California School for the Deaf - Crappy Education?

[Banjo]

I wanted to start a new thread that focuses on the problems surrounding the deaf schools, which is why I'm including 4 reports on two different schools for the deaf in California. I want all of you to see that the students are about the worst performers when it come to writing tests. Therefore, it give me the impression that students really don't value education as much as they should, nor they are just not educated enough.

One is on CSDF and one is on CSDR. From what I've seen in these two reports, it's either that the students are mentally challenged or neglected by the teachers.

Deaf students are not mentally challenged, they aren't supposed to be. But the schools for the deaf often put the label on them as a loophole or something like that to avoid problems getting funded by the government. In fact, most of the students at CSD schools are labelled Socio-economically Disadvantaged, English Learner (EL) Students, Special Education Students. Special Education students are often neglected when it come to being educated properly.

The students are far, far below basic or average. Not something to be proud of, changes are needed. Bi-Bi education is a failure, it doesn't work. The school I used to attend use it, and students aren't doing any better, in fact I believe they are doing worse.

Here's all of the reports on the two schools, one HSEE and one STAR result each school.

Please feel free to share your opinion.

To read the STAR results from CSDF, click here.
To read the STAR results from CSDR, click here.

 

[Banjo]

I feel that it is very important to spread awareness that deaf students are being neglected when it come to getting an education.

Both the parents and schools need to make some changes.

 

[Gemtun]

One is on CSDF and one is on CSDR. From what I've seen in these two reports, it's either that the students are mentally challenged or neglected by the teachers.

I need to defend some teachers. Some of my friends were teachers at CSD schools and walked away, disturbed at what was going on there. It is not the teachers, but SYSTEM.

Granted it is not perfect but it takes a system to change system, not blame it on teachers but adminstrationers, state government, board, etc.

I did somehow met many CSD alumni and they turned out brillantly but yes the system is flawed.

 

[javapride]

banjo i understand and respect your stand on this issue and i thank you for sharing ur opioion im a CSDF 1991 graduate here and yes some are being pacified and some are just being totally ingored some of us were lucky to even have better english skils but think abt this ok ?? CSDF and CSDR are NOT the only ones with bad education it also happens in hearing schools who are teaching thier kids in phonics mode as well, its NOT just the understanding of how to deal with kids who are being neglected and or just used in the english as a 2nd langague, lemme tell u this Honolulu School for the Deaf also has a Crappy education too, none for the worse my partner's family didn't think she had something better going for her life cuz of this... so please do us a favor and do not single out the two deaf Schools and think of the broad spectrum of the schools not just those two... and i really REALLY do not want to debate this anyfuther just use the respect factor and use ALL schools and NOT just California School for the Deaf ok? thanks

 

[Banjo]

Meg, I can understand how some teachers feel about the system. I used to attend a school for the deaf and several deaf teachers had expressed how disappointed they are with the system. Even some said that Bi-Bi method is pretty disappointing.

I did somehow met many CSD alumni and they turned out brillantly but yes the system is flawed.

From what I believe, students who graduate from deaf schools often end up having to take extra courses and more to improve and then they'll become more successful and obtain better jobs. But some people are just lucky to become successful despite the poor education at the schools. But it's likely that MOST students aren't successful from these schools for the deaf. Just a few out of many turn out good. You said you've met many CSD alumnis, but the thing is... how many of them were from the same year?

I'm just curious.

Javapride, as I said earlier... many deaf schools are suffering the same problems. I only used the CSD as an example, that's all. We have the same problem in Canada too. It's also likely that a lot of school records in deaf schools are sealed due to embrassment. The only reason why I was able to access the CSD results was because it's the law to release these information to the public. Not all states do the same.

Before, CSD wouldn't release these information to the public since they weren't required to.

 

[Vance]

Banjo, some hearing students and their educations in different states included California are far, far worse than these deafies in CSD.

It is not about CSD at all... like what Meg said, it is all about system, administrators, and other things. I saw it all myself when I worked as one-to-one specialist. That's one of few reasons why I applied a position in Sweden to find out about their educations last summer. I came to the conclusion that education system itself is pathetic when compared to Sweden and other countries. Teachers or CSD have nothing to do with this issue. To my understand that Texas's education is two or three times worse than California.

