ASL student attending Deaf event

Thank you FF for understanding that I am here to learn.
 
Silentwolfdog said:
I know that foreign spoken language is okay with hearing people because it is still accessible to them whether they understand it or not. Deaf people do not have that luxury.

My question now is... if foreign sign language was used at deaf event, is it okay? I hope it is! Because everyone who have set of eyes will have 100% access to it, whether they understand it or not where spoken language is not.

Anyhow I think it is plainly clear that hearing norms or rules do not apply when it comes to deaf culture because it is two very different cultures. I do not think it's double standard, it's just cultural difference. Deaf people do not have access to spoken language so why would they make events where voice is allowed? Then what's the point of deaf event/social if deaf people arrive to scene where they do not have 100% access? ( I see term 'social' and 'event' as same thing). That would just make me scratch my head also kinda make me not wanting to attend such event because I live through it everyday in hearing world already.
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Just because I can hear language doesn't mean I can understand it or converse in it. Just because hearing people can see ASL doesn't mean they can understand it or converse in it. Accessiblilty is not only the ability to use language but the ability to learn it. Just because someone can hear a person speaking in Italian doesn't mean they understand it or can follow a conversation in it.
 
rockdrummer said:
Just because I can hear language doesn't mean I can understand it or converse in it. Just because hearing people can see ASL doesn't mean they can understand it or converse in it. Accessiblilty is not only the ability to use language but the ability to learn it. Just because someone can hear a person speaking in Italian doesn't mean they understand it or can follow a conversation in it.
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A little off topic but...

This is exactly how I explain the CI to strangers. Yes, my daughter can hear you speaking, but no, she doesn't know the language well enough to understand what you are saying all the time. She still has to learn it.
 
rockdrummer said:
You must keep in mind that you can not just snap your finger and learn a language. There may be hearing people at deaf socials and deaf events that are still learning to sign and may have to fall back on spoken language at times. That doesn't mean they are hiding anything or making snide remarks about deaf people. I work in a very diverse office where there are many people from different cultures. Some of the people get into their groups and speak in their native language. I don't feel threatened by that nor do I have a natural reaction that they are trying to hide anything. They are using their natural native language and nobody should feel offended by that nor should they be deprived of that. That should apply to all cultures and all languages including deaf culture and ASL. IMHO.
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But I KNOW English BUT no matter how hard I try, it is not as accessible to me as it is to hearing people. I get left out and I am very very fluent in English. That's the whole point.

Hearing people are is capable of learning ASL just and once they do, it is accessible to them but many deaf people are fluent in English we still get left out as if it was a foreign language to us because we CANT hear it being spoken like hearing people do. In order to get full access to English, one must have normal hearing so ASL, BSL or any other signed languages are the only languages fully accessible to us, deaf people.

Just try to think about it and see where we are coming from. Everyday we are always left out and missing out and going to a Deaf socials are the only times we arent left out so if hearing people who are know ASL or want to learn ASL purposely not sign while using their voices, deaf people are back in the same place we were in our daily lives.

Hope that makes sense?
 
shel90 said:
But I KNOW English BUT no matter how hard I try, it is not as accessible to me as it is to hearing people. I get left out and I am very very fluent in English. That's the whole point.
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I get it Shel. I am not fluent in ASL but I am trying to get there. Should I exclude myself from deaf events and socials because I may have to rely on my voice which might offend someone?
 
rockdrummer said:
I get it Shel. I am not fluent in ASL but I am trying to get there. Should I exclude myself from deaf events and socials because I may have to rely on my voice which might offend someone?
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That is not what I am saying. You can learn the language..but when you do learn it, it will become accessible to you because you have vision but any spoken languages will never be accessible to us no matter how fluent we become in them.
 
shel90 said:
That is not what I am saying. You can learn the language..but when you do learn it, it will become accessible to you because you have vision but any spoken languages will never be accessible to us no matter how fluent we become in them.
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I do understand that Shel. My point is that just because something is accessible doesn't mean you know or understand it. It doesn't become accessible after you learn it. The reason you have the ability to learn it is because it is accessible. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
rockdrummer said:
I do understand that Shel. My point is that just because something is accessible doesn't mean you know or understand it. It doesn't become accessible after you learn it. The reason you have the ability to learn it is because it is accessible. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Spoken English was never accessible to me through the air. I learned it by reading and a few one-on-one conversations with hearing people.

