Cesar Millan's Depression .

[Jiro]

I'd say unless anyone on this forum works with animals for a living, no one can make generalizations like an expert...all of us should admit we're pretty ignorant on the subject - hence why there's been so many books on the subjects of animal behavior.

for a while - I've..... uh.... rehabilitated big dogs (notice the plural form) as volunteer at one of the largest shelters in NJ so yea I know a thing or two about dogs.

and I am pretty confident to say that I know dogs better than Eater. and you. and no it's not a generalization I'm making. It's a fact.

there are many books out there because they all have different opinions on how they view a dog as and how to train it with different tools. bottom line - it's all about how you view a dog as and lot of people do not like to stick with what works in the first place (thousand years ago) because it's viewed as primitive and barbaric. but you know what I say? what a bunch of pansy ass wussies in their little suburb cocoon. clicker? cage? shock collar? get rid of those. our ancestors didn't have those to work with dogs and neither do herders. that's why 99% of these books on that subject are basically useless. it's all $gimmick$.

what's for sure is that if you view your dog as "my baby" (a human substitution).... it's not gonna work. it creates a dysfunctional relationship between canine and human.

you can actually raise a wolf (a pup of course) as your own as long as you keep in mind that his behavior will be more raw than a regular dog but the concept is pretty much the same. like I said.... the only difference between wolf and dog is that wolf's behavior is more raw. that's all. both dog and wolf are pretty much same - instinct, biology, etc.... because they're from same ancestors....

a wolf will bite you if you touch his food. so will dogs.
a wolf will chase after a prey and kill it. so will dogs.
a wolf will go primal if a bitch in heat is nearby. so will dogs.
a wolf will be able to survive in the wild on its own. so will dogs.

you're not gonna be able to point out any difference between dog and wolf.

wild horse. domesticated horse.
african bee. honey bee.
wild salmon. farm salmon.

they're all same thing. just that they're less aggressive... that's all.

 

[Jiro]

another thing - several years ago, my friend adopted a dog from shelter. it was a rough start. I trained my friend first instead of dog because he needed to be an alpha male and he needed to understand dog. and then we worked on his dog to establish a relationship. he followed my tips and then within a few weeks - it was perfect.

the tips I gave him? it's thousands years old method that our ancestors used to tame dogs. it's similar to what Cesar Millans used too. easy and effective but this only works if you're willing to put much effort and time in it.

that's why a homeless dog with homeless man is much happier than a suburb dog.

 

[dogmom]

I do agree with a lot of what you said, Jiro and appreciate that you are also shelter volunteer - but wolves are behaviorally very different than dogs. As a trainer and someone who has studied behavior and worked with dogs for a long time, I will say this.

"Alpha" as it relates to both wolves and dogs is inaccurate, for different reasons.

There was a study done with wolf pups and dog pups, both taken from parents at same age, raised the same, same interactions/environment, same level of wolf and dog knowledge in both sets of people who raised them,.. wolf pups and dog pups behaved differently in response to humans in tests, and wolf pups became un-manage-able after a certain amount of time.

Now, am not sure of this study here: UMass Amherst Study May Explain Why Wolves are Forever Wild, But Dogs Can Be Tamed | Office of News & Media Relations | UMass Amherst - is the same as the one I originally thought of, but regardless it is an example of the kind of thing I'm describing.

There are also various theories on how the domestic dog came to be today, new thoughts suggest we don't actually know for sure that humans played any part in actively taming wolves or wolf ancestors.

 

[Jiro]

I do agree with a lot of what you said, Jiro and appreciate that you are also shelter volunteer - but wolves are behaviorally very different than dogs. As a trainer and someone who has studied behavior and worked with dogs for a long time, I will say this.

"Alpha" as it relates to both wolves and dogs is inaccurate, for different reasons.

There was a study done with wolf pups and dog pups, both taken from parents at same age, raised the same, same interactions/environment, same level of wolf and dog knowledge in both sets of people who raised them,.. wolf pups and dog pups behaved differently in response to humans in tests, and wolf pups became un-manage-able after a certain amount of time.

