Do you believe in God?
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^Angel^ said:
There are no physical proof of Jesus Christ while there are for the documented history events. Only the problem is, you cannot dig up famous people from their graves because it is considered disturbing the peace of the dead. World War I did happen, World War II did happen, The Korean War did happen, The Vietnam War did happen and I didn't exist during these periods. But how do I know they actually happened?
Because of the history textbooks, video footage, photos, uniforms, weapons, and many form of physical proof. But have you yet to find the proof that Jesus Christ did exist?
Or God?
No, but we believe in our hearts that he does exist. It is up to a person on whether to believe or not.
We're talking about now, not the Judgment Day. I am not saying I don't believe in God. I do believe the possibility that there is a superior being out there and it may be God himself. The Judgment Day may not happen in our lifetime, it may happen a year from now on, or 10,000 years instead.
Or Earth may just go KA-BOOM before God's planned Judgment Day.
Yes it can happen, just like he is unable to control us. Human Beings are capable of blowing up buildings murdering thousands of people in a few seconds. God cannot stop us from causing chaos. These are the dark ages for us and for him.
Human Beings are left alone to learn their lessons on their own. They use God and Jesus Christ as their spiritual guide.
A day to God is like a lifetime for us. For example, the computer game, The Sims. The people in the game can go through 25 years or more in a single day.
The concept of time isn't that much of a difference when it come to discussing God, Human Beings and Time.
Anyway, words does not prove the existence of God. Just like the textbooks on the Civil War are flawed in many places since it conflicts with the other textbooks.
Heck, it's even possible that the 6 million Jews murdered is far more than the actual figures due to the lack of documents and records. It remains an estimate to this day, not a fact. But they are still holding on that 6 million figure till they find the proof.
But that doesn't mean God isn't real. Like I said, I do believe the possibility that the existence is for real.
The Heretic
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In addition, since the Epistles of Paul do not refer to the Gospels themselves, bible scholars date the Gospels of Christ (Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) to be written late in the 1st century, from after the Jewish rebellion in 70, to late 2nd century. This is further supported by the fact that the epistles of Paul are all written before 70AD.
That weakens the christian's claim that the Gospels themselves are historical - because they are less of a historical paper and more of a propaganda mythmaking invention. All the claims of the destruction of the Temple, which seem like prophecies, have been invented by the Gospel writers after the fact that the Temple was burned in the Jewish rebellion.
No other historian refers to Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD, except for Josephus. And that is a whole 'nother ball of wax!
That weakens the christian's claim that the Gospels themselves are historical - because they are less of a historical paper and more of a propaganda mythmaking invention. All the claims of the destruction of the Temple, which seem like prophecies, have been invented by the Gospel writers after the fact that the Temple was burned in the Jewish rebellion.
No other historian refers to Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD, except for Josephus. And that is a whole 'nother ball of wax!
DeafMessianic
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"There are no physical proof of Jesus Christ while there are for the documented history events."
Well, we do have the report that Pontius Pilate, (the one who washed his hands and gave Jesus to the soldiers to be crucified) wrote to the Cesaer, to explain what happened and why Jesus was crucified! It is now in a British Museum.
Well, we do have the report that Pontius Pilate, (the one who washed his hands and gave Jesus to the soldiers to be crucified) wrote to the Cesaer, to explain what happened and why Jesus was crucified! It is now in a British Museum.
BigSpike
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The Heretic said:In addition, since the Epistles of Paul do not refer to the Gospels themselves, bible scholars date the Gospels of Christ (Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) to be written late in the 1st century, from after the Jewish rebellion in 70, to late 2nd century. This is further supported by the fact that the epistles of Paul are all written before 70AD.
That weakens the christian's claim that the Gospels themselves are historical - because they are less of a historical paper and more of a propaganda mythmaking invention. All the claims of the destruction of the Temple, which seem like prophecies, have been invented by the Gospel writers after the fact that the Temple was burned in the Jewish rebellion.
No other historian refers to Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD, except for Josephus. And that is a whole 'nother ball of wax!
Heretic...You defined yourself as disavowing a revealed truth...have you realize this you are misinterpreting yourself into something this human DONT want to believe...sad...often people misinterprets the biblical verse from one sentence and provide with wrong meaning...in order to understand the biblical viewpoint is to read the chapter and discreet the true meaning of verse this connects to other verse...unfortunately you chose to misinterpret the truth...you chose to distort the truth...I am not interest in your distorting truth because....unfortunately, curse on this person who try to weakens other's faith and belief. May curse fell on anyone who wreck or distort the truth upon people who have strong dedicating of faith...keep my word...maybe you disagree but one day you will see how you distort it...
BigSpike said:
You can ask me a question, but I have no intention of answering the question you recently asked me because I don't find it to be a logical question and that it has nothing to do with what I just said.
What ever did I say that gave you the impression that the bible is doomed?
What did I say to give people the impression that GOd's word is doomed?
I didn't. But what I am saying is that we, human beings are capable of destroying Earth ourselves which may make a conflict with God's plans to end the world the way he wants to.
We blew up some cities in Japan causing hundreds of thousands of deaths back in 1945, did God take a part in it? No, the Americans did.
Did God take a part in the 3,000 deaths at WTC on September 11, 2001? No, the terrorists did.
Did God take a part in the thousands of deaths at Pearl Harbour back in 1941? No, the Japanese pilots did.
Did God take a part in the 6 million deaths of Jews during the Holocaust? No, Hitler and his followers did.
