Deaf schools or mainstream?

You know what would be a great idea? Maybe requiring that kids attend Deaf Schools/programs so that they have a concrete educational base, and THEN gradually transition to mainstream schools.

I get what you are saying--build a good foundation first before sending them out into the bigger "real world" of mainstreamed public schools. However, I have also seen the flaws in this approach--mostly regarding social issues, but some academic issues as well. Of course, for some kids, a deaf school may be the only place where they can build those basic skills and foundation for later learning--if they aren't getting it in "regular school" then they definitely need to get it somewhere--building the basics is VERY important for later learning.

The "scope and sequence" of learning is pretty basic: first they MUST be able to communicate(HOWEVER possible), then they must become literate(reading and writing are the basis for learning further skills), and then they learn everything else using those skills. A child who learns to communicate, read well, and write well(in their native language, whatever it may be) can then go on to learn more and more about the world through that language. Some kids do well in more than one language--that is awesome--but all kids need a "first language" to build all of the later skills on.

Now, when it comes to children in America, the issue is: which language will be their "first language". The majority of American language is English, some use American Sign Language(but most are literate in the English language), and there is a large population in America whose first language is Spanish. if children aren't taught to be literate(read and write) in English, they will have a very hard time in America. Living in America and not knowing English(through reading and writing) can be done, but it is an immensely difficult task. So, when it comes to deaf children in America, I think we would all agree that, no matter what language they use in addition to English, they need to be very literate in the English language (reading and writing) in order to be successful in America, right? This is NOT about speaking English, this is about reading and writing in English--the basis of education in American schools.

So, since the goal is to get American deaf children to be literate in English (reading and writing), that is the focus of which school works best for each child. If a child successfully learns to read and write well in the English language, then that will be the basis of further learning in American schools. I like the saying: at first they learn to read, then they read to learn. It is so true! If a deaf child can become very literate through public schools, then it may work for them. If not, then they need whatever resources possible in order to help them become literate. If a deaf child's first language is ASL, then they need to be taught to read and write English through ASL--I don't know exactly how that is done, but obviously it works--many people who are ASL only are also very literate in English(read and write well in English). Kudos to those who learned to do that--it must be difficult to learn one language when reading and writing when it is not your first language. For kids whose first language is ASL, it probably is hard to find a good program in American public schools--there are some, but maybe deaf schools would be a much better option. Maybe for those kids, starting at a deaf school is the best option. BUT--then there are deaf/hh kids whose first language is English--IF they have good access to English and IF they communicate well through English as they are learning to become literate in English--then maybe they would do fine in American public schools(just based on becoming literate and learning through English). There are a lot of deaf/hh kids who become very literate through public schools--they learn to read well, they learn to write well, and they learn to further their skills through their English literacy. Academically, these kids may do okay in public schools--at least in the beginning.

Now, here is where change may be needed--middle and high school. For the kids who grew up in deaf schools, I am not so sure how well mainstreaming into public schools goes--it seems that it would be like dropping them into a foreign country in some ways. Adolescence is such a volatile time in a child's life--I am not so sure that it is such a great time to make such a drastic change. Yes, they will have to eventually integrate into the "real world", but I can see how difficult it would be for a child to do this at such a tough life stage. Yes, maybe they will have more opportunities--maybe they need advanced classes or things not available at deaf schools, but they are probably in for a shock--they may not get the services they need, and they may have issues socially. Still, it works for some--more power to them. Now let's look at the other perspective--deaf kids who did well mainstreaming when younger--they became very literate in English and they did fairly well academically when younger. They may have even done okay socially when younger--maybe being "different" wasn't a big deal when they were in elementary school. But then they hit adolescence--the social structure of cliques and groups begins to form, and they often begin to feel their differences more than they did before. Going into bigger middle schools, and often huge high schools, is an eye-opening experience. Soon, even though they did fine academically in elementary school, they may begin to feel the challenges as the classes get larger, the teachers are less likely to modify things specifically for them, and things just get busier and harder academically. And then the social issues--oh, how the social issues begin to surface during this stage!! I would NEVER want to be that age again--it is SO tough!!!!!! So, for many of the kids who did fine in the mainstream at first, they find themselves lost in the mainstream during middle and high school.

