Deafness and pet peeves about society

[naisho]

I think I know where he is going with this. If you think about the survival of the fittest (Darwin theory of evolution) then the genetics that have the highest survival rates are the ones that produce the most offsprings and thus are the dominate ones in that group. The idea is deafness is a defect that would through natural selection "die off".

However there are several problems with using the theory of evolution for conditions like deafness, blindness and other "disorders". The assumption is that genetics is the sole cause of these disorders. This is not true. To an extent, genetics pay a part in deciding who is more susceptible and how likely it is that your body may develop a disorder of some kind. However genetics is only the blueprint on which a body is built. There are so many stages of construction where something can go awry (or not according to the plan). And then there are the environmental issues that create conditions that are perhaps not ideal for a fetus to develop. After all that, you still have illnesses, accidents, and even intentional injury.

That was my 2 1/2 cent contribution!

I see where he's going about it too.

He has a general albiet basic understanding/point in mind and with Darwin's Natural selection theory, it fits the picture in conditions pertaining to occurrences in nature. Species with less desirable conditions do not and might not survive as adequately as those most suited for their ecology. Ex, everyone with a decent head on their shoulders would rationalize a deaf antelope is more likely to get caught than a hearing antelope on the African savannah. If there were any deaf group of antelope, they would have been easy prey for any hyenas, lions, cheetahs (no pun intended ) roaming the area and have became since then long extinct (hence naturally selected).

However he's not taking into account for the human population, we currently don't follow the theory of natural selection -- at least not precisely. We have conditions such as herd immunity, and are totally unbalanced in the Hardy-Weinberg equation.

I don't think it's as easy to label human species as capable of "evolving" these days. The pool is too diverse with no attempts to maintain homology unless we talk about groups like KKK, Nazi, etc.

 

[naisho]

I'd like to add it's just a minor gripe, but it's not about evolution when we are talking about one species getting wiped out because of a disorder or some kind of 'defect' about them. That is more in line with natural selection. Evolution pertains to changes over time, where the positive traits stay and remain in the pool.

Just a small 'politically correct' gripe coming from a biology background on this, just so you know if people intend to get serious about discussing evolutionary genetics pertaining to hearing.

 

[Bottesini]

I see where he's going about it too.

He has a general albiet basic understanding/point in mind and with Darwin's Natural selection theory, it fits the picture in conditions pertaining to occurrences in nature. Species with less desirable conditions do not and might not survive as adequately as those most suited for their ecology. Ex, everyone with a decent head on their shoulders would rationalize a deaf antelope is more likely to get caught than a hearing antelope on the African savannah. If there were any deaf group of antelope, they would have been easy prey for any hyenas, lions, cheetahs (no pun intended ) roaming the area and have became since then long extinct (hence naturally selected).

However he's not taking into account for the human population, we currently don't follow the theory of natural selection -- at least not precisely. We have conditions such as herd immunity, and are totally unbalanced in the Hardy-Weinberg equation.

I don't think it's as easy to label human species as capable of "evolving" these days. The pool is too diverse with no attempts to maintain homology unless we talk about groups like KKK, Nazi, etc.

He also fails to take into account that there are many causes of congenital deafness that are not genetic.

 

[Bottesini]

I'd like to add it's just a minor gripe, but it's not about evolution when we are talking about one species getting wiped out because of a disorder or some kind of 'defect' about them. That is more in line with natural selection. Evolution pertains to changes over time, where the positive traits stay and remain in the pool.

Just a small 'politically correct' gripe coming from a biology background on this, just so you know if people intend to get serious about discussing evolutionary genetics pertaining to hearing.

Both my husband and I have deafness going back generations. That must mean it is a positive trait.

 

[Cheetah]

I see where he's going about it too.

I don't think it's as easy to label human species as capable of "evolving" these days. The pool is too diverse with no attempts to maintain homology unless we talk about groups like KKK, Nazi, etc.

I intentionally did not include that aspect in my post. Bigoted groups can thin themselves out of existence for all I care. It is our diversity that makes us better, stronger, more likely to survive. We simply need everyone.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I'd like to add it's just a minor gripe, but it's not about evolution when we are talking about one species getting wiped out because of a disorder or some kind of 'defect' about them. That is more in line with natural selection. Evolution pertains to changes over time, where the positive traits stay and remain in the pool.

Just a small 'politically correct' gripe coming from a biology background on this, just so you know if people intend to get serious about discussing evolutionary genetics pertaining to hearing.

If we're still here, then I'm guessing deafness is a positive trait?

 

[audiodef]

Interestingly, nobody seems to have gotten my point, which has nothing to do with scientific theories about survival of the fittest.

So to recap, my very positive and complimentary point was this: When you think about it, any deaf person who does more than eat, sleep and poop has come further than any non-disabled person who did the same thing.

 

[Grummer]

oh i see, my post got removed, i guess i got the wrong end of the stick, sorry about that

 

[naisho]

Yep, deafness can be a good trait in the future. It's not impossible!

Unrealistic Sci-fi movie: Picture some 20 years from now when some kind warfare using sound. Hearing people dying left and right, can't reproduce. Deaf people continue to live through the deaths of everyone else.