Did God stop them?
No. He cannot stop them because they are human beings who are perfectly capable of conquering and destroying countries.
All of these awful crimes were done by us, human beings! It shows that we are capable of destroying Earth without having God doing it for us. That is why I warn people to not expect Judgment Day because we can create our own Judgment Day without God's help with the use of chemcial, nuclear, and many more forms of weapons.
The thing is, God can remain true to his words as long we don't get to it before he does.
I really don't feel challenged by your question. There are no answers because the Bible is a book filled with verses, with the potential of having truth to it.
A book cannot be doomed. But the race of Human Beings along with the Earth can be doomed if we choose to doom it. After all, we are human beings.
We fight our own wars.
BigSpike said:You quoted this believer have burden to proof...I dont have burden..God is BLESSING and I experienced MIRACLE from God...it is your opinion not mine...I stand by what I believe in...burden on believer to show proof mean they lack of spiritual growth FYI...You are getting wrong picture
The burden of proof is on the believer to show evidence for God, so that means the burden is on them to show that their experiences with miracles from God were actually miracles rather than resulting from things other than God like natural phenonena, including the brain imagining things. The burden is also on them to show that God actually causes natural phenonena to happen or to be possible. If it can't be done, then the principle called Occam's razor is used. It says that there shouldn't be unneccessary multiplying of entities in the framework of ideas used to explain things. And the burden of proof is also on believers to show that God is actually blessing too, but first they must show that it exists in the first place.
RedFox
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Hey Banjo,
What a nice comment you've made. Let me tell you something. It's the devil's works to cause all these evil things in people's lives everyday. It is not God's idea to do that since God is very compassionated God to His beloved people that He created to similiar His image.
Have a wonderful day !
What a nice comment you've made. Let me tell you something. It's the devil's works to cause all these evil things in people's lives everyday. It is not God's idea to do that since God is very compassionated God to His beloved people that He created to similiar His image.
Have a wonderful day !
DeafMessianic
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Why do I choose Messianic?
A Study, by Yac'ob
With so many religions and beliefs in the world, why should I choose the Messianic, and why in particular, one that teaches a two house concept?
Before the questions can be answered, it is imperative to understand what a Messianic believer is. This alone could be answered in many ways by different people, but the bottom line is this: A Messianic believer is one who recognizes the importance of Yahshua's Judaic background. That Yahshua taught a Jewish nation using traditional Jewish accepted forms of teaching. A messianic nation using traditional Jewish accepted forms of teaching.
A Messianic is one who understands that to fully understand the teachings of Master Yahshua, one must move beyond the limited teaching and understanding of traditional Greco-Roman theology, and grasp the teachings through Hebraic understanding; recognizing that a deeper and more meaningful understanding comes from recognizing and incorporating the Hebraic culture and it's use of language, symbolism, and idioms.
In most cases, a Messianic believer is someone who has a background in a Christian church. But because this person recognizes that traditional Christianity fails to understand or even acknowledge that Yahshua was a Jew, who taught as a Jew. Almost all Messianic's recognize that Yahshua taught people to keep The Commandments, and that the churches twist the teachings of Paul to teach commandment breaking. Because a Messianic recognizes The Torah, The Law; and sees that the Orthodox conservative Jews are the only ones keeping Torah, we recognize that there is a middle ground, a hybrid, if you will.
A Messianic recognizes that the Jews were YHWH's chosen people for keeping and preserving the Torah and it's teachings. At the same time recognizing that because most Jews reject the Messiah's first coming as a mortal man, they have missed a very important event in the lives of men.
Therefore, a Messianic is a believer in the Messiah, Yahshua; who recognizes that YHWH is calling us to remember the covenant He made with Israel, the Hebrew people. This brings us to the portion of Messianics that believe in the 2 house teachings and scriptures.
In Ezekiel 37:16-22 we find the 2 'stick' prophecy.
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith YHWH; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith YHWH; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Each stick represents one of the 2 'houses' or divisions of Israel. To understand this 2 houses' or divisions of Israel, we need to read 1 Kings 11:5-13, 43 and 1 Kings 12:1-33.
1 Kings 11:5-13, 43
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of YHWH, and went not fully after YHWH, as did David his father.
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before
Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their mighty ones.
9 And YHWH was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from YHWH Elohim of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other mighty ones: but he kept not that which YHWH commanded.
11 Wherefore YHWH said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.
43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 12:1-33
1 And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king.
2 And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was yet in Egypt, heard of it , (for he was fled from the presence of king Solomon, and Jeroboam dwelt in Egypt
3 That they sent and called him. And Jeroboam and all the congregation of Israel came, and spake unto Rehoboam, saying,
4 Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee.
5 And he said unto them, Depart yet for three days, then come again to me. And the people departed.
6 And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men, that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer this people?
7 And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.
8 But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:
9 And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?
10 And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus
shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.
11 And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again the third day.
13 And the king answered the people roughly, and forsook the old men's counsel that they gave him;
14 And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
15 Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people; for the cause was from YHWH, that he might perform his saying, which YHWH spake by Ahijah the Shilonite unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat.
16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.
17 But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.
18 Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the tribute; and all Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. Therefore king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem.
(Continued)
A Study, by Yac'ob
With so many religions and beliefs in the world, why should I choose the Messianic, and why in particular, one that teaches a two house concept?