Now, am not sure of this study here: UMass Amherst Study May Explain Why Wolves are Forever Wild, But Dogs Can Be Tamed | Office of News & Media Relations | UMass Amherst - is the same as the one I originally thought of, but regardless it is an example of the kind of thing I'm describing.

There are also various theories on how the domestic dog came to be today, new thoughts suggest we don't actually know for sure that humans played any part in actively taming wolves or wolf ancestors.

yes. that's why I said

you can actually raise a wolf (a pup of course) as your own as long as you keep in mind that his behavior will be more raw than a regular dog but the concept is pretty much the same. like I said.... the only difference between wolf and dog is that wolf's behavior is more raw.

it is not impossible but it is very difficult to tame a wild animal and the end result is usually either serious injury or death. notice that in the research link you posted - it only said that wolf pup's critical period of socialization begins at week 2 and week 4 for dog pup.

recall the video of lions and caretaker meeting each other for the first time after several years? nothing happened but... the caretaker still has to tread carefully.

 

[Rio]

another thing - several years ago, my friend adopted a dog from shelter. it was a rough start. I trained my friend first instead of dog because he needed to be an alpha male and he needed to understand dog. and then we worked on his dog to establish a relationship. he followed my tips and then within a few weeks - it was perfect.

the tips I gave him? it's thousands years old method that our ancestors used to tame dogs. it's similar to what Cesar Millans used too. easy and effective but this only works if you're willing to put much effort and time in it.

that's why a homeless dog with homeless man is much happier than a suburb dog.

PM some tips if you may



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[Jiro]

PM some tips if you may

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it depends on your personality and dog's personality. consistency is the key.... otherwise it will not work.

just a leash and treats are all you need to begin training. and also you need to be strong and consistent. you have to take charge. you need to be a leader. you need to have a firm hand and you must view your dog as a dog... not a human baby or a person with a feeling. it's a dog. an animal.

if you are not willing to do that... then I can't help you. once you're ready to accept it.... then we'll just begin walking. walking is the most fundamental stage to establish relationship with a dog. the first and the most important command is NO.

it must be one single word - NO. not "No Sparky!" or "No Sparky No! Bad Boy!" only "NO". because dog is a simpleton. a dog learns a simple association -

"No" means "I should not do it."
"Sparky" means "I should come to you."
"No Sparky" means I should not do it but I should come to you. I'm confused..."

once your dog learns the meaning of "NO".... then we can move to next command like sit, stay, etc.

back to walking part. walking is the most challenging part. consistency and patience are required or it will fail. this is the part where a dog's personality and your personality must be on same level. if you cannot get past the walking phase.... then you'll need to reconsider about the dog and choose one that will best fit with you. an active dog requires an active person and so on. after a week or two of walking together.... then head together to mountain for the weekend and hike all days and camp out there too. this doesn't apply for certain dogs like chihuahuas but alternatively - you can try your local nature trails or beach. I cannot stress this enough - please check your dog after finishing walk for any tick. lyme disease is a bitch. now I have 2 friends in one year who lost their dogs to lyme disease because it was too late to intervene.

that's it! we all have different approaches and opinions on it and I trust that each of us can figure it out as long as we master 3 fundamental things -

1. be strong and consistent
2. master the command - "NO"
3. master the walk

 

[Rio]

it depends on your personality and dog's personality. consistency is the key.... otherwise it will not work.

just a leash and treats are all you need to begin training. and also you need to be strong and consistent. you have to take charge. you need to be a leader. you need to have a firm hand and you must view your dog as a dog... not a human baby or a person with a feeling. it's a dog. an animal.

if you are not willing to do that... then I can't help you. once you're ready to accept it.... then we'll just begin walking. walking is the most fundamental stage to establish relationship with a dog. the first and the most important command is NO.

it must be one single word - NO. not "No Sparky!" or "No Sparky No! Bad Boy!" only "NO". because dog is a simpleton. a dog learns a simple association -

"No" means "I should not do it."
"Sparky" means "I should come to you."
"No Sparky" means I should not do it but I should come to you. I'm confused..."

once your dog learns the meaning of "NO".... then we can move to next command like sit, stay, etc.

