Deaf view on a CI kid... its a bummer..

[Audiofuzzy]

Fuzzy posted in another thread about how deaf parents are lazy for not giving their deaf children an option for an implant. Since when in this world that we all must be hearing?

I only mirrored what you wrote first, honey, about the hearing parents.

----------------------------CHERI-----------------------------------
Most hearing parents are too lazy to spare the time and day to learn sign language as another form of communication with their child. They always seem to find the easy way out as having their child to reply on speech only because of that, that's what kind of language of communication they use in the household.

What you just did here, Cheri, by taking my reply to YOURS out of context, you created disgusting, filthy, manipulative lie that serves nobody but only further confuses the deaf community on the CI subject, and causes more division on both sides.
{Mod Edit: Unneccessary slander/comment removed--~RR}

And just to make things clear - I never said anybody MUST be hearing.


Fuzzy

 

[jillio]

Well fuzzy, there is a bit of a difference. All hearing parents, unless have no hands or are cognitively impaired from a brain injury that impairs their spatial abilities, can learn sign language. Not all deaf parents can learn to speak.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

That is absolutely NOT the point Jillio. if you care to see the other thread, read the WHOLE thing- first Cheri post, then my reply to her post - you will see why I replied the way I did. I had a reason to mirror her obnoxious post.

Taking it out of the context like that, and making it look like it was ME who came up with is - is filthy manipulative lie.

I am not afraid to back up my words, nor admit I was wrong, or apologize- but what Cheri here did is just dirty.

Please stick to the fact which is - my reply was to Cheri's reply, and the intention of MY reply was to show that a hearing parent is no worse or better than the deaf parent. That actually the same opinion can go both ways.

Also, please see my response to that here:

Quote:
What if the deaf parents were unable to develop spoken language???

There is plenty of other people who can help - perhaps some hearing family members, and certainly friends, neighbours, professionals can help.
By the same token if the hearing parents have no gift for sign language , they still can provide deaf enviroment without learning to sign themselves.

THAT'S the whole, true story. Not what Cheri did.

BTW it's also doesn't matter - BECAUSE what Cheri wrote about hearing parents IS in the first place offensive. I for one, don't think a hearing parent is REQUIRED to learn sign language.

The ability to sign in no way equal "good parenting", period.

A hearing parent can find OTHER ways of succesful loving communication with his deaf child.
My parents never signed, but they went to great lenghts to speak to us slowly, with exaggerated lip movement to make lipreading easier for us, and they were always ready and patient to write things down. And while I never signed myself, my brother did, and never in my life I heard him complainign about our parents not signing. If he did, he never told me. In fact he was the one person who, if wanted, could teach our parents to sign, but he never did it. he never wanted to teach me! he wanted me to speak. myself, and to him.

And while I do see it is better to learn sign language for the sake of convenience, being able to sign to your child doesn't neccessary mean LOVING your child. So what if some hearing parent has learned to sign if is an abusive parent otherwise, beats his child and emotionally abuses it?

Everyone should start using a bit of common sense.
And to stop insulting hearing parents who just want the best for their children.


Fuzzy

 

[Cloggy]

.......... And most of you think that the earliest the child is implant would most likely show higher level of language development than those who are not implant.

No, higher that those implanted at later age. And then we talk about speech. Not communication.
Nobody, certainly not me, has ever said that a deaf child growing up without CI will have less communication skills. That is your interpretation.
What has been said is that when there is a wish for the child to be able to hear, and communicate by listning and speaking, a lot of possibilities are lost the longer you wait.

..........I know for fact the early you focuses on your child's language and communication development such as sign and spoken language they will have a higher language development on track. Hell sign language is good for those to communicate across a football field or talk to someone down the block or in the Library.

Agreed..... so imagine when the child also can hear....
Nobody is questionning how beautiful and practical sign is. It is a great language. We still use it because it is convenient at times.
But in this world the advantage of speaking over distance, through windows etc... is easily surpassed by the possibility to listen to someone. (When you have a box in both hands, when you are in another room, etc.)

..........Supposed if the cochlear implant isn't working for the child, What are you gonna do? Keep going for the implant until something picks up? That's non-sense. Cochlear implant isn't for everyone, it all depending upon individual.

That's one of those non-sense arguments... Why would CI suddenly fail. And what would be the problem learning sign later in life. Many children and adults had to do that and did great.
CI is not for everyone. Nobody said so, so why bring it up.?

..........I hate the fact when they grow up feeling like their parents are trying to make them something they are not; they want to make them appear to be hearing. What is it to grieve? Being deaf is a gift, just like any new born that is born in this world is also a gift. Parents are supposed to be primary teachers, not trying to "fix" a child into being someone else.