Death of hearing people led to the evolution of mankind, living without hearing. (This is all assuming they reproduce genetically deaf children of course, but simple analogy here)

 

[Bottesini]

Interestingly, nobody seems to have gotten my point, which has nothing to do with scientific theories about survival of the fittest.

So to recap, my very positive and complimentary point was this: When you think about it, any deaf person who does more than eat, sleep and poop has come further than any non-disabled person who did the same thing.

oh i see, my post got removed, i guess i got the wrong end of the stick, sorry about that

Did you Grummer? Looks like he just called us all stupid.

I believe Cheetah brought this one in and we are required to be nice.

(Let's see if they remove this post.)

 

[audiodef]

I would prefer to think of people as smart as my first choice rather than as my last. Communication involves clarification if misunderstandings occur.

Come to think of it, much of my frustration with society comes from wanting to believe that people are smart and being continually proven wrong. Not on this thread. I'm just chatting about my general experience and thoughts. ;-)

 

[audiodef]

Unrealistic Sci-fi movie: Picture some 20 years from now when some kind warfare using sound. Hearing people dying left and right, can't reproduce. Deaf people continue to live through the deaths of everyone else.

Death of hearing people led to the evolution of mankind, living without hearing. (This is all assuming they reproduce genetically deaf children of course, but simple analogy here)

I would actually like to see that movie, even though the science is half wrong. Acoustic weapons don't necessarily work via debiliating, high-frequency sounds. They also work by extremely high sound pressure waves at very low frequencies (below 20 Hz, the minimum normal threshold of hearing). Low frequency acoustic weapons cause people, regardless of hearing, to suffer from nerve-wracking cramps.

I was thinking of programming a really nasty sound into one of my synths (one in particular puts out a lot of low frequencies I have to filter out in the final mix) composed of 16 simultaneous, slightly detuned sine waves, played as low as I can get it to play.

 

[Bottesini]

I would prefer to think of people as smart as my first choice rather than as my last. Communication involves clarification if misunderstandings occur.

Come to think of it, much of my frustration with society comes from wanting to believe that people are smart and being continually proven wrong. Not on this thread. I'm just chatting about my general experience and thoughts. ;-)

The main error made in life situations is to under estimate the intelligence of your opponent.

 

[Cheetah]

Did you Grummer? Looks like he just called us all stupid.

I believe Cheetah brought this one in and we are required to be nice.

(Let's see if they remove this post.)

I did, but I won't ask anyone to be anything other than yourselves. Just fyi- AudioDef is the genuine article, he comes here with who he is and no pretense. I don't always agree with him, but part of his charm is his openness about his opinions and willingness to consider others opinions. He has a very unique view of the word which I respect. I am hoping everyone will give him a chance to see why we love being here on AD.

 

[Bottesini]

I did, but I won't ask anyone to be anything other than yourselves. Just fyi- AudioDef is the genuine article, he comes here with who he is and no pretense. I don't always agree with him, but part of his charm is his openness about his opinions and willingness to consider others opinions. He has a very unique view of the word which I respect. I am hoping everyone will give him a chance to see why we love being here on AD.

I won't bother him.

 

[sallylou]

Wirelessly posted (droid)

Arrogance doesn't win friends and influence people. Just saying. Believing that one has superior to others is narcissistic and delusional. If audiodef did not mean to communicate that he failed and only made it worse by saying we're disabled. I don't need patronizing BS. Really!

 

[Jazzberry]

I'm not here to study anyone. I'm deaf, too. I just enjoy thinking and I'm hoping to relate to other deaf people in ways that are meaningful to me.

I'm also very interested in improving life for deaf people. Whether or not you know this, most of us are either very sheltered or have an unreasonable amount of crap to deal with by an accident of birth that in no way effects our intellectual capacity except for how society denies us access to that capacity.

You know, I was thinking more about the question of whether I'm here to "study" people. The answer is still no, but now that it was brought up, life is a bit boring for me without studying it. I prefer to examine myself, others and society and use my brain to come up with ways in which things could be made better. Step one in "making it better" is always figuring out what's wrong with it as it is.

I get what you are saying. Some forums seem to be one of the few places where its OK to have intellectual conversations as its not fashionable at the moment.

 

[Banjo]

Wirelessly posted (droid)

Arrogance doesn't win friends and influence people. Just saying. Believing that one has superior to others is narcissistic and delusional. If audiodef did not mean to communicate that he failed and only made it worse by saying we're disabled. I don't need patronizing BS. Really!

Well said.

 

[Jazzberry]

<snip>

And when I explain that I'm HoH I get a few people saying, "you speak really well for a deaf person." bit too. But, once in a great while - when I'm really cheesed off I'd reply, "well, I suppose that's to be expected since I've also been told that I'm smarter than 80% of the population, which I assume - includes you."

Probably not the best way to "win friends and influence people", but I would love to have seen those people's facial expressions right after you said that.

 

[audiodef]

I did, but I won't ask anyone to be anything other than yourselves. Just fyi- AudioDef is the genuine article, he comes here with who he is and no pretense. I don't always agree with him, but part of his charm is his openness about his opinions and willingness to consider others opinions. He has a very unique view of the word which I respect. I am hoping everyone will give him a chance to see why we love being here on AD.

Thanks, dude. That made me smile.