I understand where you are coming from but if hearing people who know ASL go to a Deaf event or social and decide not to use it around Deaf people, that's considered offensive..that is what everyone is trying to explain.
 
shel90 said:
Spoken English was never accessible to me through the air. I learned it by reading and a few one-on-one conversations with hearing people.

I understand where you are coming from but if hearing people who know ASL go to a Deaf event or social and decide not to use it around Deaf people, that's considered offensive..that is what everyone is trying to explain.
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And I do get that and I do respect that. My point is what about the poor slob (me) that is struggling. I would mean no offense if I had to use my voice but it seems that offense would be taken by some. Should I not go to deaf socials or events until I am fluent in ASL for fear of offending people?
 
rockdrummer said:
And I do get that and I do respect that. My point is what about the poor slob (me) that is struggling. I would mean no offense if I had to use my voice but it seems that offense would be taken by some. Should I not go to deaf socials or events until I am fluent in ASL for fear of offending people?
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Hey, I used to be in your shoes when I started learning ASL at the age of 25. I was told that not signing was offensive so I just did what I did growing up, spoke with deaf people on an one on one basis using the limited ASL I had at the time and just observed large group conversations until my expressive skills in ASL were ready.
 
shel90 said:
Hey, I used to be in your shoes when I started learning ASL at the age of 25. I was told that not signing was offensive so I just did what I did growing up, spoke with deaf people on an one on one basis using the limited ASL I had at the time and just observed large group conversations until my expressive skills in ASL were ready.
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Maybe what I will do is go to the social and just see how people are interacting. Maybe introduce myself and tell them I have a deaf son and that I am still learning ASL then see what happens.
 
rockdrummer said:
And I do get that and I do respect that. My point is what about the poor slob (me) that is struggling. I would mean no offense if I had to use my voice but it seems that offense would be taken by some. Should I not go to deaf socials or events until I am fluent in ASL for fear of offending people?
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You can speak if you have to, but try to sign as much as you can. Don't come there and treat it as your everyday thing.

If a wedding require people to dress their best dress or dress formal, and you don't have any clothes that is formal or can't afford it, no big deal. But if you could afford formal clothing or have something something nice to wear at home but chose not to wear it because of your attitude toward it, then you are being disrespectful (as a wedding a special event and you are trying to lower that standard).

if they knew how you feel, they will think you are being rude. Other than that, more likely they will think you probably can't afford it or something.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
You can speak if you have to, but try to sign as much as you can. Don't come there and treat it as your everyday thing. ........................
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That is reasonable and I would not go there assuming anything or having any pre-concived notions. There is a social near my house on this Saturday. Despite what some people have said I think I will go anyway.
 
It is extremely rude to attend an event identified as a Deaf gathering and refuse to sign no matter the hearing status of the person to whom you are speaking. An ASL student can be presumed to know at least a fundamental amount of the language if the instructor is requiring attendance as part of the learning process. They should be using what language they know and taking advantage of the opportunity to learn more from native users of the language.

Instructors require attendance at these events to provide students with a cross cultural perspective. They hope that their students will at least be able to have the critical thought processes necessary to realize that the discomfort they feel during the experience is the exact same discomfort they impose on Deaf individuals when they refuse to sign and demand that the Deaf adhere to the hearing person's communication choice. Attending a Deaf event and not signing is not only rude and insulting to the Deaf that the event is intended to serve, it completely invalidates the reason that the requirement was made by the instructor to begin with.