So that is why I am now seeing how the idea of mainstreaming during middle and high school CAN be the WORST time to do so--at least for many kids. If they didn't mainstream before, they are in for a HUGE culture shock--all kids feel this change, but kids who have never been in it before will feel it even harder. And kids who DID mainstream when younger may also have a very hard time adjusting to the changes--it is just a whole different world beyond the shelter of elementary school. I have even noticed this culture shock with kids who went to oral deaf schools first and then mainstreamed later--even though they may be "speaking the language", they still learn that their culture is very different from the mainstream. Plus, they often run into issues when they expect accommodations but are told that they are not all available.

I am not totally against public schools--both my hearing son and deaf/hh daughter have been in them since kindergarten. BUT--I do see how "real world" they are--they are big monstrosities that can literally eat some kids alive!! The older they get, the bigger the institution gets--some kids go through the ropes and come out fine on the other side. With the "sink or swim" attitude in public schools, some kids swim and even rise to the top, and some kids sink--to the bottom--and drop out. And, I guess, most kids just "go with the flow" and end up in the huge stream with all of the other average regular people. My son COULD be "on top"--he is very bright--BUT, he seems to be choosing to just "be average"--he just wants to "fit in". SIGH! There are some kids who really rise to the top--they pass the average group up and keep going. That takes a LOT of ambition and motivation, and not a lot of kids have that. Those who do will be the leaders of the future--and the rest will be the average "joes" who follow along. Hey, average joes can have happy lives, too--there is nothing wrong with being an average joe! BUT--those who fall BELOW average--now those kids have a HARD time ever getting back up off of the ground. For many kids, they fall and they don't get back up. My greatest fear is sending my deaf/hh daughter into that fast flowing stream, only to see her fall and never get back up. I just don't think it is right for her--I think she has a MUCH better chance at a MUCH better future if I let her avoid that stream. I want to get her in a custom-built, made-just-for-her kind of stream, know what I mean? I hope sending her to a deaf school for this part of her education will help her at least become an "average joe" in her OWN stream--and maybe she will even rise to the top of THAT stream!

So this is why I think, for many deaf/hh kids--but NOT ALL--if they can do well in the mainstream at first, then that is fine. If they need the structure and style of a deaf school at first--that is fine. But as they age, the mainstream may not be the best place for many of them--once again--many, NOT ALL. It is such a vulnerable age--adolescence--the teen years--middle and high school. Yes, they will have to face the "real world" as adults, but dropping them into it during this tender stage may be a really bad time to do so. My daughter is doing the opposite of what many from her oral deaf background are doing--she began in the mainstream and did fine, but now she is going to a deaf school for high school. I often wonder, why in the world do the oral deaf schools stop at 8th grade or younger? Why do they seem to think that kids would do well by starting at the oral deaf school but that they need to be mainstreamed as early as possible--no later than high school? Why do there seem to be no oral deaf schools that go through high school? See, when my daughter was younger, we were pretty much shown the two sides--the oral deaf schools and the other deaf schools. At the time, what we saw was kids talking at the oral deaf school and no one talking at the other deaf schools. We didn't see many schools, but this is what we saw back then. At the time, we went with the oral deaf school--my daughter went to preschool there and then mainstreamed into regular public schools beginning in kindergarten. Now, when we look back, my daughter really wishes that she could go to high school with some of those kids back from her preschool days. They are all mainstreaming--most have moved to different cities and are all going to different public schools. So now, she is looking at other deaf schools--the only ones with high schools--what we used to be told were the "other" deaf schools. Now, we see--the division is MUCH less than we were told. Luckily, we discovered one that was a good combination of BOTH sides--my daughter didn't feel so divided--she didn't feel that she had to "choose sides." I hope that this turns out to be the best place for her--it seems like a much better choice than letting her "sink or swim" in the mainstream. I like the customized stream that we found for her--hopefully she will swim well, and rise to the top even! :)
 
You know what would be a great idea? Maybe requiring that kids attend Deaf Schools/programs so that they have a concrete educational base, and THEN gradually transistion to mainstream schools.

gradually transition to mainstreamed programs full time? I dont agree with that idea because of many reasons. What I think would be great is a healthy balance of both...the Deaf kids from the deaf schools take 1 or 2 classes at the nearby public schools ..like a magnet program.