You are assuming to much. Why would a child with CI feel like something they are not? Because, they might feel deaf and hearing, which they are. They might be able to connect to both worlds...
They will be grateful to their parents for all the possibilities they had.

But to go as far as to say "Being deaf is a gift." that is stretching it.
I know that one can be perfectly fine, happy etc being deaf, but in the long end, one still lacks a sense.
And I'm sure one compensates the loss of the sense by developing the other senses better.
In the end, deafness is still accepted.

..........In this world, You want to give your child the option of speaking not hearing. learning to speak is not as frustrating as not learning to speak in the real world.

That's all I gona say for right now.

And that is a projection of your growing up deaf, without able to hear. TAking Lotte as an example, she's deaf and she can hear. Learning to speak is NOT frustration to her. Remember... she can hear. You could not, so the comparison is not valid.

But still...

Why can you not see the deaf child as a child that can hear?

 

[Cloggy]

........... Cloggy, u put so much value on being able to hear and expect us to have the same values. Some of us dont..

SHel, you put so much value in being able not to hear. Why would you want to take the opportunity to hear away from deaf children. Just because you are deaf, they have to stay deaf??

..........If the hearing world had shown respect for ASL instead of forcing us to use spoken language only and not put us down as retarded or whatever, maybe there wouldnt be so much anger, wouldnt there be?

The hearing world is indifferent to sign. Like the Chinese world is indifferent to English, or Dutch

It has nothing to do with allowing a deaf child to be able to hear.

 

[Cloggy]

If hearing parents are expected to have the same respect from everyone for implanting their children, then Deaf parents have just as much right to the same if they decide not to implant their children. It goes both ways...

Stop blaming deaf people for everything. Man!

Neecy is a woman.... but apart from that:

The discussion is (not yet) about the decision to implant or not, that is up to the parents. The discussion is about how Deaf people view children with CI..
Instead of being supportive about being able to hear, it is assumed that it will not help, the child will resent it etc...
Saying that long enough to a child with CI, and it will believe it, and it will become true.

It's great that you are happy and comfortable with your own deafness, but that's not a good reason to deny sound to a child.

And even with CI, a child can learn signlanguage. So, what's the reasoning of deaf parents for not providing hearign to their child.?
The child would be able to grow up signing and speaking. Whio would withhold that opportunity from a child?
Or it it just because the child HAS to experience the silent world first.... so much for opportunities...

 

[Cloggy]

If hearing parents are expected to have the same respect from everyone for implanting their children, then Deaf parents have just as much right to the same if they decide not to implant their children. It goes both ways...

I'm surprised you seem to feel that someone is suggesting Deaf parents should not have the right to decide against a CI. Maybe I missed a post, but I haven't seen anyone get angry over someone not being implanted.

Perhaps it is time to start doing that.
After all, any child is able to learn sign ans speech, so refusing the deaf child the ability to hear, has nothing to do with communication within the family. It is about restricting possibilities, and normally that is regarded as a bad thing.

 

[Cloggy]

Check out the other threads. Not only are deaf parents who decide not to implant bashed, but hearing parents who decide not to implant are bashed, as well.

No they are not... as much as you would like to believe it.

 

[Cloggy]

The Deaf communtiy is in no danger of disappearing just because technology has advanced. To even think that is ridiculas.

Yes it is.
More and more children are getting implants,
More and more HOH that loose their hearing are choosing CI,
More and more late-deafened adults choose CI...

Sounds to me that there are fewer and fewer people choose for deafness. Hence, fewer people into Deaf community.

(And that is not counting Deaf people that chose CI and then got rejected from that community..)

Sorry, but in the developed world, Deaf culture is getting smaller and smaller.

There must be Deaf communities that are growing in countries where CI is not affordable yet.

But when hearing people claim that the only objection of the Deaf community to CI is the fear that their culture will disappear it gives them one more way to manipulate the rear of those hearing parents of deaf children. "See, the Deaf community doesn't care about your child. They are only worried about their culture disappearing. We are the ones that truly care about your deaf child, because we want to make him like all the little hearing kiddies in the world. Don't worry if he doesn't quite make it....a little bit of hearing and speech are still better than none."

 

[Cloggy]

I only mirrored what you wrote first, honey, about the hearing parents.





What you just did here, Cheri, by taking my reply to YOURS out of context, you created disgusting, filthy, manipulative lie that serves nobody but only further confuses the deaf community on the CI subject, and causes more division on both sides.
{Mod Edit: Previous 'quote' was removed--~RR}

And just to make things clear - I never said anybody MUST be hearing.


Fuzzy

Yes, funny how these kind of remarks are given in one direction, but ignored when they are bounced back... .Then, suddenly it is completely wrong...
Love it...