Deaf events are bastions of Deaf Culture. It is a place where Deaf Culture is recognized, celebrated, and given the respect and importance it deserves. It is a part of the very life fabric of the Deaf. If you don't have the amount of empathy necessary to respect that, you have no business attempting to interact with the members of that culture.
 
faire_jour said:
He is ASKING, not arguing. He wants an answer, is that so unreasonable? He is the parent of a Deaf child, and he wants to understand the culture.
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When he continues to ask and demand explanations after they have already been provided, it comes across as arguing.
 
rockdrummer said:
Maybe what I will do is go to the social and just see how people are interacting. Maybe introduce myself and tell them I have a deaf son and that I am still learning ASL then see what happens.
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That's exactly what I told Deaf people. Funny thing is that you will probably get more respect than I did. I got a lot of dirty looks because as a deaf person, it was inconcievable (spelling?) to them that I didnt know ASL. However, I got over the obstacles just like I had to with hearing people. Being an oral-only deaf person is not easy at all most of the time. We dont really fit in anywhere.
 
jillio said:
It is extremely rude to attend an event identified as a Deaf gathering and refuse to sign no matter the hearing status of the person to whom you are speaking. An ASL student can be presumed to know at least a fundamental amount of the language if the instructor is requiring attendance as part of the learning process. They should be using what language they know and taking advantage of the opportunity to learn more from native users of the language.

Instructors require attendance at these events to provide students with a cross cultural perspective. They hope that their students will at least be able to have the critical thought processes necessary to realize that the discomfort they feel during the experience is the exact same discomfort they impose on Deaf individuals when they refuse to sign and demand that the Deaf adhere to the hearing person's communication choice. Attending a Deaf event and not signing is not only rude and insulting to the Deaf that the event is intended to serve, it completely invalidates the reason that the requirement was made by the instructor to begin with.

Deaf events are bastions of Deaf Culture. It is a place where Deaf Culture is recognized, celebrated, and given the respect and importance it deserves. It is a part of the very life fabric of the Deaf. If you don't have the amount of empathy necessary to respect that, you have no business attempting to interact with the members of that culture.
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That all makes perfect sense in the context of the OP. The conversation did go a bit astray mostly because of me trying to understand why it would be offensive to speak if necessary. I agree that flat out refusing to sign would be offensive but I don't recall anyone discussing refusal to sign.
 
Mountain Man said:
When he continues to ask and demand explanations after they have already been provided, it comes across as arguing.
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Where did I demand anything. If something is not clear or doesn't make sense to me I am going to ask for further explanation. There is nothing unreasonable about that. It's part of the learning process.
 
rockdrummer said:
That all makes perfect sense in the context of the OP. The conversation did go a bit astray mostly because of me trying to understand why it would be offensive to speak if necessary. I agree that flat out refusing to sign would be offensive but I don't recall anyone discussing refusal to sign.
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I say attend the event, tell them you are the father of a deaf son, and would like to learn more about what it is to grow up as a deaf child, and what his needs are from a deaf perspective. It worked for me over 20 years ago, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work for you now.

The OP asked if he needed to sign if he was talking to a hearing friend, so that could be interpreted as refusing to sign. Even if he is talking to a hearing friend, he needs to be using what sign he knows. To do otherwise is exclusion.
 
jillio said:
I say attend the event, tell them you are the father of a deaf son, and would like to learn more about what it is to grow up as a deaf child, and what his needs are from a deaf perspective. It worked for me over 20 years ago, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work for you now.

The OP asked if he needed to sign if he was talking to a hearing friend, so that could be interpreted as refusing to sign. Even if he is talking to a hearing friend, he needs to be using what sign he knows. To do otherwise is exclusion.
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I agree. I told people with my baby sign that "My daughter (is) deaf. We (are)hearing. We (are) learning sign." They will help you out. You might even want to bring the little one. Deaf people LOVE deaf kids!
 
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