Do you think transpositional(high freq---> low freq) HAs will be popular soon?

[deafdyke]

There was some excitment about transpositional aids when they were first introduced, but I doubt that they will ever be popular. They'll be an option for some people, but the market for them won't ever be like the market for more traditional aids.

 

[SteveAUD]

Perhaps Jenny can ask her audiologist how did they manage to get the Phonaks to transport to low frequencies so that Jenny could achieve benefit and hear the higher frequency sounds? I know her hearing is worse than mine and if she benefits, there's no reason I shouldn't benefit as well.

Id like to have the Phonak Naidas shift everything above 1000Hz down to 1000Hz and lower frequencies. 1500Hz is still too high for me(and Jenny)

She doesn't, it's that simple (they don't compress frequencies to any region below 1500). The Naidia's are just extremely powerful aids, the frequency compression in her case is just "Crunch it and what ever she gets is a bonus".

Her benefit is different from yours, everyones definition of benefit or success is different from one person to the next. Benefit is subjective.

 

[JennyB]

It is simple....she doesn't hear speech!

I do hear speech, but do not understand it. I must speech read to understand any speech. On occasion I may "hear" one word when I'm not looking but it is normally from within a closed set (of max 4 words) or within a context.

Sound recover is more comfortable for me too. Being blasted with high frequencies I can't hear does me little good and gives me a headache, bringing them down means I can tollerate more gain and hear a little more as a result.

 

[SteveESP52]

Deafdude.

I understand what you are asking. Trying to give you a method of trying this out. I don't know if it works but give it a try and you might have to look for a while.

Get an old record player that plays vinyl records and one with the several different speeds. 16, 33, 45 and 78. CD's will not work nore will tape players. There may be computer programs out that can compress the frequency range but I know of none.

If you get a 45 single and play it at 33 speed or even 16, the frequencies sound lower since the frequency the needle vibrates is slower but of course the song or what ever is playing will go slower as well. You might be able to get an idea of what it could be like with having the frequency range compressed to 125 to 1500. Yes, it may take a lot of concentration initially to understand the different sounds but you can probably get use to it. The lower frequency vibration may also drive you nuts but could give you what you are looking for. When I was loosing my hearing, I would have times where the frequency range would be compressed to the higher frequencies meaning what use to sound like 750hz would sound like 2000 hz and I would mostly loose the very low frequencies. It was a odd sensation but some of the time I could understand better during these times.

Computer programs may be able to simulate this frequency compression and not change the speed of the playback.

I don't know if any of this makes since but maybe it does and might be worth a try.

With my CI's, my right ear hears sounds at a slightly lower frequency than my left ear does. I believe this is directly linked to how deep the electrodes were placed. Does it cause me problems, not much any more. I'm pretty use to it and my brain has adjusted. Initially, it sounded like there were two people talking at the same time saying the same thing which was confusing so I turned down one of my CI's to clear this up.

With this being my experience, I would think if you give this idea a try, you may want it only in one ear but I'm not an audiologist, I just have a hearing loss and worked through the loss with two different HA's and now Bilateral CI's. I'm doing pretty well at 97% speech understanding 3 months after activation of the second CI and 100% on my first CI. I believe my sucess is related to how much I listen to music and how often I go back in for mapping sessions but I am also really lucky that it is working as well as it is.

Keep asking questions. This is the only way to learn. Some on this form will also say there are times to act on the information. It seams you are still gathering informatin and looking for options. Please be assured I know what it is like to have to make a decission to go under the knife. It is not something to take lightly. In my case, I chose to implant the worse of my two ears (Left - NR at 110db) hoping I could adapt to the CI before I was totally deaf in my good ear. In my case, it worked. I chose a second CI 2 years after my first to give me a back up and to see what it could be like to hear Bilaterally. Something I had not experienced for 17 years.

Steve

 

[faire_jour]

I do hear speech, but do not understand it. I must speech read to understand any speech. On occasion I may "hear" one word when I'm not looking but it is normally from within a closed set (of max 4 words) or within a context.