back to walking part. walking is the most challenging part. consistency and patience are required or it will fail. this is the part where a dog's personality and your personality must be on same level. if you cannot get past the walking phase.... then you'll need to reconsider about the dog and choose one that will best fit with you. an active dog requires an active person and so on. after a week or two of walking together.... then head together to mountain for the weekend and hike all days and camp out there too. this doesn't apply for certain dogs like chihuahuas but alternatively - you can try your local nature trails or beach. I cannot stress this enough - please check your dog after finishing walk for any tick. lyme disease is a bitch. now I have 2 friends in one year who lost their dogs to lyme disease because it was too late to intervene.

that's it! we all have different approaches and opinions on it and I trust that each of us can figure it out as long as we master 3 fundamental things -

1. be strong and consistent
2. master the command - "NO"
3. master the walk

Sound like most of my research and me working w professional trainers . It doesn't hurt for me to learn more .

What what I am working on is dog socialization. I needed to be more specific , my apologies. I been reading upon that area dog aggression , getting along w other dogs.
At this moment ; baby steps with other dogs .what I mean is taking it step by step

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[Jiro]

Sound like most of my research and me working w professional trainers . It doesn't hurt for me to learn more .

What what I am working on is dog socialization. I needed to be more specific , my apologies. I been reading upon that area dog aggression , getting along w other dogs.
At this moment ; baby steps with other dogs .what I mean is taking it step by step

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for that kind of situation - it is usually best left for people with experience and strong personality to deal with troubled dogs.

dog with aggression and socialization problem - you need to be very keen to watch for any warning sign. my only suggestion for you - be careful and be firm & consistent. master these 3 things listed above. do not be unsure of yourself and give off nervous/anxious energy. your own dog can easily see it from you and will react on it.

that's why I usually always recommend that troubled/tough dogs are best left with experienced people with strong personality.

 

[sonocativo]

VacationGuy,
All dogs learn the same way, that is part of what learning theory is about - organisms will do what is reinforcing for them whether that's a "pit bull", a fish, a frog or a chimp.

Breed or type has nothing to do with whether a dog "needs" <so-called>a harsh/punitive-based training system, or not. My Rotties are considered by some "traditional" trainers to "need" harsh or dominance-based methods, because they are Rotts. That is inaccurate and scientifically unsound.

And, APBT is -NOT an "aggressive dog' - this has been discussed elsewhere

all dogs have the ability to aggress, all dogs bite and all dogs can inflict damage.

Showing you a picture of supposedly "aggressive" types of breeds in that article, is a non-issue.

Breeds do matter, there are working breeds that will please their owners and then there are some that could care less. Try Training a Husky... they are not ones to please their owners. All breeds are different, need different training and some will only learn so much and still they really dont learn.

 

[Rio]

for that kind of situation - it is usually best left for people with experience and strong personality to deal with troubled dogs.

dog with aggression and socialization problem - you need to be very keen to watch for any warning sign. my only suggestion for you - be careful and be firm & consistent. master these 3 things listed above. do not be unsure of yourself and give off nervous/anxious energy. your own dog can easily see it from you and will react on it.

that's why I usually always recommend that troubled/tough dogs are best left with experienced people with strong personality.

I been reading articles, it had new and old methods . The old method is out and in with the new . One was snapping the leash like you do with the reign on a horse, but that is old it create the animal to become more aggressive .

I been working with mine , taking baby steps , I met some dog owners willing to practice with me . It's a step by step introduction w other dogs. Asking her to sit and saying good behavior ( her key word) she is awarded a treat. It includes LOTS of patience but not impossible



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[dogmom]

actually no, Sono - that is a myth - dogs do not work to please...some dogs tend to be more affiliative with people because that is how they have been bred - and some dogs are more independent because that is the breed <or breed mix in either case> - background. The Husky is a great example of an independent breed because of their background. The Border Collie and Golden Retriever are examples of dogs that have been-BRED - to be strong partners with people in order to do the work that they do, and so, since both that work- herding and birds, respectively, pairs up with working with people in a certain way, all that has become reinforcing for those breeds.

But dogs do not desire "to please " or not "to please" people. All dogs learn based on on what works for them in that moment and if that happens to -also - be working with a person, than that's what happens. It has nothing to do with "pleasing" someone or not. This is one of the many types of training and behavior conversations we have at the shelter when the behaviorist I work with <she is program manager> has us get together for meetings.