 

[deafdyke]

Socio-economically Disadvantaged, English Learner (EL) Students, Special Education Students. Special Education students are often neglected when it come to being educated properly.

The students are far, far below basic or average. Not something to be proud of, changes are needed. Bi-Bi education is a failure, it doesn't work.

Banjo, I agree....there needs to be changes. But how do we know that it's the educational philosophy which is causing the problems? Poor kids and ESL kids have lower acheivement scores then do rich/middle class kids or kids who speak English as a first language. I am not surprised that English reading and writing levels are not top notch. Many if not most ESL students do not have great English skills....it's like the way I can stumble along in French and have a conversation, BUT I am not totally fluent in it...I don't know the slang, and the syntax is hard for me. A native French speaker would probaly look at my French grammer and think that it was written by a child instead of a 25 year old. Also poor kids tend to have less involved parents...which significently affects performance levels! It might not be a methodology thing....but rather the socialogical subgroup which is resposible for the sucess of the methodolgy. There are a lot of rich and middle class parents/families who do well at the oral approach, but that doesn't mean that the oral approach WORKS...it just means that perhaps the socilogical subtype and the methodology matches...like families who are the type who give their kids toys to increase their SAT scores, might be really really attractd to auditory -verbal and be sucesful at A-V b/c it fits them! Make sense?

 

[Banjo]

Banjo, some hearing students and their educations in different states included California are far, far worse than these deafies in CSD.

Magatsu, the fact remains the same... hearing students in the same county are doing far, far better than most of the deaf schools in the USA and Canada. The county CSDF is in has an average of 76% passing students while only 13% at CSDF passes. The county where CSDR is has an average of 72% in math and 74% in English, while only 8% were able to pass in English and 16% in math at CSDR. CSDF is barely better with 34% in math and 18% in English.

It doesn't help to compare the worst hearing schools to the best hearing schools, because the deaf students are still worse off whether you like it or not. Mind you, I DID attend a school for the deaf and worked as a peer helper. I had learned a lot about how these schools are handled and it's very disturbing. Teachers are also part of the problem, believe it or not. I've seen DEAF teachers who neglect their responsibilities on teaching the subjects. In fact, one of the English teachers I had tried to force the students to learn ASL poetry while we should had been learning English instead.

Yet, the teachers aren't the problem? People keep pushing the Bi-Bi approach into schools only to find that it's worthless. The administrators aren't solely responsible for what they had done to the schools, the Deaf advocates are also responsible. They pushed so hard to get the Bi-Bi method into the schools while there was ABSOLUTELY nothing to back it as a successful method. There are also absolutely NO facts, statistics, studies, etc backing up that teaching ASL in English classes create literate students.

I am not Anti-ASL, but I am very inflexible when it come to teaching English. In order to teach English, you have to use English. There's no substitute for it. In order to improve the deaf education, you have to keep the politics out of it.

That goes for Deaf Culture. Why?

Some of you don't want children to be forced into to Christian, Islamic, Jewish teachings. I don't want my children to be forced into Deaf Culture teachings. That's something I can do myself at home, not at school. I had deaf studies at my school and I didn't find it interesting. Mainly because they couldn't find anything new to discuss every session.

Like I said, keep politics out of it. It's not needed. The deaf students deserve the best education possible. The Deaf advocates often forget that, because they are screaming about the lack of ASL in classrooms, but not the education itself.

Understand? Please don't underestimate me when it come to deaf issues. I can rip through them like some people can rip a phonebook in half. Believe me, I do understand the problems surrounding these since I've grown up around it.

 

[Vance]

*shrugs* that's your opinion and I respect yours. Nothing more or less than that.

As I said before, I saw it all. I worked as one-to-one specialist with both hearies and deafies in both schools (hearing and deaf) for few years. But that's true that we need to pull the politics out of education but under Bush, it will be virtually impossible. We shall see in next 4 years, I guess.

 

[Reba]

...That's one of few reasons why I applied a position in Sweden to find out about their educations last summer. I came to the conclusion that education system itself is pathetic when compared to Sweden and other countries...

Interesting. A couple years ago, a lovely young lady I know came from Sweden to South Carolina to study ASL and Deaf education because she was very disappointed with Deaf education in her country. I guess the grass is always greener....