I still dont understand why is it that the desired outcome is for all deaf children to interact with hearing children on a full time basis? Even myself, whom interacted with hearing kids 24/7 from kindergarten to college, I was labelled as socially immature. If the belief is that hearing kids are the better role models for deaf kids, then why did I and many of my deaf friends who grew up mmainstreamed have social/emotional issues? The reason, lack of full access to information and communication among hearing peers therefore retarding our sociol/emotional growth so no, I dont like the idea of mainstreaming deaf children full time. I think a good balance is the answer..half day at a mainstreamed program and half day at the Deaf schools cuz of full access to communication.
 
gradually transition to mainstreamed programs full time? I dont agree with that idea because of many reasons. What I think would be great is a healthy balance of both...the Deaf kids from the deaf schools take 1 or 2 classes at the nearby public schools ..like a magnet program.

I still dont understand why is it that the desired outcome is for all deaf children to interact with hearing children on a full time basis? Even myself, whom interacted with hearing kids 24/7 from kindergarten to college, I was labelled as socially immature. If the belief is that hearing kids are the better role models for deaf kids, then why did I and many of my deaf friends who grew up mmainstreamed have social/emotional issues? The reason, lack of full access to information and communication among hearing peers therefore retarding our sociol/emotional growth so no, I dont like the idea of mainstreaming deaf children full time. I think a good balance is the answer..half day at a mainstreamed program and half day at the Deaf schools cuz of full access to communication.

Yep, I agree! Deaf kids NEED social life and sports (etc) other than mainstream education only. So as you suggested the balance, it could do for those well enough, I believe. Also don't forget the self-esteem, too as one of reasons!
 
Yep, I agree! Deaf kids NEED social life and sports (etc) other than mainstream education only. So as you suggested the balance, it could do for those well enough, I believe. Also don't forget the self-esteem, too as one of reasons!

Yea, my self-esteem was almost destroyed by being mainstreamed full time. I finally built it back from being involved with the Deaf community and that it was ok not to be perfect. I worked so hard to try to be the "perfect" hearing person in which I constantly failed to meet which as a result, destroyed my self-esteem. I DO not want to experience that again and looking back, there was no reason for it.
 
Yea, my self-esteem was almost destroyed by being mainstreamed full time. I finally built it back from being involved with the Deaf community and that it was ok not to be perfect. I worked so hard to try to be the "perfect" hearing person in which I constantly failed to meet which as a result, destroyed my self-esteem. I DO not want to experience that again and looking back, there was no reason for it.

Hmm! Several friends who attended mainstream schools experienced the same thing, but they made it up at Gallaudet... those said they realized those schools couldn't provide that so they advised others in the following after that.

So it indeed is that important! It's one of those little parts that I noticed some others in this forum overlooked something else like that. So we need to stress this that to others especially the parents whoever are in deciding which one send their deaf kids to. Yet it depends on the location and individuals like some said before.

I'm glad for you shel90 making it up. ;)
 
Yea, my self-esteem was almost destroyed by being mainstreamed full time. I finally built it back from being involved with the Deaf community and that it was ok not to be perfect. I worked so hard to try to be the "perfect" hearing person in which I constantly failed to meet which as a result, destroyed my self-esteem. I DO not want to experience that again and looking back, there was no reason for it.

Ah, yes--that "perfect achieving student" image--that is the image that MOST kids are expected to live up to in America--hearing or not. Wow, we could really go on and on about that--the "status" of star athletes(beginning in Little League!), the kids who get into "prestigious" preschools(and on the track to Ivy league!), the wealthy private prep school students(perfection is the ONLY acceptable way to be), the highly elite process of being chosen by "prestigious" universities(and the pressure on kids to get into the "best" ones). The thing is, most American kids are, let's admit, "average kids". But somehow, being "average" has become "unacceptable"--one must be EXCEPTIONALLY talented to be considered a true achiever. It is really sad--many kids are just not able to live up to these ridiculously unrealistic expectations--many kids do well but do "average"--and they are made to feel as if they are "below average" because they are so far from the "high achievers".

I love my kids more than anything, but I have no problem saying that they perform on, basically, an "average" level in many things. They also have natural passions and talents that they excel in--for them, art and music is their best arena. They may not be star athletes or high academic achievers, but they are very talented when it comes to expressing themselves through art and music. But, in today's society, this is not really valued by many--the best players in specific sports or the students who receive all of the accolades or awards are put up on pedestals--everyone else, the average people, are told that if they had worked harder that they could have been the ones on the pedestals! The truth is, MOST of us are "average"--MOST of us could never get up on those pedestals no matter how hard we tried. It really does hurt a person's self-esteem when they are made to feel that THEIR very best was still not good enough!!