Sound recover is more comfortable for me too. Being blasted with high frequencies I can't hear does me little good and gives me a headache, bringing them down means I can tollerate more gain and hear a little more as a result.

Thanks for the correction. I meant that you don't understand speech. He just doesn't get that one person calls enviroemntal sounds "benefit" and another would call that "no benefit".

 

[JennyB]

Thanks for the correction. I meant that you don't understand speech. He just doesn't get that one person calls enviroemntal sounds "benefit" and another would call that "no benefit".

No worries! I agree, he doesn't get it.

 

[deafdude1]

She doesn't, it's that simple (they don't compress frequencies to any region below 1500). The Naidia's are just extremely powerful aids, the frequency compression in her case is just "Crunch it and what ever she gets is a bonus".

Her benefit is different from yours, everyones definition of benefit or success is different from one person to the next. Benefit is subjective.

Id be curious if Jenny can tell the difference with and without transposition. If she can, perhaps it's possible it has something to do with cochlear dead regions. If she can't hear above 1000Hz, there's no point amplifying more than 50% above that from what ive read. Would simply turning off the gains above 1500Hz also be possible? I do agree with her when she says benefit since she's still hearing environmental sounds. In my opinion, I hear well up to 1000Hz(110db loss at that Hz) with the same HAs. I am aided to 40db at 1000Hz and can hear that sound from across the room.

I do hear speech, but do not understand it. I must speech read to understand any speech. On occasion I may "hear" one word when I'm not looking but it is normally from within a closed set (of max 4 words) or within a context.

Sound recover is more comfortable for me too. Being blasted with high frequencies I can't hear does me little good and gives me a headache, bringing them down means I can tollerate more gain and hear a little more as a result.

I am able to understand 72% of speech from a close set of 4 words. I made a thread on that a couple months back. As for high frequencies, do you hear or feel anything as a result of cochlear dead region? My HAs also blast me with the highs and I experience no headaches and the only sounds I hear is a low frequency noise-like sound due to cochlear dead region. My audie should turn the gains off above 1500Hz or 2000Hz as it's pointless amplifying dead zones. May I ask what difference soundrecover vs. simply turning off the high frequency gains does for you? My audie will try both options when he reprograms the HA, but im wondering which option might be best and im here to learn.

How well do you hear at 250Hz, 500Hz, 750Hz, 1000Hz? There's online hearing tests and sound/tone generators one can find out with. Are you even able to hear anything at 1000Hz with 120db HL? I can't hear 2000Hz in either ear. I do hear well up to 1000Hz then it goes downhill rapidly from there. 1250Hz is alot more quiet than 1000Hz and 1500Hz is barely audible.

SteveESP52, thanks for your experience. Like you, I am also learning. Everyone's hearing is different and I will be working with my audie to have my HAs programmed optimally for me.

 

[JennyB]

Id be curious if Jenny can tell the difference with and without transposition.

yes, I can. Voices sound very different with and without it. I definitely prefer with.

As for high frequencies, do you hear or feel anything as a result of cochlear dead region?

Not to my knowledge.

May I ask what difference soundrecover vs. simply turning off the high frequency gains does for you?

With the sound recover I hear more and it is more comfortable for me. Turning off the high frequencies would do little for me.

How well do you hear at 250Hz, 500Hz, 750Hz, 1000Hz? There's online hearing tests and sound/tone generators one can find out with.

Online hearing tests are not accurate by any sense of the word, but here is my audiogram from my audiologist.

Freq R L
250Hz 105 100
500Hz 110 105
750Hz 115 105
1000Hz 120 115
1500Hz and up is all NR

Are you even able to hear anything at 1000Hz with 120db HL?

Yes

 

[Hear Again]

Jenny,

I don't know if you have the ability to describe this, but how do voices sound different with and without transposition aids? I asked my former CI audi if I could try transposition aids during my CI evaluation, but she said I'd have a difficult time adjusting to them and would benefit more from a CI given the degree of my hearing loss even at low frequencies.