Before the questions can be answered, it is imperative to understand what a Messianic believer is. This alone could be answered in many ways by different people, but the bottom line is this: A Messianic believer is one who recognizes the importance of Yahshua's Judaic background. That Yahshua taught a Jewish nation using traditional Jewish accepted forms of teaching. A messianic nation using traditional Jewish accepted forms of teaching.
A Messianic is one who understands that to fully understand the teachings of Master Yahshua, one must move beyond the limited teaching and understanding of traditional Greco-Roman theology, and grasp the teachings through Hebraic understanding; recognizing that a deeper and more meaningful understanding comes from recognizing and incorporating the Hebraic culture and it's use of language, symbolism, and idioms.
In most cases, a Messianic believer is someone who has a background in a Christian church. But because this person recognizes that traditional Christianity fails to understand or even acknowledge that Yahshua was a Jew, who taught as a Jew. Almost all Messianic's recognize that Yahshua taught people to keep The Commandments, and that the churches twist the teachings of Paul to teach commandment breaking. Because a Messianic recognizes The Torah, The Law; and sees that the Orthodox conservative Jews are the only ones keeping Torah, we recognize that there is a middle ground, a hybrid, if you will.
A Messianic recognizes that the Jews were YHWH's chosen people for keeping and preserving the Torah and it's teachings. At the same time recognizing that because most Jews reject the Messiah's first coming as a mortal man, they have missed a very important event in the lives of men.
Therefore, a Messianic is a believer in the Messiah, Yahshua; who recognizes that YHWH is calling us to remember the covenant He made with Israel, the Hebrew people. This brings us to the portion of Messianics that believe in the 2 house teachings and scriptures.
In Ezekiel 37:16-22 we find the 2 'stick' prophecy.
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith YHWH; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith YHWH; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Each stick represents one of the 2 'houses' or divisions of Israel. To understand this 2 houses' or divisions of Israel, we need to read 1 Kings 11:5-13, 43 and 1 Kings 12:1-33.
1 Kings 11:5-13, 43
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of YHWH, and went not fully after YHWH, as did David his father.
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before
Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their mighty ones.
9 And YHWH was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from YHWH Elohim of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other mighty ones: but he kept not that which YHWH commanded.
11 Wherefore YHWH said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.
43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 12:1-33
1 And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king.
2 And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was yet in Egypt, heard of it , (for he was fled from the presence of king Solomon, and Jeroboam dwelt in Egypt
3 That they sent and called him. And Jeroboam and all the congregation of Israel came, and spake unto Rehoboam, saying,
4 Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee.
5 And he said unto them, Depart yet for three days, then come again to me. And the people departed.
6 And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men, that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer this people?
7 And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.
8 But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:
9 And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?
10 And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus
shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.
11 And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again the third day.
13 And the king answered the people roughly, and forsook the old men's counsel that they gave him;
14 And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
15 Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people; for the cause was from YHWH, that he might perform his saying, which YHWH spake by Ahijah the Shilonite unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat.
16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.
17 But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.
18 Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the tribute; and all Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. Therefore king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem.
(Continued)
DeafMessianic
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19 So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.
20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.
21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
22 But the word of Elohim came unto Shemaiah the man of Elohim, saying,
23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,
24 Thus saith YHWH, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of YHWH, and returned to depart, according to the word of YHWH.
25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of YHWH at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.
28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy mighty ones, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.
32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.
33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.
In these passages we see the once mighty Israel of David and Solomon, now divided into 2 nations, or houses. The Southern house of Judah; with a portion of Benjamin, and a portion of Levi, who were the priests.
The Northern kingdom which came to be called by several names, including the house of Ephraim, the house of Jacob, the house of Israel (which was another name for Jacob). Throughout scriptures and especially the prophecies we see reference made to these 'houses.'
In Genesis 32:6-8 we see that there is a time when Judah and Israel will be united in the land YHWH gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The promised land.
Genesis 32:6-8
6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.
7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands;
8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.
When the kingdom was divided and the Northern kingdom (Israel) started serving idols, they were warned that they would be taken into captivity. This happened when Assyria invaded and captured them. Instead of killing them all, Assyria took them and moved them into the far reaches of the Assyrian Empire.
Although over the years there may have been small family groups which returned to the land of Israel, most of them became assimilated into the cultures in which they were moved.
Israel never returned to the Promised Land. On the other hand, after the division, when Judah started serving idols, they were taken into captivity in Babylon. But that captivity lasted only 70 years. Then they returned to the Promised Land. This had to be, for the Messiah was prophesied to be born in the Promised Land, in Bethlehem. Approximately 70 years after Messiah's death and resurrection Judah was again destroyed and the Jews dispersed. (Those that lived.)
Now we have a period of time when neither nation lived in the promised land. This prophetically was called the time of the gentiles: YHWH's chosen people had been dispersed. The house of Judah basically retained their identity through the Torah.
The House of Israel, although they had lost their person identity, had been given the testimony of Yahshua. Read Matthew 10:6 and Matthew 15:24.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Yahshua, as Elohim, knew who the house of Israel was, therefore He sent His disciples to them to teach them about the Messiah, so that, when all was fulfilled and Messiah was put to death and later resurrected, the lost house of Israel would be able to receive these things. And the Holy Spirit would show them why these things came to be. Israel would then have the testimony. Which the churches have basically kept, although in an adulterated form.
Which leads us back again to why we leave the worldly, gentile churches, for the Messianic beliefs.