 

[shel90]

That is absolutely NOT the point Jillio. if you care to see the other thread, read the WHOLE thing- first Cheri post, then my reply to her post - you will see why I replied the way I did. I had a reason to mirror her obnoxious post.

Taking it out of the context like that, and making it look like it was ME who came up with is - is filthy manipulative lie.

I am not afraid to back up my words, nor admit I was wrong, or apologize- but what Cheri here did is just dirty.

Please stick to the fact which is - my reply was to Cheri's reply, and the intention of MY reply was to show that a hearing parent is no worse or better than the deaf parent. That actually the same opinion can go both ways.

Also, please see my response to that here:


THAT'S the whole, true story. Not what Cheri did.

BTW it's also doesn't matter - BECAUSE what Cheri wrote about hearing parents IS in the first place offensive. I for one, don't think a hearing parent is REQUIRED to learn sign language.

The ability to sign in no way equal "good parenting", period.

A hearing parent can find OTHER ways of succesful loving communication with his deaf child.
My parents never signed, but they went to great lenghts to speak to us slowly, with exaggerated lip movement to make lipreading easier for us, and they were always ready and patient to write things down. And while I never signed myself, my brother did, and never in my life I heard him complainign about our parents not signing. If he did, he never told me. In fact he was the one person who, if wanted, could teach our parents to sign, but he never did it. he never wanted to teach me! he wanted me to speak. myself, and to him.

And while I do see it is better to learn sign language for the sake of convenience, being able to sign to your child doesn't neccessary mean LOVING your child. So what if some hearing parent has learned to sign if is an abusive parent otherwise, beats his child and emotionally abuses it?

Everyone should start using a bit of common sense.
And to stop insulting hearing parents who just want the best for their children.


Fuzzy

So what do u say to those deaf kids who have no oral language skills and rely on ASL only who beg to be put in the dorms or to stay at school longer. Those who say that nobody talks to them at their home..not their parents, their siblings nor the neighborhood kids? After years and years of these children begging their parents to learn sign language only to get , "later" constantly? Are those parents not lazy nor selfish?

 

[Cheri]

I only mirrored what you wrote first, honey, about the hearing parents.[/size]

What you just did here, Cheri, by taking my reply to YOURS out of context, you created disgusting, filthy, manipulative lie that serves nobody but only further confuses the deaf community on the CI subject, and causes more division on both sides.
{Mod Edit: Previous 'quote' was removed--~RR}

And just to make things clear - I never said anybody MUST be hearing.


Fuzzy

I made a mistake and I apologized, I thought you said something about "implanting" I just double checked the post and made an error on what you stated.

I did not lie on purpose. It could happen to anyone with mis-reading, so chill out and have a heart. Gee at least I apologized.

 

[shel90]

SHel, you put so much value in being able not to hear. Why would you want to take the opportunity to hear away from deaf children. Just because you are deaf, they have to stay deaf??


The hearing world is indifferent to sign. Like the Chinese world is indifferent to English, or Dutch

It has nothing to do with allowing a deaf child to be able to hear.

I have never said that parents shouldnt implant their children, did I? I am responding to the comments that deaf parents are too lazy to implant their children.

No, but if people can be respectful to deaf people's needs and understand that many of us rely on our eyes for visual communication instead of telling us we are stupid, retarded, dumb and many more. That would be a nice change from the hearing world..they dont have to learn ASL but respect it.

 

[shel90]

SHel, you put so much value in being able not to hear. Why would you want to take the opportunity to hear away from deaf children. Just because you are deaf, they have to stay deaf??


The hearing world is indifferent to sign. Like the Chinese world is indifferent to English, or Dutch

It has nothing to do with allowing a deaf child to be able to hear.

I have never said that parents shouldnt implant their children, did I? I am responding to the comments that deaf parents are too lazy to implant their children.

No, but if people can be respectful to deaf people's needs and understand that many of us rely on our eyes for visual communication instead of telling us we are stupid, retarded, dumb and many more. That would be a nice change from the hearing world..they dont have to learn ASL but respect it. And that the parents of deaf kids respect that ASL is critical for language development during the early years.

 

[Cheri]

BTW it's also doesn't matter - BECAUSE what Cheri wrote about hearing parents IS in the first place offensive. I for one, don't think a hearing parent is REQUIRED to learn sign language.

Well, I do think hearing parents should be able to use sign for another method of communication, When I watched "Sound and Fury" I did not see at least one hearing parents or implanted child knows any method of signs at all. That's a big disppointment to me. It's not even offensive for what I said either. I think is important is that as soon as a parents finds out their child has a hearing loss of any type that is permanent they should learn sign language, to save the poor child of the frustration of misunderstanding what is being said. That's why they have various of communication that hearing parents can use to communicate with their child.