 

[Vance]

Interesting. A couple years ago, a lovely young lady I know came from Sweden to South Carolina to study ASL and Deaf education because she was very disappointed with Deaf education in her country. I guess the grass is always greener....

I don't have enough information about deaf education in Sweden. I was talking about general education system in Sweden (I need to be clear about that, sorry). This summer, I plan to find out more about deaf education. I know one swedish teacher who is working at deaf school in Sweden told me that deaf education needs to improve some more.

Back to Banjo's topic: this article is quite good, definitely need to check out: http://www.ashoka.org/fellows/viewprofile3.cfm?reid=96508

Edit: Reba or anyone, if you are interesting in this Sweden/Bi-Bi stuff, I would recommend you to check this book out: Educating Deaf Children Bilingually

 

[Banjo]

Back to Banjo's topic: this article is quite good, definitely need to check out: http://www.ashoka.org/fellows/viewprofile3.cfm?reid=96508

The website refused to allow me in. :-/

 

[Nesmuth]

I've always known CSDR to be anything than a real school for the deaf.

I've got 9 yrs experience dealing with many clients who were bred in this so called school. This is no different from Ohlone College.

Richard

 

[Banjo]

*shrugs* that's your opinion and I respect yours. Nothing more or less than that.

As I said before, I saw it all. I worked as one-to-one specialist with both hearies and deafies in both schools (hearing and deaf) for few years. But that's true that we need to pull the politics out of education but under Bush, it will be virtually impossible. We shall see in next 4 years, I guess.

I saw it all too as well. I attended one from grade 7 to 12. I've even snuck around the school to find out what goes on because they don't want the students to find out about the problems surrounding the deaf education.

The school I attended, there were two sections of the secondary school. The deaf section was under the provincial government while the hearing section was under the Halton (region) school board.

I can say that the Halton-controlled section was better handled, even several deaf students take some classes in there due to lack of advanced placements in the education.

How would the problems be linked to Bush? This has gone on for decades with a lot of rigid politics at play. As I said, this is a problem in Canada too as well. But now, it's getting even worse because of the politics surrounding it and it's not just Bush... it's the Deaf militants too. People need to stop treating the deaf students as if they were guiena pigs. They keep making up all sort of educational methods with nothing to support it. That's what I'm sick of seeing it.

Deaf schools long has been a source of expertiments, and most of them are failures. Enough with the experiments... educate them instead!

 

[Banjo]

Banjo, I agree....there needs to be changes. But how do we know that it's the educational philosophy which is causing the problems?

Well... it's easy to tell when the educational philosophy is causing problems is when the English teachers are requiring the students to express themselves using ASL poetry... which I was required to do so in grade 11. I'm grateful that I only had him for grade 11. This English teacher was a big ASL advocate and would criticize students if they had signed incorrectly... and no... he wasn't too kind when he did that.

Poor kids and ESL kids have lower acheivement scores then do rich/middle class kids or kids who speak English as a first language.

We once had an exchange student from Sweden, her first language was Swedish while she had English as her second language and she beat everybody out at my school on the honour rolls, how about that?

Being poor is no excuse for being illiterate, I wasn't rich either. In fact, we were kinda pretty poor at times. Yet I managed to get through with it. Now, about the rich students... it's a myth many deaf advocates tend to use. In fact, I had several classmates whose parents you would consider to be above middle-class or more; yet they often got C or D on their English tests, sometimes F.

Parents need to be involved with their children's literacy development, the first 5 years is the most crucial. Yet many parents neglected this because they gave up too quick and put them in deaf schools thinking it'll be a quick solution. Also, many parents are often told way too much misinformation on how to educate a deaf child. I've seen too much.

Many if not most ESL students do not have great English skills

ESL students? Most deaf children are supposed to have English as their first language since their parents are hearing. There's no excuse for this, ASL is rarely a deaf child's first language to begin with. They often start to pick up ASL when they start attending the schools.

....it's like the way I can stumble along in French and have a conversation, BUT I am not totally fluent in it...I don't know the slang, and the syntax is hard for me. A native French speaker would probaly look at my French grammer and think that it was written by a child instead of a 25 year old.