 

[dogmom]

One of the others things I discuss as a trainer is the use of the word "No".
I do not advocate that because it doesn't give the dog anything else to do instead.
How I train - and how we work in the shelter with all dogs - is - teach the dog what you WANT her to do and reinforce that.

One of my Rotties is dog-reactive. What I do is try and prevent the issue altogether, obviously, but also re-direct and reinforce what I want - I want her attention on me. Not all the time, but I want her to learn to check in with me.
Checking in with me needs to be -more- reinforcing than reacting to that other dog. So I start reinforcing checking in with me in less distracting situations and go from there. Also, I do my best to avoid a tight leash. Tight leash causes tension in the line, tension that may end up being associated with the situation involving the other dog. Same reason why jerking the collar <"corrections"> can backfire on you.

I teach cues <as opposed to commands> from the beginning regardless of anything else. The more the dog has learned to work with you, and gets positive reinforcement from you, the more she will re-direct to you and learn how to learn. With my 8 week olds, I teach them to focus on me regardless of what they're doing, where they may otherwise in terms of training behavior....if they come to me, if they look at me, if they bring me something, if they look back at me as they're moving away - I always try to find some -small thing- that I can reward. And I use a lot of food - but a reward does not have to be food. It can be what's called a "life reward" - getting to go outside, to go play with someone, to get out of the car or the crate...to go back IN the crate <if I've made the crate association wonderful> etc.

 

[Jiro]

Breeds do matter, there are working breeds that will please their owners and then there are some that could care less. Try Training a Husky... they are not ones to please their owners. All breeds are different, need different training and some will only learn so much and still they really dont learn.

well - that is a misconception like husky is known to be aloof and rottweiler is known to be aggressive and so on.

that's incorrect. all dogs are the same in terms of behavior. what separates breeds from each other is their biological advantage.

 

[Jiro]

I been reading articles, it had new and old methods . The old method is out and in with the new . One was snapping the leash like you do with the reign on a horse, but that is old it create the animal to become more aggressive .

I been working with mine , taking baby steps , I met some dog owners willing to practice with me . It's a step by step introduction w other dogs. Asking her to sit and saying good behavior ( her key word) she is awarded a treat. It includes LOTS of patience but not impossible



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the leash method is commonly misused and misapplied. it's all about how you use the leash and when to use it.

remember - when you work with your dog, half of the training is about your dog and the other half is about you. you need to train yourself to be strong, consistent, and patient.

imagine a teacher teaching a class. it all comes down to teacher's personality, right? same thing.

 

[Rio]

the leash method is commonly misused and misapplied. it's all about how you use the leash and when to use it.



remember - when you work with your dog, half of the training is about your dog and the other half is about you. you need to train yourself to be strong, consistent, and patience.



imagine a teacher teaching a class. it all comes down to teacher's personality, right? same thing.

Right


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[Eater of Worlds]

I've never used my dog's name to mean "come to me". I train that behavior to the word come. My dog's names are used to get their attention. I say my dog's name, that means I want the dog to pay attention to me in preparation for what I'm going to ask of him.

Many, many people use the name to get the dog to come to them. If you do that, then why bother teaching recall using a different command? And then you'd have to use another command to gather their attention. So you'd use Sparky for come and come to get their attention? Incidentally, dogs aren't attached to their names like people are, which is why it's so easy to change a dog's name. It's just another command for them. So, I use come as recall, their name to get their attention, and if I want the dogs to stare at me with all their concentration I teach them "watch."

 

[Konijnen]

Incidentally, dogs aren't attached to their names like people are, which is why it's so easy to change a dog's name. It's just another command for them.

My dog never caught on to his name as a puppy. Nor do some people - he is often called dexter rather then baxter after I tell people his name. Guess he looks like a serial killer.