 

[shel90]

No, higher that those implanted at later age. And then we talk about speech. Not communication.
Nobody, certainly not me, has ever said that a deaf child growing up without CI will have less communication skills. That is your interpretation.
What has been said is that when there is a wish for the child to be able to hear, and communicate by listning and speaking, a lot of possibilities are lost the longer you wait.

Agreed..... so imagine when the child also can hear....
Nobody is questionning how beautiful and practical sign is. It is a great language. We still use it because it is convenient at times.
But in this world the advantage of speaking over distance, through windows etc... is easily surpassed by the possibility to listen to someone. (When you have a box in both hands, when you are in another room, etc.)

That's one of those non-sense arguments... Why would CI suddenly fail. And what would be the problem learning sign later in life. Many children and adults had to do that and did great.

I have seen what can happen if the kids learn sign later on if they werent able to benefit from their CIs. They become delayed in language. That is something I am trying to tell everyone here. Learning sign later wont solve the literacy problems. One doesnt just learn ASL at the age of 7 and then start reading and writing right away. Pls..if u are going to talk about something like that, try teaching children who are severely language delayed and see how hard it is for those kids.
CI is not for everyone. Nobody said so, so why bring it up.?

You are assuming to much. Why would a child with CI feel like something they are not? Because, they might feel deaf and hearing, which they are. They might be able to connect to both worlds...
They will be grateful to their parents for all the possibilities they had.

But to go as far as to say "Being deaf is a gift." that is stretching it.
I know that one can be perfectly fine, happy etc being deaf, but in the long end, one still lacks a sense.
And I'm sure one compensates the loss of the sense by developing the other senses better.
In the end, deafness is still accepted.

And that is a projection of your growing up deaf, without able to hear. TAking Lotte as an example, she's deaf and she can hear. Learning to speak is NOT frustration to her. Remember... she can hear. You could not, so the comparison is not valid.

But still...

Why can you not see the deaf child as a child that can hear?

We all see things differently. U value hearing more than anything. Some of us grew up without hearing and have learned to value other things more than hearing. If other people chose not to implant their children, that is their decision just as it was your decision to implant Lotte.

 

[shel90]

Neecy is a woman.... but apart from that:

The discussion is (not yet) about the decision to implant or not, that is up to the parents. The discussion is about how Deaf people view children with CI..
Instead of being supportive about being able to hear, it is assumed that it will not help, the child will resent it etc...
Saying that long enough to a child with CI, and it will believe it, and it will become true.

It's great that you are happy and comfortable with your own deafness, but that's not a good reason to deny sound to a child.

And even with CI, a child can learn signlanguage. So, what's the reasoning of deaf parents for not providing hearign to their child.?
The child would be able to grow up signing and speaking. Whio would withhold that opportunity from a child?
Or it it just because the child HAS to experience the silent world first.... so much for opportunities...

Oh and it has been said that if a child gets implanted, the family has to work hard to provide spoken language at the home as much as they can so the child can benefit from the CIs. Do deaf parents use spoken language in the home most of the time?

 

[neecy]

Oh and it has been said that if a child gets implanted, the family has to work hard to provide spoken language at the home as much as they can so the child can benefit from the CIs. Do deaf parents use spoken language in the home most of the time?

Considering that the vast majority of deaf children are born to hearing parents, this shouldn't be an issue. If a child born to a deaf family was implanted, I'd assume that interaction with hearing people/speech therapists etc would be a requirement to excel.

 

[shel90]

Considering that the vast majority of deaf children are born to hearing parents, this shouldn't be an issue. If a child born to a deaf family was implanted, I'd assume that interaction with hearing people/speech therapists etc would be a requirement to excel.

Well, then why do we see so many children with CIs who have little or no oral skills coming to our school? All of them are from hearing families.


That is up to the deaf family. I am sure there are some deaf families that do all of the things u mentioned and if it makes them happy, great. However there are many deaf families that dont believe in implanting their own deaf children so why should they be bashed? I agree that hearing families shouldnt be bashed for implanting their children.

Only problem is I have is denying the children sign language due to the belief that it would impede their oral language development. I see too many cases where the children became so delayed in language development due to that reason. That is my beef.

 

[Cheri]

Only problem is I have is denying the children sign language due to the belief that it would impede their oral language development. I see too many cases where the children became so delayed in language development due to that reason. That is my beef.

I'm with you on this all the way, I believe that they're have a higher language development if they use both signs and speech. I've seen a lot of people in the deaf community who are skilled readers and writers without any reliance on sound they hear.