Because we recognize that the churches' testimony is no longer pure. That it has become tainted with paganism, the set-apart Spirit has showed us the true testimony of the scriptures. And in our desire for truth, we must turn away from that which is not true.
To conclude: As we come into this Messianic understanding, we realize that just as here was a division in the original Kingdom of Israel. The House of Jacob and the House of Judah. We also realize that there is a division in their commission. The House of Judah was given the Oracles, the Torah. The House of Jacob (or Israel) was given the testimony.
Prophecies tell us that in the end times, Yahshua will restore -- re-unite the two under a New Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12. In that day of re-uniting, there two 'houses' will be returned to the Promised Land Jeremiah 30:3.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 8:8-12
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a Elohim, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 30:3
3 For, lo, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith YHWH: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
In Revelations 12:17 we see that those Satan wants to destroy has both the Commandments of Elohim, and the testimony of Yahshua. Revelations 14:12 also mentions this 2 part message.
Revelations 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of Elohim, and have the testimony of Yahushua Messiah.
Revelations 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yahushua.
There is only 1 group of people today have both the Torah and Testimony, and who recognize that the prophesies of the end times are directed to 2 groups or houses of people. That is the 2 house, Messianic believers. We have been truly blessed by YHWH to have received this calling and truth. But now we must follow the admonitions in the book of James 1:22, 26 to become doers of the Word, we must be discerning students of the Word!
James 1:22, 26
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.
21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
22 But the word of Elohim came unto Shemaiah the man of Elohim, saying,
23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,
24 Thus saith YHWH, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of YHWH, and returned to depart, according to the word of YHWH.
25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of YHWH at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.
28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy mighty ones, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.
32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.
33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.
In these passages we see the once mighty Israel of David and Solomon, now divided into 2 nations, or houses. The Southern house of Judah; with a portion of Benjamin, and a portion of Levi, who were the priests.
The Northern kingdom which came to be called by several names, including the house of Ephraim, the house of Jacob, the house of Israel (which was another name for Jacob). Throughout scriptures and especially the prophecies we see reference made to these 'houses.'
In Genesis 32:6-8 we see that there is a time when Judah and Israel will be united in the land YHWH gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The promised land.
Genesis 32:6-8
6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.
7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands;
8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.
When the kingdom was divided and the Northern kingdom (Israel) started serving idols, they were warned that they would be taken into captivity. This happened when Assyria invaded and captured them. Instead of killing them all, Assyria took them and moved them into the far reaches of the Assyrian Empire.
Although over the years there may have been small family groups which returned to the land of Israel, most of them became assimilated into the cultures in which they were moved.
Israel never returned to the Promised Land. On the other hand, after the division, when Judah started serving idols, they were taken into captivity in Babylon. But that captivity lasted only 70 years. Then they returned to the Promised Land. This had to be, for the Messiah was prophesied to be born in the Promised Land, in Bethlehem. Approximately 70 years after Messiah's death and resurrection Judah was again destroyed and the Jews dispersed. (Those that lived.)
Now we have a period of time when neither nation lived in the promised land. This prophetically was called the time of the gentiles: YHWH's chosen people had been dispersed. The house of Judah basically retained their identity through the Torah.
The House of Israel, although they had lost their person identity, had been given the testimony of Yahshua. Read Matthew 10:6 and Matthew 15:24.
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Yahshua, as Elohim, knew who the house of Israel was, therefore He sent His disciples to them to teach them about the Messiah, so that, when all was fulfilled and Messiah was put to death and later resurrected, the lost house of Israel would be able to receive these things. And the Holy Spirit would show them why these things came to be. Israel would then have the testimony. Which the churches have basically kept, although in an adulterated form.
Which leads us back again to why we leave the worldly, gentile churches, for the Messianic beliefs.
Because we recognize that the churches' testimony is no longer pure. That it has become tainted with paganism, the set-apart Spirit has showed us the true testimony of the scriptures. And in our desire for truth, we must turn away from that which is not true.
To conclude: As we come into this Messianic understanding, we realize that just as here was a division in the original Kingdom of Israel. The House of Jacob and the House of Judah. We also realize that there is a division in their commission. The House of Judah was given the Oracles, the Torah. The House of Jacob (or Israel) was given the testimony.
Prophecies tell us that in the end times, Yahshua will restore -- re-unite the two under a New Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12. In that day of re-uniting, there two 'houses' will be returned to the Promised Land Jeremiah 30:3.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 8:8-12
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a Elohim, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 30:3
3 For, lo, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith YHWH: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
In Revelations 12:17 we see that those Satan wants to destroy has both the Commandments of Elohim, and the testimony of Yahshua. Revelations 14:12 also mentions this 2 part message.
Revelations 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of Elohim, and have the testimony of Yahushua Messiah.
Revelations 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of Elohim, and the faith of Yahushua.
There is only 1 group of people today have both the Torah and Testimony, and who recognize that the prophesies of the end times are directed to 2 groups or houses of people. That is the 2 house, Messianic believers. We have been truly blessed by YHWH to have received this calling and truth. But now we must follow the admonitions in the book of James 1:22, 26 to become doers of the Word, we must be discerning students of the Word!
James 1:22, 26
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
The Heretic
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ho ho ho n a bottle of Jesus' wine!
Spike
I notice you did not specifically address the mistranslation and chose to attack my handle, which means u are grandstanding and little else.