 

[Bebonang]

I could see what Cesar Millan had been teaching is the people's emotions. He is trying to teach people what they are doing to the dog(s) when they are not at calm or positive attitude. He is a trainer and also dog psychologist. That is why he has to interview people about their pets who might be out of control or shy or afraid or agressive, etc. He is looking at people, not dogs with their emotions. That is all what he is trying to tell us. Yes, he was depress on his personal life with his divorce and his dog, Daddy, who passed away. His hair is gray now. He has two children (one boy and one girl). I don't know if he had more than two children but that is all he have. He has a large ranch in the desert in California and let the dogs run freely on his property. He also have horses there to just explore around his ranch. After the depression and not be committed suicide which he was lucky that stop his depression over suicide, he is doing fine. He love the ranch so much that he is happy right there. He is very much Mexican. He is enjoying his new dogs that are with him. Life is good to him. Just leave him alone. I like him anyway.

 

[dogmom]

Actually the Rottweiler is not "aggressive" as an overriding characteristic - from the AKC Breed Standard for Temperament:
<begin quote>:

"Temperament
The Rottweiler is basically a calm, confident and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. A Rottweiler is self-confident and responds quietly and with a wait-and-see attitude to influences in his environment. He has an inherent desire to protect home and family, and is an intelligent dog of extreme hardness and adaptability with a strong willingness to work, making him especially suited as a companion, guardian and general all-purpose dog.

The behavior of the Rottweiler in the show ring should be controlled, willing and adaptable, trained to submit to examination of mouth, testicles, etc. An aloof or reserved dog should not be penalized, as this reflects the accepted character of the breed. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs should not be faulted.

A judge shall excuse from the ring any shy Rottweiler. A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge. A dog that in the opinion of the judge menaces or threatens him/her, or exhibits any sign that it may not be safely approached or examined by the judge in the normal manner, shall be excused from the ring. A dog that in the opinion of the judge attacks any person in the ring shall be disqualified. "<end quote>

 

[Eater of Worlds]

I think this may have been stated already, but Rotties were never bred to be simply guard dogs. They were a Roman breed, used as draught dogs and drovers. They interbred with Swiss breeds, which is why the Rottweiler and Greater Swiss Mountain Dog and Bernese Mountain Dog (among other breeds) look so similar, they are all black with red (and some have white in the classic mantle pattern, which is also seen on Boxers and surprise! Both Boxers and Rotties have a common breed ancestor).

This interbreeding with other dogs that were in the area that Rotties were and were also used in Roman camps (they had different dogs for guarding and working different jobs like herding and being flock guardians) gave them the flexibility to be used in a variety of things. So not only did they pull carts (draughts) and push cattle and sheep around (drover) they started to protect the butchers. That's how they became popular as guard dogs, but they aren't merely guard dogs, their behavioral qualities are different.

Based on all of that, Rotties need to have an even temperament. Any dog with a strong protective instinct requires an even temperament to balance that out and make them function well as dogs. So many people consider that protective instinct to be aggression, so they try and breed for bad traits in the dogs that they think the dogs are supposed to have. Hell, even guard dogs bred for it (like lines of Belgian Malinois bred for police or military work) have a goal of even temperament in breeding. That's because an aggressive dog can be a very unsafe dog in excitable situations. Police dogs also tend to live with their handlers in a family home with other pets and with unpredictable kids that make random weird often loud noises. An aggressive dog is not going to do well there, but one with a solid, even temperament will.

Also, any halfway decent trainer is training the owner to deal with their dogs, it's not limited to Cesar at all. It's actually much harder when you have training places that allow you to send your dog away for intensive training and you're not with them. The dog comes home, you do it all different and the training falls apart, plus the dog has to learn that you're the one commands come from, not just the trainers at the dog schools. My breeder and many others in my breed won't let you have one of their puppies if you plan to send them away to obedience or behavioral modification camp because it's just one big steaming pile of dung in regards to how it ends up for the most part. Some are ok with sending the dogs to hunting camp where a dog that you've trained at home for obedience and you have a good working relationship with gets sent to hunting camp to learn basic hunting skills. Some people want more training than what weekend trips to hunting areas can provide, but only well trained dogs to begin with get to go to these camps and you have to choose them wisely. Most require you to come for a weekend before the dog is allowed to go home, so the trainers can work with the humans about what has been done. I'm still unsure if that is something I'd ever do with my dogs, because of how many problems you can get from training camps done without the owners there.