Deaf Education - One size does not fit all

loml said:
flip - Raising children period, is not easy. Sorry if you find the statements depressing. Where is the true bi-bi flip? There isn't one. Looks good in the books, but find a real one flip. That is the reality.
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You make me dizzy. First you said raising deaf children not is easy, then you talk about children in general. Please make up your mind. Where do you think Shel is working? In a fantasy school?
loml said:
People on this board profess to support ASL and oral. What tools are you suggesting the oral program use to create a successful oral program? Quit avoiding the question. If you can't be part of the solution, then what part are you?[/COLOR]
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I suggest the oral schools to use bi-bi to create a successful oral program, as findings where oral programs are compared with bi-bi programs shows better results in oral skills for students from bi-bi programs.
loml said:
flip - I did not say baby sign was SEE, I said:
originally posted by loml
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Yes you describe SEE. If you think you have described something else than SEE, you still are making up stuff if you claim baby sign programs don't use ASL both in sign and grammars.

If you happen to visit a true bi-bi program, I am sure you will change your mind based on your questions here.
 
jillio said:
There is nothing easy about raising any child. But there is nothing inherently more difficult about raising a deaf child, either, if you are willing to do what needs to be done from the child's deaf perspective. I find your "oh, the poor parents of a deaf child" perspective extremely discrimionatory toward the deaf child and just another indication that your focus is in the parent and not the child.

Agreed. Baby sign isn't about SEE. But loml is so English based that she sees everything from that perspective. True, it is a mental trap.
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Sure raising a child isn't easy. You are right, it's the "ouch.. deaf child.." perspective that is so unecessary and energy draining for both children and parents, I was thinking about.
 
originally posted by loml

flip - Raising children period, is not easy. Sorry if you find the statements depressing. Where is the true bi-bi flip? There isn't one. Looks good in the books, but find a real one flip. That is the reality.
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flip said:
You make me dizzy. First you said raising deaf children not is easy, then you talk about children in general. Please make up your mind. Where do you think Shel is working? In a fantasy school?
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flip -Raising children is difficult flip. Sorry that you are dizzy.

flip said:
I suggest the oral schools to use bi-bi to create a successful oral program, as findings where oral programs are compared with bi-bi programs shows better results in oral skills for students from bi-bi programs.
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flip - How do you make an oral program successful? What are your ideas?

flip said:
Yes you describe SEE. If you think you have described something else than SEE, you still are making up stuff if you claim baby sign programs don't use ASL both in sign and grammars.
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flip - My definition of SEE is this: ASL signs in English word order, using affixes. Some people like to say a "sign for every word". The baby sign programs, do not teach you a sign for every word, do not use affixes, nor do they sign it in ASL syntax. They voice "Want some (insert sign) (parents says the word) milk.? In my experience, they are not taught by fluent Deaf adults. Search YouTube flip, take a look at how many hearing people are claiming they are using ASL. :roll: Take a look at the book "American Sign Language: A Teacher's Resource Text on Grammer and Culture."

orginally posted by jillio

Agreed. Baby sign isn't about SEE.
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.

flip said:
If you happen to visit a true bi-bi program, I am sure you will change your mind based on your questions here.
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flip- Change my mind about what exactly?
 
flip said:
Sure raising a child isn't easy. You are right, it's the "ouch.. deaf child.." perspective that is so unecessary and energy draining for both children and parents, I was thinking about.
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flip - They are deaf flip.
 
Tousi said:
To attempt to try to see why Loml is rabid about CS and not embracing ASL/English in education and I emphasize educational strategy ONLY. There are pockets, here and there, of deaf extremists in this country and in Canada, people who I have absolutely no time for. My suspicion is that Loml lives within one such pocket of people and if that's the case, well, then......
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That could be a possibility. But, if that's the case, then she is generalizing her opinion from one far left portion of the population. Surely she has encountered more moderate deaf ont his board alone.
 
flip said:
Sure raising a child isn't easy. You are right, it's the "ouch.. deaf child.." perspective that is so unecessary and energy draining for both children and parents, I was thinking about.
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Yeppers.
 
loml said:
originally posted by loml





flip -Raising children is difficult flip. Sorry that you are dizzy.



flip - How do you make an oral program successful? What are your ideas?