Actually you are using the roman catholic church's definition of the word, heretic, with regards to their dogma. A lesson in etymology shall illustrate your ignorance:
The history of the word 'heretic' demonstratess how words are ideologically laden. The modern term comes from its mother Middle English, heretik, which is in turn derived from Old French, heretique, and that term came from Late Latin, hareticus, and finally Old Greek Haretikos. The original definition of the word Haretikos means "able to choose."
In Greek Heresy is Hairesis, which is 'a choosing.' There are three significations:
Hairesthai means "to choose." To choose is what it means to be free. The identity of sovereign individuality exists onl within the actions of a free person. The discursive formations of freedom contains two interpretations, positive and negative. The positive freedom is best explained b Jean Paul Sartre, and the negative freedom is essentially political or freedom of liberty, freedom from oppression.
However the word heretic became infused with political implications, and was redefined as a Christian who stubbornly held to doctrinal error in defiance of the church.
Spike
I notice you did not specifically address the mistranslation and chose to attack my handle, which means u are grandstanding and little else.
Actually you are using the roman catholic church's definition of the word, heretic, with regards to their dogma. A lesson in etymology shall illustrate your ignorance:
The history of the word 'heretic' demonstratess how words are ideologically laden. The modern term comes from its mother Middle English, heretik, which is in turn derived from Old French, heretique, and that term came from Late Latin, hareticus, and finally Old Greek Haretikos. The original definition of the word Haretikos means "able to choose."
In Greek Heresy is Hairesis, which is 'a choosing.' There are three significations:
- A choice
- The chosen opinion
- the sect holding that opinion.
Hairesthai means "to choose." To choose is what it means to be free. The identity of sovereign individuality exists onl within the actions of a free person. The discursive formations of freedom contains two interpretations, positive and negative. The positive freedom is best explained b Jean Paul Sartre, and the negative freedom is essentially political or freedom of liberty, freedom from oppression.
However the word heretic became infused with political implications, and was redefined as a Christian who stubbornly held to doctrinal error in defiance of the church.
BigSpike
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Heretic....
Heretic,
I chose to answer by wise not foolish…I am going to tell and answer from your own perspective isn’t my belief…The reason Christianity is the foundation connected from OT is because there are a lot of message of prophecy declared by prophet about coming of Messiah…Messiah is Hebrew word mean anointed one as it is Christ in Greek word.
Virgin word isn’t being misinterpreted from OT, however, today few kinds of translation of bible did noted as on bottom as “or young woman” I studied and research bible carefully. Even some bible do have some missing of verse due to lost of manuscript that was discover to uncover the full picture and truth of bible verse connected to other.
Incorrect about the gospel was written after the rebellion and destruction in 70AD, Matthew was record to be written in between A.D. 60 and 65, Mark was written in between A.D. 55 and 65, Luke in approximately A.D. 60, and John was written between A.D. 85-90, so down to the point not all gospel was written after A.D. 70 especially not gospel of John. He is oldest of 12 disciple of Jesus Christ to be alive since all of them died, and some due to martyrdom especially not Judas Iscariot, he chose to end his life on his own result of his act of deceiving behavior against Jesus Christ. His final life was at Island of Patmos this is where he written the book of Revelation. Often of time the book of Revelation was misinterpreted as fulfilled of A.D. 70. The book of Revelation is full of symbolic, and there are few theories and perspective based on how the events will occurs based on how it was interpreted from book of Revelation.
You asked by the quote of “The odd thing is why would the writer of the Gospel of Matthew use a Greek translation instead of the Hebrew or Aramaic texts...” Keep in mind, during the life of Jesus’ ministry, Israel lost its right of their own land to the empire of Roman, so therefore Jesus spoke 3 different language Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek to match people’s understanding on what people wanted to hear from Jesus’ preaching and teaching.
You said nothing else but only Josephus who refers Jesus Christ as he written on history of Jesus Christ. I disagree with you, why may I give you friendly reference the verse in John 21:25 clearly explain and in additional, there are other books this records about the Jesus for good example book of Thomas and others this wasn’t added to Holy Bible due to based on the rule of canon law.
I had several friendly conversation with Rabbi and Pastors plus my wife is full blooded Jewish. Her root came from Israel which carries rich histories where I discovered more interesting about OT Hebrew perspective it bring up to increase my strong faith. I am not religious buffoon; I just believe and walk by faith. I just spoke out my faith, as I am not hesitated to do so. Sadly, often of time Christians became heavy obsessed on NT instead of research about how OT was connected to NT. OT have much richly history about the explain about God’s old covenant before it was changed to new covenant through the cross of Jesus and his resurrection. I believe this believer cannot justified himself with proof of their belief by NT alone. It is because OT and NT is connected as like unity into one.
Other thing to discuss with you, often of time my friends who are deaf and even deaf blind approached me and asking me why do King James Version was labeled as the authorization of God’s word. It really made me laugh hard, sorry to sound this. In the matter of fact when KJV was first originally translated and written into KJV translation from other language in order for people to read during their period in 1600’s age. When people witnessed first arrival of KJV, they labeled KJV’s as false and twisted doctrinal of God’s. It take years and time for them to realize and analyze to show proof it was correctly translated from other language this explain God’s word in truth way. So, therefore the modern translation such as NIV (New International Version), NLT (New Living Translation), TEV (Today’s English Version) and other kinds of translation bible was labeled as false and twisted doctrinal of God’s word which absence the full truth from KJV. The most commonly realized who stubbornly labeled KJV as authorization of God’s word is most common from strong fundamental Baptist church. Most deaf people have hard time understanding KJV language. I simply told them in today’s version this we don’t speak the KJV language because we speak in modern today’s language. So therefore, more and more deaf people understood NLT bible better and led them to become strong devoted to God’s word and realize their spiritual growth. I don’t tell them what to do, I just help them to match their understanding by their language. Some deaf people don’t still understand NLT or others so they wud prefer ASL bible (u know red bible this said deaf bible, you know what I mean).
