gun Laws then?

I've familiarized myself with them to the extent that you've educated us on them, so I have the same level of familiarity that you've backed your own arguments up with.

I think differently. I believe most of incidents occurred at heavily urbanized area where gun safety knowledge is poor. Many urbanized people are not sufficiently trained in guns.

that's just my logical assumption.

I'd agree with this. City people don't know a damn thing about gun safety, which is disappointing.

I made an assumption and she said that it was untrue. So can she prove me wrong?

that's not how it works. When someone says my assumption is wrong, one has to prove me wrong. Not other way around.

Er, what? No it's not. The person making assumptions has to prove them, not the other way around. If you start with an assumption (on anything, not just this in particular), you need to give a reason or back up why you made that assumption. Otherwise, it's equally valid for someone to just say "Well, I assume the exact opposite, and you're a dummy poo poo head", lol.

I'm having a great difficulty in understanding your position. You're ok with doctors asking them if they have guns and then discussing about gun safety. But you're not ok with mandatory purchase of gun vault?

You do realize that gun vault can prevent children from accessing guns? and that it's a more effective solution than a "talk"?

False dichotomy. jillio is saying that the increased safety from requiring gun vaults alone can be increased even further by also allowing for increased education. Which, you've said many times you also support. You just have some weird obsession over a very specific form of education and want that banned.

so is an attempt to educate parents about it! They are free to ignore what they learned from gun safety just as much as they are free to ignore speed limit!

You continue to crack me up to no end!

Yep. It's not a 100% solution. And that's okay. As long as it's at least somewhat helpful, and not harmful, then what is your problem with it? (See above before claiming it's harmful because you have a shitty chief of police - that's not the doctor's fault and the doctor doesn't need to be punished due to your cops being retarded).

"Tell Us, Not Ask Us"

s/Not/And\/Or

(If this doesn't make sense, lrn2regex)

**warning!!! this article may be deemed too ancient for readers**

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/278/13/1084.full.pdf

Nobody wants to get rid of gun vault laws. We just don't want that to be the only form of safety checks.

 

[Banjo]

Sure they both read same publications but they both have different opinions/stances. That's why mother in OP had a bad experience with first doctor.

What mother? The OP didn't mention anything about a mother.

 

[jillio]

Sure they both read same publications but they both have different opinions/stances. That's why mother in OP had a bad experience with first doctor.

There is no mother in the OP. Are you referring to the link Reba supplied? Or the doctor in Britain you tried to use as a source and failed. The link Reba supplied is one case out of how many pediatric visits are made in this country in a single day? And it was resolved in the best way for the patient and the doctor. The woman obviously did not have enough trust in the doctor to work with him as a team. Better she leave and find another doctor.

 

[Jiro]

There is no mother in the OP. Are you referring to the link Reba supplied? Or the doctor in Britain you tried to use as a source and failed. The link Reba supplied is one case out of how many pediatric visits are made in this country in a single day? And it was resolved in the best way for the patient and the doctor. The woman obviously did not have enough trust in the doctor to work with him as a team. Better she leave and find another doctor.

and how many kids were killed by guns in this country in a single day?

 

[Jiro]

What mother? The OP didn't mention anything about a mother.

for correction.

 

[StSapphire]

What I don't like is the doctor making a note and keeping a record of the person owning a gun.

If you don't like the idea of the government knowing you own a gun -- Think about the idea that people work in doctor's office who have no security clearance -- Think how secure the doctors records actually are -- Maybe the clean up guy's cousin wants a gun to off somebody --

No, I don't like that.

The government already knows who all owns guns. Firearms all have to be registered when you buy them. They have much easier access to the firearm registration database (which is owned and operated by the people who give licenses) than they ever would with a doctor's notes.

So you believe NJ doctors are as qualified as Texan doctors on gun subjects?