Well, Americans speak English, not French. So yeah, I would expect that to happen to me too if I tried to speak French because I didn't grow up with it.

Also poor kids tend to have less involved parents...which significently affects performance levels!

Actually, it's the same with middle-class and rich parents when it come to deaf children. I see it all of the times. Many of the students at the school I used to attend had rich parents, yet they weren't doing too well.

It might not be a methodology thing....but rather the socialogical subgroup which is resposible for the sucess of the methodolgy.

Of course, it's not just the methods. Parents need to get more involved with their children rather than sending them off to deaf schools and get to see them on the weekends, sometimes not at all because they may be sleeping at friends' places.

like families who are the type who give their kids toys to increase their SAT scores, might be really really attractd to auditory -verbal and be sucesful at A-V b/c it fits them! Make sense?

A child should only be rewarded for working hard. Rewards do make a child feel important and appreciated which give them the inspiration to do more and that shows determination. But nowdays, too many children are just spoiled.

 

[Vance]

The website refused to allow me in. :-/

That site sometimes acted up for some reasons. It works fine at this moment. Try and click it.

Speaking of Bush, I am not saying that the problems be linked to Bush... I was saying that I don't think we can pull the politics out of education under his term due to few new bills.

Speaking of this issue, well, my solution to this problem: if I happen to have a deaf child... either way, homeschooling or move to Sweden. I absolutely refused to send my future child (if deaf) to mainstreamed schools. By that, I mean if nothing changes in either way deaf or hearing schools.

 

[Crazymanw00t]

Banjo,

I will never let anything to rip off or put ASL lower than English. ASL is very important for deaf world even to hard hearing world. They still must have signing language to communicate.

If world was full of ASL language and those deaf school will do better than hearing school. It is no different. We are deaf and we lost our advangte with hearing.Hearing people can hear english for everyday and every hours. and We can't help it just because we are deaf.

We can't control deaf people to act like hearing people.

If we give more english courses or hire PhD teacher in deaf schools and they will be still below than average high schools. Just because of that we couldn't hear english everyday.

One more thing many deaf school never gave their best on standard tests. It is best if you go and visit every deaf school and compare with overall thing. I am sure that you will say CSDF is best school compare with all deaf schools.

 

[Banjo]

Banjo,

I will never let anything to rip off or put ASL lower than English. ASL is very important for deaf world even to hard hearing world. They still must have signing language to communicate.

English is the primary language, period. Like it or not. You use it far more often than you use ASL. If not, then how come you read the bible which is in English, and what about Alldeaf? You're reading and typing entirely in English. You read English everywhere, even the street signs are in English.

If world was full of ASL language and those deaf school will do better than hearing school. It is no different. We are deaf and we lost our advangte with hearing.Hearing people can hear english for everyday and every hours. and We can't help it just because we are deaf.

I doubt that since the teachers at my school used ASL to teach. You may be at a disadvantage when it come to hearing. But you also can make it up by reading and writing more which is what I do.

We can't control deaf people to act like hearing people.

Who said anything about controlling the deaf people? I'm only talking about how the educational system should be reformed.

If we give more english courses or hire PhD teacher in deaf schools and they will be still below than average high schools. Just because of that we couldn't hear english everyday.

But the problem is, a lot of deaf students aren't functionally literate enough to take basic or proficient English courses.

One more thing many deaf school never gave their best on standard tests. It is best if you go and visit every deaf school and compare with overall thing. I am sure that you will say CSDF is best school compare with all deaf schools.

That's inexcusable, I already gave you the test results. They're pretty AWFUL. Sure, some schools are worse... but CSD is pretty bad too. Most deaf schools are bad to begin with. But only if it was that easy to get access to all of the test results from each state as it was to get them from California.

 

[Vance]

I paged my mother to see if she can pull some information about other deaf schools. It will be Texas, New Mexico, Vermont and Florida. I don't know if she can do that or not but I will find out soon or later.

 

[Banjo]

I paged my mother to see if she can pull some information about other deaf schools. It will be Texas, New Mexico, Vermont and Florida. I don't know if she can do that or not but I will find out soon or later.

I'll love to see these information, it would be wonderful if your mother can get these information.