I had a good conversation with my dearly and precious friend of mine who is also pastor as part of my one to one weekly as part of my bachelor’s degree requirement. He quoted to me “sadly, too many theologists engaged themselves in theology war and dig out hard to prove how their theology studies was proved correctly compare to their caused to lame their spiritual growth, so don’t waste your breath trying to fight on it, just focus on God and walk by faith.” Years passed, I looked back and realized he was right from beginning. So therefore, I don’t fight hard and try to prove hard but I just point out why Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity from our believing into.
Heretic,
I chose to answer by wise not foolish…I am going to tell and answer from your own perspective isn’t my belief…The reason Christianity is the foundation connected from OT is because there are a lot of message of prophecy declared by prophet about coming of Messiah…Messiah is Hebrew word mean anointed one as it is Christ in Greek word.
Virgin word isn’t being misinterpreted from OT, however, today few kinds of translation of bible did noted as on bottom as “or young woman” I studied and research bible carefully. Even some bible do have some missing of verse due to lost of manuscript that was discover to uncover the full picture and truth of bible verse connected to other.
Incorrect about the gospel was written after the rebellion and destruction in 70AD, Matthew was record to be written in between A.D. 60 and 65, Mark was written in between A.D. 55 and 65, Luke in approximately A.D. 60, and John was written between A.D. 85-90, so down to the point not all gospel was written after A.D. 70 especially not gospel of John. He is oldest of 12 disciple of Jesus Christ to be alive since all of them died, and some due to martyrdom especially not Judas Iscariot, he chose to end his life on his own result of his act of deceiving behavior against Jesus Christ. His final life was at Island of Patmos this is where he written the book of Revelation. Often of time the book of Revelation was misinterpreted as fulfilled of A.D. 70. The book of Revelation is full of symbolic, and there are few theories and perspective based on how the events will occurs based on how it was interpreted from book of Revelation.
You asked by the quote of “The odd thing is why would the writer of the Gospel of Matthew use a Greek translation instead of the Hebrew or Aramaic texts...” Keep in mind, during the life of Jesus’ ministry, Israel lost its right of their own land to the empire of Roman, so therefore Jesus spoke 3 different language Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek to match people’s understanding on what people wanted to hear from Jesus’ preaching and teaching.
You said nothing else but only Josephus who refers Jesus Christ as he written on history of Jesus Christ. I disagree with you, why may I give you friendly reference the verse in John 21:25 clearly explain and in additional, there are other books this records about the Jesus for good example book of Thomas and others this wasn’t added to Holy Bible due to based on the rule of canon law.
I had several friendly conversation with Rabbi and Pastors plus my wife is full blooded Jewish. Her root came from Israel which carries rich histories where I discovered more interesting about OT Hebrew perspective it bring up to increase my strong faith. I am not religious buffoon; I just believe and walk by faith. I just spoke out my faith, as I am not hesitated to do so. Sadly, often of time Christians became heavy obsessed on NT instead of research about how OT was connected to NT. OT have much richly history about the explain about God’s old covenant before it was changed to new covenant through the cross of Jesus and his resurrection. I believe this believer cannot justified himself with proof of their belief by NT alone. It is because OT and NT is connected as like unity into one.
Other thing to discuss with you, often of time my friends who are deaf and even deaf blind approached me and asking me why do King James Version was labeled as the authorization of God’s word. It really made me laugh hard, sorry to sound this. In the matter of fact when KJV was first originally translated and written into KJV translation from other language in order for people to read during their period in 1600’s age. When people witnessed first arrival of KJV, they labeled KJV’s as false and twisted doctrinal of God’s. It take years and time for them to realize and analyze to show proof it was correctly translated from other language this explain God’s word in truth way. So, therefore the modern translation such as NIV (New International Version), NLT (New Living Translation), TEV (Today’s English Version) and other kinds of translation bible was labeled as false and twisted doctrinal of God’s word which absence the full truth from KJV. The most commonly realized who stubbornly labeled KJV as authorization of God’s word is most common from strong fundamental Baptist church. Most deaf people have hard time understanding KJV language. I simply told them in today’s version this we don’t speak the KJV language because we speak in modern today’s language. So therefore, more and more deaf people understood NLT bible better and led them to become strong devoted to God’s word and realize their spiritual growth. I don’t tell them what to do, I just help them to match their understanding by their language. Some deaf people don’t still understand NLT or others so they wud prefer ASL bible (u know red bible this said deaf bible, you know what I mean).
I had a good conversation with my dearly and precious friend of mine who is also pastor as part of my one to one weekly as part of my bachelor’s degree requirement. He quoted to me “sadly, too many theologists engaged themselves in theology war and dig out hard to prove how their theology studies was proved correctly compare to their caused to lame their spiritual growth, so don’t waste your breath trying to fight on it, just focus on God and walk by faith.” Years passed, I looked back and realized he was right from beginning. So therefore, I don’t fight hard and try to prove hard but I just point out why Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity from our believing into.