Generically? No, I'd stereotypically assume a doctor in Texas is far more likely to be knowledgeable on gun safety than in NJ. And yet Texas is the state where they were banned from being allowed to talk about it!

Chances are the note says something like this:

Discussed gun safety issues with Patient A's father today. Or even something as innocuous as
Discussed childhood safety issues with Patient A's father today."

My notes, in reference to something like this would read: Patient expressed suicidal (homicidal) ideation and was questioned regarding plan and access to means. Patient indicated means were readily available.

If I need to note something more than that, then I put it in my personal notes that cannot be accessed by anyone, even under court order. Only my treatment notes can be accessed with a court order if they pertain directly to a legal case in process. My personal notes are mine, and are even kept in a separate location.

And yes, I do not even use a name. I refer to the individual as "patient" or "client" depending upon the location of the session.

Huh, interesting. I did not know that. TIL.

 

[jillio]

and how many kids were killed by guns in this country in a single day?

2911 in a single year (2001. U do the math. Even one is too many. What part about that don't you get. You seem to think if it is only a few, it's okay.

 

[jillio]

The government already knows who all owns guns. Firearms all have to be registered when you buy them. They have much easier access to the firearm registration database (which is owned and operated by the people who give licenses) than they ever would with a doctor's notes.



Generically? No, I'd stereotypically assume a doctor in Texas is far more likely to be knowledgeable on gun safety than in NJ. And yet Texas is the state where they were banned from being allowed to talk about it!



Huh, interesting. I did not know that. TIL.

That's what I'm saying. People are getting all paranoid and don't even know what the note in the chart would amount to. They act like the doc writes "Joey has a gun and his son is likely to be killed by it. Make not to call Children's Services."

 

[Jiro]

The government already knows who all owns guns. Firearms all have to be registered when you buy them. They have much easier access to the firearm registration database (which is owned and operated by the people who give licenses) than they ever would with a doctor's notes.

wrong. many states do not require firearm registrations.

 

[Jiro]

That's what I'm saying. People are getting all paranoid and don't even know what the note in the chart would amount to. They act like the doc writes "Joey has a gun and his son is likely to be killed by it. Make not to call Children's Services."

it's more like "Patient A's father declined discussion of gun safety" and it would raise a concern.

 

[StSapphire]

and how many kids were killed by guns in this country in a single day?

Going by 2007 numbers, 398 (so, roughly 1 per day) if you only include children 0-14, and 3067 (roughly 8.5 per day) if you include up to 19. How many deaths per day should be acceptable?

 

[jillio]

wrong. many states do not require firearm registrations.

You need to move to one of them. Maybe your paranoia would get better.

But all states do have licensure laws. Uh oh! They can still find you.

 

[jillio]

it's more like "Patient A's father declined discussion of gun safety" and it would raise a concern.

How could that possible raise a concern? NO ONE SEES THE RECORDS, DIM WIT.

 

[Jiro]

2911 in a single year (2001. U do the math. Even one is too many. What part about that don't you get. You seem to think if it is only a few, it's okay.

that's not what I asked for.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Going by 2007 numbers, 398 (so, roughly 1 per day) if you only include children 0-14, and 3067 (roughly 8.5 per day) if you include up to 19. How many deaths per day should be acceptable?

Sacrificial lambs.

 

[Banjo]

it's more like "Patient A's father declined discussion of gun safety" and it would raise a concern.

Really? How do you know? Chances are they probably doodled a goofy portrait of you as well.

 

[jillio]

that's not what I asked for.

Lazy. Don't you have a calculator on that computer?

 

[Jiro]

How could that possible raise a concern? NO ONE SEES THE RECORDS, DIM WIT.

I'm about half your age and you resort to name-calling? oye...

 

[Jiro]

You need to move to one of them. Maybe your paranoia would get better.

why? what for? Is there anything wrong with defending the very concept of Constitutional rights?

But all states do have licensure laws. Uh oh! They can still find you.

wrong. not all states have licensure laws.