flip - My definition of SEE is this: ASL signs in English word order, using affixes. Some people like to say a "sign for every word". The baby sign programs, do not teach you a sign for every word, do not use affixes, nor do they sign it in ASL syntax. They voice "Want some (insert sign) (parents says the word) milk.? In my experience, they are not taught by fluent Deaf adults. Search YouTube flip, take a look at how many hearing people are claiming they are using ASL. :roll: Take a look at the book "American Sign Language: A Teacher's Resource Text on Grammer and Culture."

orginally posted by jillio

.



flip- Change my mind about what exactly?
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And if you were to ask the question in spoken English "Do you want some milk". that is exactly the way you would voice it. However, if you were to ask the same question in ASL, it could easily be done with simply signing "milk" with a questioning look on one's face. So technically, what you have described is bilingual presentation of 2 different languages. And both are correct in syntax and grammar. Therefore, proper ASL has been shown, and proper English has been voiced. Your point, therefore, is moot.

Likewise, your definition of SEE is lacking. There is much more to the mode that what you have described in your definition.

And the reason baby sign does not teach a sign for every word, is that there isn't a sign for every word. There is a sign for every concept in ASL. I thought you said you knew ASL.
 
loml said:
originally posted by loml
flip - How do you make an oral program successful? What are your ideas?
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As I said, add ASL and bi-bi to make an oral program successful.
loml said:
flip- Change my mind about what exactly?
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Your view on ASL and bi-bi education.
 
flip said:
If you happen to visit a true bi-bi program, I am sure you will change your mind based on your questions here.
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Where are the true bi-bi programs? What are the names of the schools and which states are they in?
 
rockdrummer said:
Where are the true bi-bi programs? What are the names of the schools and which states are they in?
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You want to visit a bi-bi school?

Where do you live, and I am sure we can give you some names. Perhaps better to start a new thread on this?
 
flip said:
You want to visit a bi-bi school?

Where do you live, and I am sure we can give you some names. Perhaps better to start a new thread on this?
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Absolutlely. We can come up with names of bi-bi programs. Shel's program and the Indiana School for the Deaf are the first two that come to mind off the top of my head. There are also some charter programs that I have listings for.
 
There aren't nearly enough true bi bi programs in the USA.
 
jillio said:
Absolutlely. We can come up with names of bi-bi programs. Shel's program and the Indiana School for the Deaf are the first two that come to mind off the top of my head. There are also some charter programs that I have listings for.
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Naming schools depends on where one live. My bet is that rockdrummer lives closer to a charter bi-bi program than a state deaf school.
 
rockdrummer said:
That's the point and what I am asking for is the states and names of the schools that you guys would consider true bi-bi programs.
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I've given you two. Do you want the complete listing of charter schools as well? There may not be many to date, but it is the direction we are moving. Any change like this takes time and effort. You can see the opposition to such a change right here onthis board. It is much easier to hang onto outdated and ineffective methodology than it is to admit what iis being done isn't working and institute widespread change.
 
jillio said:
I've given you two. Do you want the complete listing of charter schools as well? There may not be many to date, but it is the direction we are moving. Any change like this takes time and effort. You can see the opposition to such a change right here onthis board. It is much easier to hang onto outdated and ineffective methodology than it is to admit what iis being done isn't working and institute widespread change.
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Hello..I am in AZ so wont be on AD much this week but I wanted to reply to this...

I wonder if it is easier to hang onto outdated methods cuz of money or cuz of the belief of trying to make deaf children as much like hearing children? Or both?
 
shel90 said:
Hello..I am in AZ so wont be on AD much this week but I wanted to reply to this...

I wonder if it is easier to hang onto outdated methods cuz of money or cuz of the belief of trying to make deaf children as much like hearing children? Or both?
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I'd say a little bit of both. As well as some reuctance to say, "Oops...we were wrong all those years!"

Enjoy your visit in AZ!
 
rd, here you go

Deaf Bilingual-Bicultural Charter Schools

let you know that Laurent Clerc Elementary School is listed and was located in Tucson but the address is the former location and moved to Flowing Wells area. LCES folded couple years after moving. They had students that are both deaf and hearing (hearing attended there cuz of deaf sibling or deaf parent)
 
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