Banjo said:
Wow, I'm impress with your comments here....sometimes you sure surprise me because I don't know so much about you or what you really believe but this was one of the best post I've ever read from you
The Heretic
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Regurgitating orthodoxy does not involve critical thinking
Well, I don't see how this comes anywhere close to a response to the mistranslation of the Hebrew word 'alma.' You can choose to ignore this, however, but you cannot pretend that the above paragraph addresses my point. If you knew Hebrew, perhaps you could contest this and say I am incorrect.
Do you have any external evidence to support this claim? As far as I'm concerned, there is no positive evidence that the Gospels existed in the 1st century. The only evidence I know of are the following: The Rylands Papyrus that contains a very limited snippet of the Gospel of John, optimistically dated to 125 AD, some date later to 150 AD, Papias through Eusebuis made vague references to Matthew and Mark in 125 AD, and finally, Irenaeus in circa 190 AD for a clear, explicit mention of the Gospels and their authors. The Gospel of Mark contains references to the destruction of the Temple, which took place in 70 AD. If Luke was the author of Acts, which ends in around 62 AD, and his book is written after Mark's (due to the synoptic hypothesis) then he had to have written it after 70 AD. Furthermore, hardly any bible scholar today thinks that a companion of Paul wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts. One scholar, Mason, has demonstrated that Acts clearly borrows from the books of Josephus, which places it much later in the 1st century. My assertion that the Gospels were written after Paul's letters relies on the complete absence of the Gospels in Paul's epistles. There is no mention of the apostolic tradition anywhere in the Epistles. Paul's theology is different from Luke's – Paul proposed revelation and a resurrected Jesus, opting for references to the OT, while Luke (presumably the author of the book of Acts) instead painted a picture of Paul who was close to a historical Jesus and his earthy presence and deeds.
I am fully aware of the orthodox position, but this does not substantiate the claims.
If the Gospels were actually written by the names attested to them (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) then perhaps Justin Martyr should have mentioned them. True or false?
But seriously… the Catholic Church no longer thinks that the gospel of John was written by a single person due to many inconsistencies due to foreign elements were added to the original. They also admit that the highly developed theology and literary style do not support the eyewitness authorship theory. The writer of the Gospel of John does not mention or even quote once from the other three gospels and that his gospel was the only one that contained the "I AM" declarations. For reference, check the Catholic Study Bible, which contains both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur seals of authenticity. There aren't any respected scholars in the field today who thinks that the author of the Gospel of John is the same person as tradition long held, John the son of Zebedee.
You fail to notice that the author himself is assumed to be a Jew, who could read ancient Hebrew. Ergo, your appeal to popularity does not explain away Matthew's mistake of following the Greek translation over the original language.
If you think that the Gospel of John is a historical source, then I'm afraid you are either joking or hopelessly confused about what entails a historical reference. I asked for a historian besides Josephus. You give me the very evidence under question, these propaganda pieces of a mythical figure. A historian has to already have an established reputation as a historian. Has John written any other works on history? Has any other historian mentioned his works as historical? Furthermore, the gospel of Thomas only contains quotes, so I cannot see how that collection is historical. Gnostic books are unreliable, for most are dated in the 2nd century, and are wild speculations that are unabashedly more spiritual and less historical.
BigSpike said:
Well, I don't see how this comes anywhere close to a response to the mistranslation of the Hebrew word 'alma.' You can choose to ignore this, however, but you cannot pretend that the above paragraph addresses my point. If you knew Hebrew, perhaps you could contest this and say I am incorrect.
BigSpike said:
Do you have any external evidence to support this claim? As far as I'm concerned, there is no positive evidence that the Gospels existed in the 1st century. The only evidence I know of are the following: The Rylands Papyrus that contains a very limited snippet of the Gospel of John, optimistically dated to 125 AD, some date later to 150 AD, Papias through Eusebuis made vague references to Matthew and Mark in 125 AD, and finally, Irenaeus in circa 190 AD for a clear, explicit mention of the Gospels and their authors. The Gospel of Mark contains references to the destruction of the Temple, which took place in 70 AD. If Luke was the author of Acts, which ends in around 62 AD, and his book is written after Mark's (due to the synoptic hypothesis) then he had to have written it after 70 AD. Furthermore, hardly any bible scholar today thinks that a companion of Paul wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts. One scholar, Mason, has demonstrated that Acts clearly borrows from the books of Josephus, which places it much later in the 1st century. My assertion that the Gospels were written after Paul's letters relies on the complete absence of the Gospels in Paul's epistles. There is no mention of the apostolic tradition anywhere in the Epistles. Paul's theology is different from Luke's – Paul proposed revelation and a resurrected Jesus, opting for references to the OT, while Luke (presumably the author of the book of Acts) instead painted a picture of Paul who was close to a historical Jesus and his earthy presence and deeds.
BigSpike said:
I am fully aware of the orthodox position, but this does not substantiate the claims.
If the Gospels were actually written by the names attested to them (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) then perhaps Justin Martyr should have mentioned them. True or false?
But seriously… the Catholic Church no longer thinks that the gospel of John was written by a single person due to many inconsistencies due to foreign elements were added to the original. They also admit that the highly developed theology and literary style do not support the eyewitness authorship theory. The writer of the Gospel of John does not mention or even quote once from the other three gospels and that his gospel was the only one that contained the "I AM" declarations. For reference, check the Catholic Study Bible, which contains both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur seals of authenticity. There aren't any respected scholars in the field today who thinks that the author of the Gospel of John is the same person as tradition long held, John the son of Zebedee.