 

[JennyB]

Hear Again,

It is hard to describe. It sounds and feels more normal and comfortable for me. When I first tried it everthing sounded really high pitched but now without it everything sounds high pitched. It just sounds normal!

 

[Hear Again]

Hear Again,

It is hard to describe. It sounds and feels more normal and comfortable for me. When I first tried it everthing sounded really high pitched but now without it everything sounds high pitched. It just sounds normal!

That's really interesting. I wasn't sure how much you could describe because I know you can't understand speech. My former CI audi's concern was that I would have too much difficulty adjusting to transposition aids and there was no guarantee that I would benefit from them.

 

[deafdude1]

I stumbled across this article that shows a profoundly deaf person with a corner audiogram being able to hear great with the wonders of transposition in 2003! He can now even hear alot on phones! Why don't more people take transposition seriously? My own HAs have transposition but the cutoff of 1500Hz is too high, I need sounds to be transposed to the lows.

Dan's New Hearing Aid - Deaf Online

 

[john57]

deafdude1

transposition aids has been around a long time starting the AVR aids made in Israel way back to late 1990's and they never became popular. I spoke audiologists at the time and only a few people can understand speech that has been transposed to a different frequency band. I am very doubtful that transposition aids will ever be a big success. It will just benefit a few.

 

[deafdude1]

It's still worth a try, see those two case studies. Their speech improved alot!

Hearing Review

 

[john57]

I am aware of the two case studies and just keep in mind that the Hearing Review magazine is supported in part by hearing aids manufactures. I read the mag myself to spot trends. Many adults can not adjust to the transposition aids as the sounds will tend not to be "natural" and may not always improve speech understanding. That is why Phonak makes transposition a limited function in the Naida aids. I spoke with audiologists in the field long time ago that has fitted the AVR impact aids and their success rate is one of seven at best. Like I said it can help a few and a child is more likely to be able to successful use the transposition aids. It is good to have choices but transposition aids has not come to be popular yet.
John

 

[deafdude1]

I am aware of the two case studies and just keep in mind that the Hearing Review magazine is supported in part by hearing aids manufactures. I read the mag myself to spot trends. Many adults can not adjust to the transposition aids as the sounds will tend not to be "natural" and may not always improve speech understanding. That is why Phonak makes transposition a limited function in the Naida aids. I spoke with audiologists in the field long time ago that has fitted the AVR impact aids and their success rate is one of seven at best. Like I said it can help a few and a child is more likely to be able to successful use the transposition aids. It is good to have choices but transposition aids has not come to be popular yet.
John

A 15% chance of success is alot when it adds up to thousands of people who could benefit. There is no risk in trying different transpositional HAs, unlike CIs. Don't like it? Go back to your former HAs.

 

[stream2525]

Does this really work??

Who has experience in this ???

What hearing aids are best in this??

Does it help in speech??

 

[Hear Again]

Does this really work??...Does it help in speech??

I think this varies from person to person. When I was evaluated for my first CI, my audi discouraged me from trying transposition aids because of the difficulty I would have learning to interpret the sounds I hear with them. That audi (I now have a new CI audi) has extensive experience with this, so she said I'd have much better results with a CI.

If there is anyone on AD who uses transposition aids, I'd be curious to know what they sound like and what your success has been with understanding speech. If you could offer any comments about music enjoyment, I'd appreciate reading them as well.

 

[deafdude1]

I use transpositional HAs but I get no benefit from transposition since the cutoff is 1500Hz and I have no residual hearing above 1000Hz. I am not surprised Hear Again never tried them, her hearing is much worse than mine. But for those with more residual hearing than me, they definately should try transposition.

 

[john57]

I went to a meeting last Saturday about the latest in transpositional aids. When AVR came out with their transpositional aid called Impact close to 15 years ago it was a straight transposition on top of the lower frequencies. Then there was a second version that prevented the transposition from over riding the normal frequencies, Then Phonak came out with their version in which the transposition is done with compressing the high frequencies before moving then to the lower frequencies. This seems to work better and some HOH high schoolers are having better results with this approach. It is a long time coming to see transpositional aids working a bit better for clients.