So, those who struggle and still end up "average" should NOT be made to feel that they were "less than perfect." We should definitely give our kids a lot of positive encouragement when they do THEIR very best. If they truly aren't trying their best, then it will show--then we can let them know that we expect more effort. BUT--many kids are working very hard to do their very best--and if the result is "just average achievement"--good for them!! There is NOTHING wrong with that! As long as they gave it THEIR personal "all"! I guess I definitely believe in the saying: "A for effort"! :)

As for deaf/hh kids--their self-esteem is "on the line." It is very important that they are loved and accepted exactly as they are--they should be the best they can be and everyone should love them just as they are. There is a fine line between expecting too much and expecting too little--we should get to know each child to understand what their personal expectations should be. A few will "excel" and a few will "fall below average"--but most will float along in the "average stream" if they are placed in the correct one. The problem is, knowing which is the right stream for each child--and, some need a complete change and redirection midstream, too. If a child is placed in the right environment and they give their full effort, they should do fine--if not, something needs to change. In other words--if a child is not doing well, it is probably a case of "the school is failing the child" instead of "the child is failing school." Either the school needs to make changes or the child needs to find a different school--and that sometimes is one of the most difficult things to do!

All i know is this--kids need to feel good about themselves--as adults, we need to do whatever we can to create an environment for them that allows them to express themselves and to feel good about themselves. Self-esteem and self-worth is really more important that almost anything else. Even adults can relate to that--happy adults usually have a good sense of self and healthy self-esteem, and unhappy people often do not. It all starts in childhood--yes, things happen on the way to adulthood that can reshape our feelings about ourselves, but the foundation of "ME"--the concept of "me, myself, I"--that starts when kids are very young and is built on, or destroyed, as they age. Educational systems can also either build this up or tear this down--and, of course, social systems (family/friends/community) are critical to this process. Self-esteem--maybe the MOST important thing to consider when choosing an educational path for our children! :)
 
I was raise in Mainstream in 1984 until 1992. I made my own decide to transfer to Deaf School in 1992 fall until 2000. I have many bad experience in both mainstream and deaf school. I wasn't proud of it. I don't really like deaf school myself. Because mainstream have a great career for me. I was almost to quit deaf school and transfer to mainstream hearing school. But too late for me now. I wasn't accomplished at Deaf School at all. Deaf School screwed up my life. I didn't visit to deaf school for homecoming or events for long times. I just don't feel like to come. It's very long story. But my friends does missed me so much.
 
But then they hit adolescence--the social structure of cliques and groups begins to form, and they often begin to feel their differences more than they did before. Going into bigger middle schools, and often huge high schools, is an eye-opening experience. Soon, even though they did fine academically in elementary school, they may begin to feel the challenges as the classes get larger, the teachers are less likely to modify things specifically for them, and things just get busier and harder academically. And then the social issues--oh, how the social issues begin to surface during this stage!! I would NEVER want to be that age again--it is SO tough!!!!!! So, for many of the kids who did fine in the mainstream at first, they find themselves lost in the mainstream during middle and high school.
OMG YES!!!!
Deborah, I'm SO glad you understand!!!! My friend and I were actually talking about that tonite. We both (both LD, me hh) had a hell of a time in jr high and high school. Well she was lucky b/c she got to avoid our high school and go to a prep school. (and that's saying something about our high school that it was tougher then her prep school) I do think that a lot of the pro-mainstreamers kind of have their heads up their asses about how awful high school can be. Yes, some dhh kids do really well, BUT it does seem that most of those kids are kids who were prepped for high powered sucess from the start! I have to say that I think a lot of the "sucess" of families who are oral, aren't nessarily due to specific methodologies, but the fact that they are the type of families that REALLY thrive on therapy 24/7. (you know the type of families where its expected that they go to an Ivy League School) I would LOVE to see some of those "pro mainstreamer" types experiance a week of having no friends, of being made fun of b/c of voice quality, of sitting alone in the cafeteria. You really do have the right idea. Because of going to a Deaf School, your daughter might be able to acheive SO MUCH more. It does seem like when someone's happy socially, it has an effect on the rest of their lives too. Like, if you'd sent her to a mainstream school, your daughter could have done OK, but not as good as she could have done at a Deaf School or a school that has a lot of resources for students with disabilites.
 
That's a great point. You know, I see and hear people say all the time that deaf schools are too easy and public schools are more challenging. Since the majority of deaf schools today follow the same curriculum as the public school, I think the whole idea of deaf schools being easier is based on the fact that a deaf child in the mainstream, even with accommodations, has to struggle with access. In the deaf school, access makes comprehension easier. So it is not the curriculum that is easier, it is the access to the curriculum that allows students to learn without struggle.