BigSpike said:
You fail to notice that the author himself is assumed to be a Jew, who could read ancient Hebrew. Ergo, your appeal to popularity does not explain away Matthew's mistake of following the Greek translation over the original language.
BigSpike said:
If you think that the Gospel of John is a historical source, then I'm afraid you are either joking or hopelessly confused about what entails a historical reference. I asked for a historian besides Josephus. You give me the very evidence under question, these propaganda pieces of a mythical figure. A historian has to already have an established reputation as a historian. Has John written any other works on history? Has any other historian mentioned his works as historical? Furthermore, the gospel of Thomas only contains quotes, so I cannot see how that collection is historical. Gnostic books are unreliable, for most are dated in the 2nd century, and are wild speculations that are unabashedly more spiritual and less historical.
Ashish Sachdeva
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God means NATURE
God is nothing but Nature who is binded by some rules.Sun, Moon, stars, and other natural bodies are doing their work in fixed manner.It is always better to believe in god.All great man worship GOD I also.
:wackit:
God is nothing but Nature who is binded by some rules.Sun, Moon, stars, and other natural bodies are doing their work in fixed manner.It is always better to believe in god.All great man worship GOD I also.
:wackit:
BigSpike
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The Heretic said:Well, I don't see how this comes anywhere close to a response to the mistranslation of the Hebrew word 'alma.' You can choose to ignore this, however, but you cannot pretend that the above paragraph addresses my point. If you knew Hebrew, perhaps you could contest this and say I am incorrect.
Do you have any external evidence to support this claim? As far as I'm concerned, there is no positive evidence that the Gospels existed in the 1st century. The only evidence I know of are the following: The Rylands Papyrus that contains a very limited snippet of the Gospel of John, optimistically dated to 125 AD, some date later to 150 AD, Papias through Eusebuis made vague references to Matthew and Mark in 125 AD, and finally, Irenaeus in circa 190 AD for a clear, explicit mention of the Gospels and their authors. The Gospel of Mark contains references to the destruction of the Temple, which took place in 70 AD. If Luke was the author of Acts, which ends in around 62 AD, and his book is written after Mark's (due to the synoptic hypothesis) then he had to have written it after 70 AD. Furthermore, hardly any bible scholar today thinks that a companion of Paul wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts. One scholar, Mason, has demonstrated that Acts clearly borrows from the books of Josephus, which places it much later in the 1st century. My assertion that the Gospels were written after Paul's letters relies on the complete absence of the Gospels in Paul's epistles. There is no mention of the apostolic tradition anywhere in the Epistles. Paul's theology is different from Luke's – Paul proposed revelation and a resurrected Jesus, opting for references to the OT, while Luke (presumably the author of the book of Acts) instead painted a picture of Paul who was close to a historical Jesus and his earthy presence and deeds.
I am fully aware of the orthodox position, but this does not substantiate the claims.
If the Gospels were actually written by the names attested to them (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) then perhaps Justin Martyr should have mentioned them. True or false?
But seriously… the Catholic Church no longer thinks that the gospel of John was written by a single person due to many inconsistencies due to foreign elements were added to the original. They also admit that the highly developed theology and literary style do not support the eyewitness authorship theory. The writer of the Gospel of John does not mention or even quote once from the other three gospels and that his gospel was the only one that contained the "I AM" declarations. For reference, check the Catholic Study Bible, which contains both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur seals of authenticity. There aren't any respected scholars in the field today who thinks that the author of the Gospel of John is the same person as tradition long held, John the son of Zebedee.
You fail to notice that the author himself is assumed to be a Jew, who could read ancient Hebrew. Ergo, your appeal to popularity does not explain away Matthew's mistake of following the Greek translation over the original language.
If you think that the Gospel of John is a historical source, then I'm afraid you are either joking or hopelessly confused about what entails a historical reference. I asked for a historian besides Josephus. You give me the very evidence under question, these propaganda pieces of a mythical figure. A historian has to already have an established reputation as a historian. Has John written any other works on history? Has any other historian mentioned his works as historical? Furthermore, the gospel of Thomas only contains quotes, so I cannot see how that collection is historical. Gnostic books are unreliable, for most are dated in the 2nd century, and are wild speculations that are unabashedly more spiritual and less historical.
Heretic,
It is worthless to make any agrue with you any further, I even could correct the information...but you chose to disrespect and laugh at what we believed in with your philosophy perspective. This quote isnt show this I am losing...you are putting yourself into countless of debate, I got important things in my life than breathing out words...I can correct but your timing isnt my timing...I am thankful toward God for great things in my life in time of good and bad. And I see why you are quoting this why people are ignoring your posting...maybe they arent interest in your debate. And two things I can tell you, leave me alone and I will leave you alone, second May Lord bless your soul.
PS You are no longer as concern to me....
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Frisky Feline
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Banjo said:
Wow. I like Banjo's quotes. That's how I feel about it! But one thing is that I do feel that there is a superior being out there for sure. However, it is not a GOD itself. The superior being may be the one who created the earth and universities to allow us human, animals and any other kinds of creatures to do on our own as a expertiment. Like we all are in a rat labs. Thats what I feel these days. Sometimes NOT.
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