Majority? What school(s) that don't follow the same curriculum today? Do tell as I want to know. We all should do something about those schools that didn't match the curriculum.

I don't know about present deaf schools but in my time (60's), they do put us few years behind what we should be. Like when I was in 8th grade, I used 6th grade spelling book, etc. Once a sub teacher copied something for English from an old book and a classmate found out that the book is for 9th grade (we were in 5th or 6th grade). Boy! Do we made alot of noises! If we find 9th grade book easy then we should have all the subject books upgraded to 9th grade. All that was in a public school for the Deaf and it was supposed to be oral (or TC with heavy on oral).

I do have more stories to tell but it is sufficent for me to tell you that I was really bored with that school and very angry about it. Education is a big thing to me and still is.
 
Majority? What school(s) that don't follow the same curriculum today? Do tell as I want to know. We all should do something about those schools that didn't match the curriculum.

I don't know about present deaf schools but in my time (60's), they do put us few years behind what we should be. Like when I was in 8th grade, I used 6th grade spelling book, etc. Once a sub teacher copied something for English from an old book and a classmate found out that the book is for 9th grade (we were in 5th or 6th grade). Boy! Do we made alot of noises! If we find 9th grade book easy then we should have all the subject books upgraded to 9th grade. All that was in a public school for the Deaf and it was supposed to be oral (or TC with heavy on oral).

I do have more stories to tell but it is sufficent for me to tell you that I was really bored with that school and very angry about it. Education is a big thing to me and still is.

Actually, I don't know of any Deaf schools that aren't following the public school curriculum, but I assume that some of the Charter Schools don't. However, they are most likely using an advanced curriculum, rather than one that is modified to be easier. I just said "majority" because some people have posted that their deaf school did not use the same curriculum, and I didn't want to make a broad statement that could have been innacurrate.
 
Buffallo, back in the 60's and seventies they automaticly thought that dhh kids were MR, so they dumbed down the curriculum. Plus your program was not a Deaf School.............rather it was one of those regional "magnet" programs for the dhh, housed at a public school.
 
Buffallo, back in the 60's and seventies they automaticly thought that dhh kids were MR, so they dumbed down the curriculum. Plus your program was not a Deaf School.............rather it was one of those regional "magnet" programs for the dhh, housed at a public school.

It is a public school for the deaf - all the students there were deaf or hh. No hearing kids there. Maybe Detroit was so large so there are enough deaf kids to fill a school. Detroit is losing people now.
 
Yes, that's right. There are still a lot of Deaf city schools.....I did not know that Detroit had one though. I know NY does, Boston does, LA does, Newark does. I really think they should bring back the city schools for the Deaf.
 
Yes, that's right. There are still a lot of Deaf city schools.....I did not know that Detroit had one though. I know NY does, Boston does, LA does, Newark does. I really think they should bring back the city schools for the Deaf.

Agreed and replace the education with Bi-Bi approach.
 
Well, uh I mostly prefer mainstream. Mainstream help me so much.
 
Yes, that's right. There are still a lot of Deaf city schools.....I did not know that Detroit had one though. I know NY does, Boston does, LA does, Newark does. I really think they should bring back the city schools for the Deaf.


Some in small town have deaf schools too. Like Wisconsin, Kentucky, and other. In Detroit, Mich don't have deaf school only in Flint, Mich.

Illinois have 2 deaf school in Chicago and small town in Jacksonville close to Springfield.

California's Deaf School available in Riverside and Fremont. California School for the Deaf in Beverley. But it's closed long times ago.

Some State School for the Deaf and Blinds in FSDB and other states. In Indiana have Deaf and Blind separate.
 
Well, I was mainstreamed all my life. It wasn't all that cracked up to be. No support system...I was left to either sink or swim so most of it was spent barely keeping my head above water. Not a healthy way to grow uo, heh?
 
Well, I was mainstreamed all my life. It wasn't all that cracked up to be. No support system...I was left to either sink or swim so most of it was spent barely keeping my head above water. Not a healthy way to grow uo, heh?

Same here except when I was 6th grade, I have to attend to Florida School for Deaf and Blind.
 
Same here except when I was 6th grade, I have to attend to Florida School for Deaf and Blind.

I wish I had gone to a Deaf school but at least I went to Gallaudet. Boy, did I learn about many different things in such a short time than I did in my lifetime.
 
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